Mavs 108, Bulls 118

[Dahlsim]

Boban's value as a locker room guy should mean he shouldn't be traded just to be traded. Dude is an invaluable locker room guy. Given that we don't have JJB and Dirk, we shouldn't just give those guys away.

I get that and he probably won't be traded for that very reason.  I'm simply looking at a guy that could create spacing gravity.   btw looking at the way Embiid draws defenders inside with Seth outside. 

https://twitter.com/TomWestNBA/status/13...7837631488

he shouldn't be traded just to be traded.

Sure, never meant to imply that.  I'm thinking get something of value, someone you might actually play at a position you actually value.  You might be able to get a draft asset instead.  
Most of Bobi's previous coaches are on record as actually finding real usefulness for him as a player including SVG, Doc Rivers and Pop.  

Right now he looks like he's wasting a season of his career in Dallas except for being a pretty highly payed cheer leader.

[Dahlsim]

Good points, dahl. 

By "emergency center," I didn't mean there was a literal emergency, lol. I mean that he is only used in blowouts, or when the five "preferred" bigs aren't getting the job done. Call it "emergency" or "token," I think we agree on the concept. 

Agreed on all points ML.   Behind a ridiculous FIVE preferred bigs he's going to be an oversized towel waver and a bit of a baby sitter in Dallas which unfortunately might waste the rest of what could have been at least a very interesting remaining career. 

[mavsluvr]

Agreed on all points ML.   Behind a ridiculous FIVE preferred bigs he's going to be an oversized towel waver and a bit of a baby sitter in Dallas which unfortunately might waste the rest of what could have been at least a very interesting remaining career. 

Yes, it's a little heartbreaking when you think about what might have been. I haven't studied any statistics to know whether this is borne out by his history, but he plays like a guy who, at some point in his basketball experience, was always in foul trouble and was coached to do whatever it took to stay on the floor.

[dirkfansince1998]

Yes, it's a little heartbreaking when you think about what might have been. I haven't studied any statistics to know whether this is borne out by his history, but he plays like a guy who, at some point in his basketball experience, was always in foul trouble and was coached to do whatever it took to stay on the floor.

That´s actually an interesting thought. I mentioned it during the game. For a player of his size he might be the worst rim protector of all time. We mentioned a couple of guys from the 80s and 90s and came to the conclusion that he would have been a lot better in a pre pace and space era. That´s also the reason why he was as dominant in europe and played more minutes in FIBA competitions than Jokic. If he can stay in the paint he is a force on both sides of the floor.
The way he plays in the NBA it feels like he is trying to avoid fouls and just gives up open layups and dunks instead. Give him the Shaq/Bynum mentality to hammer anyone that gets close to the rim and he is a more impactful basketball player but he also wouldn´t be the beloved locker room guy and fan favorit.

[mavsluvr]

That´s actually an interesting thought. I mentioned it during the game. For a player of his size he might be the worst rim protector of all time. We mentioned a couple of guys from the 80s and 90s and came to the conclusion that he would have been a lot better in a pre pace and space era. That´s also the reason why he was as dominant in europe and played more minutes in FIBA competitions than Jokic. If he can stay in the paint he is a force on both sides of the floor.
The way he plays in the NBA it feels like he is trying to avoid fouls and just gives up open layups and dunks instead. Give him the Shaq/Bynum mentality to hammer anyone that gets close to the rim and he is a more impactful basketball player but he also wouldn´t be the beloved locker room guy and fan favorit.

Interesting observations. I hadn't been familiar with Bobi's performance in Europe, but what you say makes sense. 

To a certain degree, the NBA game is just passing guys like Bobi by. Teams aren't generally built around high-scoring behemoths in the post any more. But I feel like teams could still take advantage of that sort of skill and talent even today, if only as a secondary mode of attack. The guy is just an offensive and rebounding force. It seems like he should be coachable enough to get a little more aggressive defensively if there were enough team commitment to make it work, but that's not a direction the Mavs and a lot of other teams are inclined to take in the pace-and-space era.

[KillerLeft]

It seems like he should be coachable enough to get a little more aggressive defensively if there were enough team commitment to make it work

This might be true, if the lack of “aggressive rim protection” was THE problem, but alas, it is only A problem. THE problem is his complete lack of the foot speed, agility and change of direction ability required to adequately defend the modern spread pick and roll. I think what he brings to the table is valuable enough that, were it possible to teach him these things, someone would’ve committed to doing so by now. 

Just watching him on the defensive end, I often see him react a full second after the ball has changed hands, even when it’s passed right by him. His instincts and reflexes on that end are just comically slow compared to the speed of the game, imo. This problem doesn’t really exist on the offensive end, for some reason. I think it’s because when he has the ball he’s simply performing a series of actions he has practiced and perfected tens of thousands of times. He’s so big that he doesn’t have to “react” to anything on offense, because no defender can really pressure him while he’s in position to employ his wide variety of post moves/footwork. 

