2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

KP can and has utilized the ball to initiate offense for himself. RC's offense so far hasn't allowed him to do that very much. Although, when Luka goes to the bench, KP's "star" shines much brighter! Can't figure out how anyone can think otherwise after watching him play.

I dunno.

My impressions when I watch him play is that his efficiency is terrible when he's given the ball and told to create a shot.  He is unable to take advantage of smaller defenders and takes really bad contested long two pointers.  He basically takes the shots Dirk was amazing at except KP isn't very good at them. 

I still think he's a max guy for what he provides but I dont think he's that #1 option type guy on a good team.

[StepBackJay]

KP can and has utilized the ball to initiate offense for himself. RC's offense so far hasn't allowed him to do that very much. Although, when Luka goes to the bench, KP's "star" shines much brighter! Can't figure out how anyone can think otherwise after watching him play.

I dunno.

My impressions when I watch him play is that his efficiency is terrible when he's given the ball and told to create a shot.  He is unable to take advantage of smaller defenders and takes really bad contested long two pointers.  He basically takes the shots Dirk was amazing at except KP isn't very good at them. 

I still think he's a max guy for what he provides but I dont think he's that #1 option type guy on a good team.

I agree with this. Now remember this was his first year which actually was great overall all things considered. The biggest issue with KP was the fact that he got hurt in the playoffs. Everything else is forgivable.

I think KP is going to get better in those situations where he is the focus of the play or initiating the offense. I hope and pray that Rick continues with KP at the 5 which is absolutely part of the formula for unlocking his full potential on offense.

KP could improve dramatically just by having better decision making. His float sideways turn around jumper on the block is terrible and needs to be coached out of him. That will never be an efficient shot. My impression is that Rick was appeasing KP by allowing him to take a couple of post-ups a game even though they weren't efficient looks. All of this will get better with time.

[KillerLeft]

Your main concern is KP isn’t a ball handler? We have the best ball handler in the entire world. No meaningful minute of basketball should be played without the ball in his hands. Period. Obviously the MBT feels the same way. 

If this were true, and I don't think it is, then why all the dozens of quotes about needing a "secondary playmaker?" 

Did you watch the playoffs last year? I watched every minute of them from the 2nd round on. What you're describing is the Houston Rockets, and even THEY had Westbrook on the floor (as poorly used as he was). Every other successful team put multiple players on the floor during crunch time who could pressure the defense and make decisions with the ball in their hands. Every single one of them. 

In addition to his defense, what did Carlisle talk about the other day with Richardson? That's right - his ability to make plays off of the dribble. Remember Jason Terry, your account's namesake? The Mavericks didn't have a single guy on the team with even that guy's mediocre playmaking ability, which is why they drank so heavily from the Trey Burke cup against the Clippers. He was a miracle. 

I could literally write 5,000 words about how important it is to have more than one playmaker on the floor in the modern NBA, but it has been discussed so much around here over the past months that I won't. This is so obviously a concern of theirs that I'm led to believe your passionate response here is born of some misunderstanding of what I'm suggesting. I'm not wanting to take the ball out of Luka's hands at all. 

The guys you’re comparing him to aren’t even close. None of Maxi, Bertans, Ibaka and Tucker can both shoot at an elite level AND rim protect at the level of KP. 

They ARE close at the ONE skill I was highlighting in that particular bullet point, yes. The overall puzzle of all skills combined doesn't actually factor into his value unless those skills are utilized HERE on THIS team. You're saying he's paid more than those guys because he can do more, and I agree (but probably wouldn't be so quick to go to defense as his 2nd best skill, lol). The point is that if he's locked in here at a max and those skills don't get used here, I think that could be a problem, ESPECIALLY if the contract reduces flexibility, which it clearly will after next summer. 

Do you seriously think if Jokic were here that the offense would be ran through him with Luka on the court?

Yep. Especially while Luka was resting, or if (God forbid) he ever got hurt. I also think Carlisle's actions work better with MULTIPLE people involved who can create for others. I can say this would be worked into Carlisle's system without the slightest hesitation. 

You admit your post doesn’t even discuss the defensive end. Why on earth is offense even a topic of conversation? Straight from the horses mouth Rick is out there making jokes about the best offense in the galaxy and how it DOES NOT MATTER. Nothing matters without defense. KP going down means very little offensively. Without his rim protection we do not have a chance in the playoffs. It is 100% about his health.  

Another thing we've talked about a lot around here this off-season is defense. I actually think defense is the WORST thing about KP's game. I think he's legitimately a PROBLEM for the Mavs on that end. Most regular readers know this about me, so I didn't include defense in this, particular argument just to avoid beating people over the head with it (again). 

Now, he IS useful as a rim protector. But I believe that more and more, guys like him will be exposed as we move further into the spread pick and roll era. Give me a 6'10" guy who can MOVE, personally. I think KP can be used effectively, and in some situations his length will certainly come in handy, but I don't think he's the defensive cornerstone some people believe he is. He's not Gobert, for example. 

We will go as far as Luka takes us. All the talk in the FA/trade thread about sEcOnDaRy pLaYmAkEr. That’s such a small need that we can fill it with a guy off the streets like Burke for 3 mill a year. 2011 was won on defense and so will the next one. The MBT feels the same way

Well, I agree and I disagree. 

Yes, Luka is the special sauce. He's the reason we're even talking about this right now. 

Yes, Burke filled that role in the playoffs...but, they lost. Again, EVERY team who advanced had multiple playmakers. 

Yes, defense was ALSO a problem, and yes, it has been addressed. It should be better this year. 

I guess I just have a much healthier respect for how difficult it is to win an NBA championship than you do. If you honestly believe Luka, KP and 3 defenders can do it, then I'm not sure we'll find much common ground. I think THAT is super far from reality. I think that if that's the approach (it isn't, the MBT does not agree with you, thank God) then we're destined to follow a repeat of Dirk's sad, "what if" career. 

I want more. You should, too.

---

For sure in NY, and with that being the case, not sure why you don't point to RC's offense as the reason for it being less here as opposed to his ABILITY to do it. If he has the ABILITY, then it is on the coach to unlock it, especially with as much control as RC has on his team (not a bad thing, just a circumstance with which KP finds himself).

As far as here? To state again, I saw it when Luka went to the bench and KP showed much more ABILITY like he did in NY. There were moments of it with Luka on the floor, just not as much.

Ok, so we're starting to get somewhere, great. 

You're saying, I think, that you feel confident that KP can carry the water if/when Luka misses a big stretch? 

Ok, I can meet you halfway there, only I'm not as comfortable with the idea that they'd have to drastically alter their approach to accomplish this. And, (this is the big one for me) I don't think Luka being a 100% handler is ENOUGH, even when they're all healthy. 

So, if he CAN do it here, I want to SEE him do it here. That's my whole point.

---

To me he's max money because he's not only a great player, he's an asset should you need to move him for a better fitting piece. It's another reason why he's not overpaid. If you traded KP you would get much more back than Dallas gave up which was almost nothing. Dallas essentially gave up DSJ who was a bust and two first rounders?

Now if you did trade KP you also probably wouldn't get top value either because frankly its hard to get that. Anthony Davis fetched the best package recently but he was also a great player. Paul George also fetched a really nice package but in both cases the team trading them away were forced into rebuild mode to an extent. Jrue got traded for picks but NO didn't improve by trading him away.

So for KP, if you can trade him for Giannis then sure that's great (not impossible that deal could happen one day...). Bradley Beal? Maybe. I am starting to wonder if he has gotten overrated the last couple of years. Who are you going to get that is going to be an upgrade over KP?

To me you would upgrade him by a combination of the player you get back + his replacement you get in FA. Like in a magical world where you could play Gobert in the playoffs down the stretch you could talk yourself into KP for Beal and then go sign Gobert.