Even on offense though, it’s hard for him to get that position consistently, especially once it’s clear that the Mavs are trying to play through him. And, even when he does, the post pass is one of the easier things to take away, given how the rules work now. 

Finally, we must consider what I believe to be another especially glaring weakness of his: for Boban, the simple act of running up and down the court every time the possession changes from team to team isn’t actually simple. It’s extremely difficult. Given the importance placed by modern coaches on “pace” (how quickly into the 24 second clock they are able to productively get through their first action) the result of this weakness, defensively, is that by around minute 4 of Boban’s time on the court the Mavs are literally defending 4 on 5, sometimes for an entire (quick) possession. I have seen Carlisle call timeouts to remove Boban for this reason more than once. 

Offensively, how can you base an offense around a post player when A) he has to fight for position, B) it’s difficult to get him the ball once he does and C) there’s a good chance the process of A and B doesn’t begin until 7-10 seconds into the shot clock?

[StepBackJay]

Do we have some defensive stats for Bobi? I think just like traditional centers of ole there is some value in having a guy that occupies a lot of space in the paint. Modern offenses can work around this problem, especially considering Boban can't jump more than 2 inches, but it still can work out in the Mavs favor at times. Boban easily moves people out of his space which is an advantage on both ends. I still am not a huge fan of having a situational big but at this point I'd prefer Boban take all of WCS minutes until he figures out what to do out there.

[mavsluvr]

This might be true, if the lack of “aggressive rim protection” was THE problem, but alas, it is only A problem. THE problem is his complete lack of the foot speed, agility and change of direction ability required to adequately defend the modern spread pick and roll. I think what he brings to the table is valuable enough that, were it possible to teach him these things, someone would’ve committed to doing so by now. 

Just watching him on the defensive end, I often see him react a full second after the ball has changed hands, even when it’s passed right by him. His instincts and reflexes on that end are just comically slow compared to the speed of the game, imo. This problem doesn’t really exist on the offensive end, for some reason. I think it’s because when he has the ball he’s simply performing a series of actions he has practiced and perfected tens of thousands of times. He’s so big that he doesn’t have to “react” to anything on offense, because no defender can really pressure him while he’s in position to employ his wide variety of post moves/footwork. 

Even on offense though, it’s hard for him to get that position consistently, especially once it’s clear that the Mavs are trying to play through him. And, even when he does, the post pass is one of the easier things to take away, given how the rules work now. 

Finally, we must consider what I believe to be another especially glaring weakness of his: for Boban, the simple act of running up and down the court every time the possession changes from team to team isn’t actually simple. It’s extremely difficult. Given the importance placed by modern coaches on “pace” (how quickly into the 24 second clock they are able to productively get through their first action) the result of this weakness, defensively, is that by around minute 4 of Boban’s time on the court the Mavs are literally defending 4 on 5, sometimes for an entire (quick) possession. I have seen Carlisle call timeouts to remove Boban for this reason more than once. 

Offensively, how can you base an offense around a post player when A) he has to fight for position, B) it’s difficult to get him the ball once he does and C) there’s a good chance the process of A and B doesn’t begin until 7-10 seconds into the shot clock?

Those are good, thoughtful observations, and they provide a more thorough explanation of why it is difficult to feature a guy like Bobi in today's NBA than I've seen in materials oriented toward fans. Thank you!

You may well be right that, if Bobi's limitations could be corrected by training, someone would have already taken that on. I think he can still be useful in short stints as a change of pace, or when you really need a couple of buckets. I used to wonder last season, for example, about situations in the clutch or during the bench portion of the fourth where the Mavs had a lead, just needed to be able to hold on for a few possessions, and couldn't manage to get any scores or stops. Specifically, whether, as long as the Mavs couldn't stop the opposition in any case, at least they might be able to keep scoring, and maintain their lead, by putting Bobi in for two or three minutes. But it wasn't like I thought he was going to play some kind of major role. 

Tbh, I mainly just like the guy and love watching him play, and probably look at situations where it might make sense a little sentimentally. Anyway, I agree with dahl (and you, I think) that he is unlikely to climb the big man ladder here, although he might find a spot somewhere that he could be (for example) third or fourth string, instead of sixth. I wish him the best in his remaining career!

[KillerLeft]

Anyway, I agree with dahl (and you, I think) that he is unlikely to climb the big man ladder here, although he might find a spot somewhere that he could be (for example) third or fourth string, instead of sixth.

Because he signed here as a free agent, and on a pretty reasonable contract, I kind of operate under the assumption that it was the Mavs, Carlisle included, who value him the most. But, maybe you are right.

[cow]

I agree with that, cow. In another game, I might have gone into that more, but I was getting too depressed with all the other negatives going on.

He was a bright spot for sure.

[Dahlsim]

That´s actually an interesting thought. I mentioned it during the game. For a player of his size he might be the worst rim protector of all time. We mentioned a couple of guys from the 80s and 90s and came to the conclusion that he would have been a lot better in a pre pace and space era. That´s also the reason why he was as dominant in europe and played more minutes in FIBA competitions than Jokic. If he can stay in the paint he is a force on both sides of the floor.
The way he plays in the NBA it feels like he is trying to avoid fouls and just gives up open layups and dunks instead. Give him the Shaq/Bynum mentality to hammer anyone that gets close to the rim and he is a more impactful basketball player but he also wouldn´t be the beloved locker room guy and fan favorit.

Excellent points.  I also never looked at Boban's International career.  Fascinating that he played more the Jokic there but has been increasingly consigned to a bit minutes role in the NBA.  

 For a player of his size he might be the worst rim protector of all time.

Interesting point. Guy's like Yao Ming, Gheorghe Mureșan, Rik Smits, Mark Eaton come to mind as giants by NBA standards.  Despite the slow footed nature of them all none of them jump out to memory as being as passive in rim protection as Bobi. I wish that sort of question would be asked of coaches and players sometimes in these press conferences or interviews as what they say to a Boban about this? Do they even address it?  

If he can stay in the paint he is a force on both sides of the floor.

Truth is NBA coaches like most professions tend to fall into line with patterns based on what other teams are doing around the league.  That makes sense of course except that individual exceptional talents that fall outside the trends can easily get lost. 
If Shaq in his prime played today it would take exceptional coaching to use his inside offensive dominance effectively in the space & pace era but he could easily be diminished badly in an unsuitable system.  
A player with Shaq like abilities could still represent the difference in what his team can do vs all the me too teams that are all trying to do the same thing a little better than their opponents.

[mavsluvr]

Because he signed here as a free agent, and on a pretty reasonable contract, I kind of operate under the assumption that it was the Mavs, Carlisle included, who value him the most. But, maybe you are right.

I actually don't even necessarily argue that another team would value him more than the Mavs do. I just don't deny the possibility. I tend to think Bobi is still worth more here as a player/locker room guy than as a trade asset, unless he was needed as filler for part of some bigger deal. For the folks who are itching to see all the role players traded, I don't see them aggressively shopping him, but he's certainly not untouchable.

[Dahlsim]

Interesting observations. I hadn't been familiar with Bobi's performance in Europe, but what you say makes sense. 

To a certain degree, the NBA game is just passing guys like Bobi by. Teams aren't generally built around high-scoring behemoths in the post any more. But I feel like teams could still take advantage of that sort of skill and talent even today, if only as a secondary mode of attack. The guy is just an offensive and rebounding force. It seems like he should be coachable enough to get a little more aggressive defensively if there were enough team commitment to make it work, but that's not a direction the Mavs and a lot of other teams are inclined to take in the pace-and-space era.

I see Boban in the same effectiveness range offensively  as a Joel Embiid is in Philadelphia.  Not comparable on the defensive side but offensively he can be just as efficient.  He makes free throws and could be used to set up shooters if he were gone to consistently which he never is in this offense. 

Teams aren't generally built around high-scoring behemoths in the post any more. But I feel like teams could still take advantage of that sort of skill and talent even today

There aren't many centers that have those skills to that level any more to the point that you can go to them and get high percentage 2 point attempts that combined with the increased ability to draw fouls can be just as efficient without the streakiness factor that goes with the efficiency of 3 point attempts.

Centers around the NBA don't have the skills to score with the efficiency around the paint of a Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain.  Joel Embiid is one of the exceptions.  Boban is actually  one as well.  Anthony Davis made the Lakers incredibly more efficient over night because he's a force from 2 while still able to stretch the floor. 
Most centers today are creating and scoring from out in space more.  

Reliability and efficiency are not the same thing when you consider the analytics. Steph Curry can erupt for 62 points like last night and take over the game but up until that outburst was actually not shooting well from 3 in general. 

2 pointers are less efficient overall in masse but in given offensive sequence and especially 1/2 court intensive periods of the game the inside scoring is much more reliable.

[Dahlsim]

I actually don't even necessarily argue that another team would value him more than the Mavs do. I just don't deny the possibility. I tend to think Bobi is still worth more here as a player/locker room guy than as a trade asset, unless he was needed as filler for part of some bigger deal. For the folks who are itching to see all the role players traded, I don't see them aggressively shopping him, but he's certainly not untouchable.

Why not feel out his prior coaches as I said?   Stan Van Gundy is on record as considering it the biggest mistake of his coaching career that he didn't use Boban more than he did. That was despite the fact that he had Drummond in front of him.   