All that to say I think in this case the MBT pulled a rabbit out of a hat getting absolutely the best player they could realistically get, a star, at a young age for pennies on the dollar in terms of assets given up. That's fantastic. Would I be open to moving him a later date? Maybe not but I'd have to see the deal. It's not like the Bucks are going to call you up on their own to pitch Giannis. Same with Taytum, same with most other players you might rather swap with KP.

Yeah, I agree with the vast majority of this. 

I'm trying to hit an extremely small target of a point with what I'm attempting to articulate here, and apparently I'm missing the mark. 

My whole thing isn't "KP isn't a max guy," it's this:

1) The Mavs need AT LEAST two crunch time players they can play THROUGH in order to avoid getting punk'd like Harden's Rockets.
2) I'm not sure (yet) if KP can be or will be one of those guys here. I'm a little concerned about that, to the point where I wouldn't just relax and start building around Luka/KP like my future is made. 
3) Because KP already got paid, Luka's extension represents the end of several plausible ways of acquiring a high-dollar, difference making, 2nd star type of player, so if KP is NOT that guy (even if he's still "worth" a max) and they don't have someone in place who IS that guy by the time Luka signs...I just think life for the MBT gets much, much more difficult.

---

I dunno.

My impressions when I watch him play is that his efficiency is terrible when he's given the ball and told to create a shot.  He is unable to take advantage of smaller defenders and takes really bad contested long two pointers.  He basically takes the shots Dirk was amazing at except KP isn't very good at them. 

I still think he's a max guy for what he provides but I dont think he's that #1 option type guy on a good team.

This, essentially, is what I'm saying.

If he's their answer for 2nd best player and he doesn't get SIGNIFICANTLY better at creating for others, or at least for himself, I think that contract might bite the Mavs right in the ass. 

OR...they get another playmaker at either the deadline or next summer, BEFORE Luka's extension kicks in, and BOOM - they have an awesome, versatile big who gets to be the best version of Love/Bosh ever. No pressure on him at all at that point, especially on the offensive end, and you can pay him 4x the Max, for all I care.

---

Seems like I kicked up a hornets' nest with this KP stuff. 

If it's not clear by my writing, just let me state clearly that I am NOT anti-KP. 

I'm just a little worried that the top end of the Mavericks' talent profile might not be as complete as many of you seem to think.

[Mavsfan12]

Your main concern is KP isn’t a ball handler? We have the best ball handler in the entire world. No meaningful minute of basketball should be played without the ball in his hands. Period. Obviously the MBT feels the same way. 

If this were true, and I don't think it is, then why all the dozens of quotes about needing a "secondary playmaker?" 

Did you watch the playoffs last year? I watched every minute of them from the 2nd round on. What you're describing is the Houston Rockets, and even THEY had Westbrook on the floor (as poorly used as he was). Every other successful team put multiple players on the floor during crunch time who could pressure the defense and make decisions with the ball in their hands. Every single one of them. 

In addition to his defense, what did Carlisle talk about the other day with Richardson? That's right - his ability to make plays off of the dribble. Remember Jason Terry, your account's namesake? The Mavericks didn't have a single guy on the team with even that guy's mediocre playmaking ability, which is why they drank so heavily from the Trey Burke cup against the Clippers. He was a miracle. 

I could literally write 5,000 words about how important it is to have more than one playmaker on the floor in the modern NBA, but it has been discussed so much around here over the past months that I won't. This is so obviously a concern of theirs that I'm led to believe your passionate response here is born of some misunderstanding of what I'm suggesting. I'm not wanting to take the ball out of Luka's hands at all. 

The guys you’re comparing him to aren’t even close. None of Maxi, Bertans, Ibaka and Tucker can both shoot at an elite level AND rim protect at the level of KP. 