Doc Rivers commented extensively on how he found he could use Boban effectively as long he understood that he had just as much chance to badly outplay his 'stretch 5' counterpart on a given night as it was to go the other way.  He would play him and see who was getting the advantage on a given rotation. 

Popovich used him effectively behind Tim Duncan so much that he set him up to get a big contract to move to Detroit.

[mavsluvr]

Why not feel out his prior coaches as I said?   Stan Van Gundy is on record as considering it the biggest mistake of his coaching career that he didn't use Boban more than he did. That was despite the fact that he had Drummond in front of him.   

Doc Rivers commented extensively on how he found he could use Boban effectively as long he understood that he had just as much chance to badly outplay his 'stretch 5' counterpart on a given night as it was to go the other way.  He would play him and see who was getting the advantage on a given rotation. 

Popovich used him effectively behind Tim Duncan so much that he set him up to get a big contract to move to Detroit.

Yes, I recall SVG saying that he wished he had played Boban more, and Pop speaking very affectionately about him. Had not heard Doc's comments, but they're interesting. If Bobi wants a bigger role and can't/won't accomplish that by adding to his game, at least incrementally, then it seems that his agent could run these avenues down and see if there is a demand for him as he is. Or, if it is the Mavs who want a trade to occur, the team could do it, of course with knowledge that shopping players can have an effect on team morale, so might not be worth it for such a popular player if they're just taking a flyer and don't really expect anything to come of it. 

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing what was available, if they think that's an avenue worth pursuing. Given the attention they give to possible trades, if they are truly interested in that, I would think they have already sent out some feelers. It's an interesting idea.

[dirkfansince1998]

Why not feel out his prior coaches as I said?   Stan Van Gundy is on record as considering it the biggest mistake of his coaching career that he didn't use Boban more than he did. That was despite the fact that he had Drummond in front of him.   

Doc Rivers commented extensively on how he found he could use Boban effectively as long he understood that he had just as much chance to badly outplay his 'stretch 5' counterpart on a given night as it was to go the other way.  He would play him and see who was getting the advantage on a given rotation. 

Popovich used him effectively behind Tim Duncan so much that he set him up to get a big contract to move to Detroit.

I think we already had this conversation a few times. In the end no former team used Boban in a more featured role so we don´t know if he could be as dominant as you think. It´s  not like Boban is getting less minutes in Dallas. Looking at his career he played in about 2/3 of all games and around 10 minutes per game. Be it SA, Detroit, LA or Dallas. The only coach that tried to give him more minutes was Brown but he also is the guy that thought Simmons, Horford and Embiid could start together.

[Dahlsim]

I think we already had this conversation a few times. In the end no former team used Boban in a more featured role so we don´t know if he could be as dominant as you think. It´s  not like Boban is getting less minutes in Dallas. Looking at his career he played in about 2/3 of all games and around 10 minutes per game. Be it SA, Detroit, LA or Dallas. The only coach that tried to give him more minutes was Brown but he also is the guy that thought Simmons, Horford and Embiid could start together.

I'm not rehashing just venting as I stated, based on what I observe.  Only going to address this because you did.  Notice for example here, I'm not even about the total career or game minutes, seven min in this case.
The minutes were token, and not at a time or in a way it could really help the team. 
He was definitely used in a more impactful role in all of the prior stops.  

In terms of minutes, look at who he backed up?  Despite the fact that he played behind Allstar centers like Tim Duncan, Andre Drummond, DeAndre Jordan/Montrez Harrell and Joel Embiid.  Average backup minutes are going to be limited for anyone in those stops.  

In Philly last stop for example he helped win playoff games and a series when Embiid was out. 
In LA, behind a 2 deep center rotation he managed to get impactful minutes ( and kicked off the Tobi/Bobi show).  
In SA, even as a rookie he made a mark behind Duncan and played so well he earned a big contract with the next team. 
In Detroit the coach is on record saying he though the minutes still should have been higher, even with the strong rotation in front of him. 

Your point on total minutes is a decent one, but here in Dallas its tokenized and even when not behind any  Allstar center rotation like prior stops, his career minutes are actually trending down when he should be getting better as a veteran player.  
More importantly, as what the 6th center, I just think he's getting badly marginalized, wasted as a player and not a good fit for the Coaches system. This despite the fact the team's offense has been consistently unreliable at a key times. 

Just suggesting they might do themselves and Boban a favor if he actually cares about his career as a player by looking for a possible trade partner. He wouldn't be the first player to find new life and minutes by landing in the right spot.  Look at Trey Burke now in Dallas. 

That's my 2cents but hey as far as he and his agent they might be happy to cheerlead, towel wave and baby sit.  Maybe he'll get more movie roles, there's always that.   

[mavsluvr]

That's my 2cents but hey as far as he and his agent they might be happy to cheerlead, towel wave and baby sit.  Maybe he'll get more movie roles, there's always that.   

LOL