They ARE close at the ONE skill I was highlighting in that particular bullet point, yes. The overall puzzle of all skills combined doesn't actually factor into his value unless those skills are utilized HERE on THIS team. You're saying he's paid more than those guys because he can do more, and I agree (but probably wouldn't be so quick to go to defense as his 2nd best skill, lol). The point is that if he's locked in here at a max and those skills don't get used here, I think that could be a problem, ESPECIALLY if the contract reduces flexibility, which it clearly will after next summer. 

Do you seriously think if Jokic were here that the offense would be ran through him with Luka on the court?

Yep. Especially while Luka was resting, or if (God forbid) he ever got hurt. I also think Carlisle's actions work better with MULTIPLE people involved who can create for others. I can say this would be worked into Carlisle's system without the slightest hesitation. 

You admit your post doesn’t even discuss the defensive end. Why on earth is offense even a topic of conversation? Straight from the horses mouth Rick is out there making jokes about the best offense in the galaxy and how it DOES NOT MATTER. Nothing matters without defense. KP going down means very little offensively. Without his rim protection we do not have a chance in the playoffs. It is 100% about his health.  

Another thing we've talked about a lot around here this off-season is defense. I actually think defense is the WORST thing about KP's game. I think he's legitimately a PROBLEM for the Mavs on that end. Most regular readers know this about me, so I didn't include defense in this, particular argument just to avoid beating people over the head with it (again). 

Now, he IS useful as a rim protector. But I believe that more and more, guys like him will be exposed as we move further into the spread pick and roll era. Give me a 6'10" guy who can MOVE, personally. I think KP can be used effectively, and in some situations his length will certainly come in handy, but I don't think he's the defensive cornerstone some people believe he is. He's not Gobert, for example. 

We will go as far as Luka takes us. All the talk in the FA/trade thread about sEcOnDaRy pLaYmAkEr. That’s such a small need that we can fill it with a guy off the streets like Burke for 3 mill a year. 2011 was won on defense and so will the next one. The MBT feels the same way

Well, I agree and I disagree. 

Yes, Luka is the special sauce. He's the reason we're even talking about this right now. 

Yes, Burke filled that role in the playoffs...but, they lost. Again, EVERY team who advanced had multiple playmakers. 

Yes, defense was ALSO a problem, and yes, it has been addressed. It should be better this year. 

I guess I just have a much healthier respect for how difficult it is to win an NBA championship than you do. If you honestly believe Luka, KP and 3 defenders can do it, then I'm not sure we'll find much common ground. I think THAT is super far from reality. I think that if that's the approach (it isn't, the MBT does not agree with you, thank God) then we're destined to follow a repeat of Dirk's sad, "what if" career. 

I want more. You should, too.

---

For sure in NY, and with that being the case, not sure why you don't point to RC's offense as the reason for it being less here as opposed to his ABILITY to do it. If he has the ABILITY, then it is on the coach to unlock it, especially with as much control as RC has on his team (not a bad thing, just a circumstance with which KP finds himself).

As far as here? To state again, I saw it when Luka went to the bench and KP showed much more ABILITY like he did in NY. There were moments of it with Luka on the floor, just not as much.

Ok, so we're starting to get somewhere, great. 

You're saying, I think, that you feel confident that KP can carry the water if/when Luka misses a big stretch? 

Ok, I can meet you halfway there, only I'm not as comfortable with the idea that they'd have to drastically alter their approach to accomplish this. And, (this is the big one for me) I don't think Luka being a 100% handler is ENOUGH, even when they're all healthy. 

So, if he CAN do it here, I want to SEE him do it here. That's my whole point.

KL, you are a prolific poster.  I have a million things I want to say on this subject and I can't keep up.  haha.  I think that Porzingis does a lot of the things you are asking for (outside of the "get down on the post and throw him the ball" stuff that RC specifically frowns on).  Part of his limitation is that he IS a big.  Outside of Jokic, there aren't really big man creators - and I think KP has a lot of quickness/driving advantages over him.  There are hybrids, like Simmons/Lebron and even I would throw Doncic in that group.  But sometimes, I think you are pointing out the way he is used, and ignoring his positives.  On the above list of elite bigs, (if you rule out health), the only player I would want over Porzingis is Embiid and possibly Jokic.  I think KP/Towns are a wash (kp better on d, Towns better on O).  That is the list.  Well, and AD.  THAT is the list.  All the other players I would trade KP for (again, excluding health) are wings or guards.  

It has been said, but when KP/Luka are not on the floor together, or when Luka missed a stretch of games in Jan, KP thrived as a primary "star" on this team.  He was dropping 30pt double doubles with regularity.  That said, he is not asked to be a distributor on this team - and mainly because of the fact that he isn't used in the same way as Dirk where the point of his action was to post (usually high or elbow) and either take advantage of a mismatch or draw a double and kick.  That action is seldom used in the current Mavs playbook.  But KP puts the ball on the floor and does kick out passes.  Attacking cloesouts is a staple of his game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsESmdKDt5Q&ab_channel=LilShawn424

---

Where I agree with you is that the Mavs have a unique window in the next year to actually add a player that could make KP #3 on this team...  If the Mavs are able to do that, they are a dynasty.

[KillerLeft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsESmdKDt5Q&ab_channel=LilShawn424

THANK YOU!

The above video shows a secondary playmaker in action, attacking a close out by flooring the ball and finding an open shooter. Well done. 

Here's my problem. I watched maybe 97% of Mavs games last year, and I can literally only remember 4-5 of these. Hopefully, we'll see more plays like this, and maybe even see him utilized in other ways that don't require quite so much reckless abandon. 

It is objectively true that KP wasn't directly involved in the offense very often last year, especially prior to Powell's injury. I have a subjective opinion about that, which is that I find it concerning. Could he be involved more in the future? Sure, but I WANT TO SEE IT.

Anyway, even if you all don't agree with me, I hope this helps you understand why I've been such a believer in what this "cap space 2021" plan is all about. If you imagine for a second that I'm right about this, then it's easy to see how concerned I'd be at the prospect of going over the cap without having that 3rd (or 2nd) guy in place. 

I would point directly at the Mavs' approach as proof that they agree with me. But, we'll see.

---

KL, you are a prolific poster.  I have a million things I want to say on this subject and I can't keep up.  haha.  I think that Porzingis does a lot of the things you are asking for (outside of the "get down on the post and throw him the ball" stuff that RC specifically frowns on).  Part of his limitation is that he IS a big.  Outside of Jokic, there aren't really big man creators - and I think KP has a lot of quickness/driving advantages over him.  There are hybrids, like Simmons/Lebron and even I would throw Doncic in that group.  But sometimes, I think you are pointing out the way he is used, and ignoring his positives.  On the above list of elite bigs, (if you rule out health), the only player I would want over Porzingis is Embiid and possibly Jokic.  I think KP/Towns are a wash (kp better on d, Towns better on O).  That is the list.  Well, and AD.  THAT is the list.  All the other players I would trade KP for (again, excluding health) are wings or guards.  

It has been said, but when KP/Luka are not on the floor together, or when Luka missed a stretch of games in Jan, KP thrived as a primary "star" on this team.  He was dropping 30pt double doubles with regularity.  That said, he is not asked to be a distributor on this team - and mainly because of the fact that he isn't used in the same way as Dirk where the point of his action was to post (usually high or elbow) and either take advantage of a mismatch or draw a double and kick.  That action is seldom used in the current Mavs playbook.  But KP puts the ball on the floor and does kick out passes.  Attacking cloesouts is a staple of his game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsESmdKDt5Q&ab_channel=LilShawn424

---

Where I agree with you is that the Mavs have a unique window in the next year to actually add a player that could make KP #3 on this team...  If the Mavs are able to do that, they are a dynasty.

I skimmed this too fast at first and focused on the video right away. 

You seem to feel like you saw Porzingis do more of what I'm hoping to see than I saw...I hope you're right. I can tell you're eye to eye with me on all of this at least, even if you don't agree, so at least I know I didn't totally butcher the articulation of everything. I was starting to feel like I had taken some crazy pills!

[StepBackJay]

So in my view @"KillerLeft" the Mavs realistically can get another scorer which I would argue might be even more important than a strong playmaker. That player doesn't have to necessarily be a star that pushed KP to 3rd fiddle status. 

I think what you need is a guy capable of carrying a heavy scoring load on nights that KP isn't available or in the playoffs when points are much harder to get. All of a sudden wide open shots that your role players usually hit don't go in as often.

THJ and Rich can do some playmaking and scoring. Brunson can do some playmaking and scoring and we believe that Burke can contribute there as well. What you need is a guy that's proven they can do it consistently when it counts. We know Doncic can do it. I think KP can do it but then I haven't seen him much in the playoffs. I think he definitely has the stones to rise to the occasion.

I also believe that the Mavs are unlikely to be able to get a third star. Maybe Giannis shows up and we are laughing all the way to 3 championships. Assuming that doesn't happen and there isn't a Taytum for KP trade offer to come sometime later then you try to get a guy like LaVine or Hield or Jrue should he become available. I love Jrue's fit even tho he is a bit older but I think he will be hard to get.

Hield is a guy I really like as a better version of THJ. He is an elite scorer and I think a guy that gets you further than THJ. LaVine is also an elite scorer and could be gettable a year from now when he is expiring. I think a player like that combined with Luka/KP, Rick, good role players is a contending team.

[dirkfansince1998]

Honestly. If Giannis signs the supermax the best moves the Mavs can do in terms of capspace and asset management need to happen ASAP.
A THJ contract extension makes sense for both him and the team. He played the best basketball of his career next to Luka.
Same for Richardson if he is the player we all hope he can be this season. Problem is that as far as I know he isn´t eligible for an extension and probably expects a bigger contract next summer. If he opts in he is available for an extension next summer but the Mavs could only offer up to 20% more than he previously made. No reason for him to go for it if he can easily get a Grant like 4/80 deal as a FA.

No matter what they do. If the Mavs want to keep both they won´t have the capspace for another impact player.


The Mavs obviously still have the trade market but with limited assets it will be difficult to add a 3rd star or quality starter.

[madmavsgirl]

"Why I liked the Mavs Off-Season"

by MMG

Sometimes it's not what you do, it's what you DON'T do.

The Off-Season before Covid, the Mavs courted Kemba Walker, Pat Beverly and Danny Green. The Mavs whiffed of course as they often do in Free Agency. But these pursuits all felt like typical Old School Mavs moves. Pricey vets on the descent. Treadmill moves that look better on paper. That shiny package under the tree that looks so promising until you open it up. "Wes Matthews, just what I wanted. Thanks Mom"! You hope Mom has that receipt so you can take Wes back but are resigned to the fact that you are probably stuck with him for awhile.

This Off-Season I was expecting something similar. No. 18 for Danny Green? Tobias Harris? Maybe a S&T for Gallinari? You know those typical treadmill moves that scream "We are No. 8". But in the spirit of social distancing, the Mavs didn't go there. That alone makes this off-season a success. Actual thought about building a roster around your 21 year old superstar that fits his timeline. I mean we actually kept our draft picks!

There is hope my pals. It may not be a finished product, but at least it's not Wes Matthews.

[dirkfansince1998]

"Why I liked the Mavs Off-Season"

by MMG

Sometimes it's not what you do, it's what you DON'T do. 

The Off-Season before Covid, the Mavs courted Kemba Walker, Pat Beverly and Danny Green.  The Mavs whiffed of course as they often do in Free Agency.  But these pursuits all felt like typical Old School Mavs moves.  Pricey vets on the descent.  Treadmill moves that look better on paper.  That shiny package under the tree that looks so promising until you open it up.  "Wes Matthews, just what I wanted. Thanks Mom"!  You hope Mom has that receipt so you can take Wes back but are resigned to the fact that you are probably stuck with him for awhile.

This Off-Season I was expecting something similar.  No. 18 for Danny Green?  Tobias Harris?  Maybe a S&T for Gallinari?  You know those typical treadmill moves that scream "We are No. 8". But in the spirit of social distancing, the Mavs didn't go there.  That alone makes this off-season a success.  Actual thought about building a roster around your 21 year old superstar that fits his timeline.  I mean we actually kept our draft picks!

There is hope my pals.  It may not be a finished product, but at least it's not Wes Matthews.

[StepBackJay]

"Why I liked the Mavs Off-Season"

by MMG

Sometimes it's not what you do, it's what you DON'T do. 

The Off-Season before Covid, the Mavs courted Kemba Walker, Pat Beverly and Danny Green.  The Mavs whiffed of course as they often do in Free Agency.  But these pursuits all felt like typical Old School Mavs moves.  Pricey vets on the descent.  Treadmill moves that look better on paper.  That shiny package under the tree that looks so promising until you open it up.  "Wes Matthews, just what I wanted. Thanks Mom"!  You hope Mom has that receipt so you can take Wes back but are resigned to the fact that you are probably stuck with him for awhile.

This Off-Season I was expecting something similar.  No. 18 for Danny Green?  Tobias Harris?  Maybe a S&T for Gallinari?  You know those typical treadmill moves that scream "We are No. 8". But in the spirit of social distancing, the Mavs didn't go there.  That alone makes this off-season a success.  Actual thought about building a roster around your 21 year old superstar that fits his timeline.  I mean we actually kept our draft picks!

There is hope my pals.  It may not be a finished product, but at least it's not Wes Matthews.

Hilarious. It should be a concern that most of the move the Mavs want to make would have turned out terrible (Howard, Whiteside and so on).

[madmavsgirl]

Hilarious. It should be a concern that most of the move the Mavs want to make would have turned out terrible (Howard, Whiteside and so on).

True.  But they still managed to blow that money on mostly underwhelming assets.  Just look at some of moves Post-Championship until Luka was drafted.

Lamar Odom.  OJ Mayo.  Elton Brand. Chris Kaman. Derek Fisher.  Jose Calderon.  Samuel Dalembert.  Chandler Parsons.  Rajon Rondo.  Zaza Pachulia.  Deron Williams.  Harrison Barnes.  Wes Matthews.  Nerlens Noel.

Mavs absolutely can't afford to make those kind of moves around Luka.

[KillerLeft]

Mavs absolutely can't afford to make those kind of moves around Luka.

[loki]

Nerlens Noel.

I'll always have fond memories of Nerlens for turning down that $70 mil offer from Cuban. He's a true hero!

[KillerLeft]

I'll always have fond memories of Nerlens for turning down that $70 mil offer from Cuban. He's a true hero!

No kidding. 

I read here a few weeks back that he has made $9 million since declining that offer.

[SkenfromLMF]

No kidding. 

I read here a few weeks back that he has made $9 million since declining that offer.

Thank God we didn't have better hot-dogs!

[dirkfansince1998]

@"KillerLeft"

I think our discussion makes more sense in the free agency/roster moves thread.

Who else would you target next year besides Giannis or some fantasy trade that isn´t even discussed right now?

It´s basically Gobert, guys with a player option (Kawhi, PG) that are unlikely to leave, injury-prone former allstars like Oladipo or RFAs.

FA: Oladipo, Fournier, Aldridge, DeRozan, Gobert, Conley
PO: CP3, Leonard, George, Dinwindie, Powell (TOR)
RFA: Collins (ATL), Collins (POR), Allen, Markkanen, Kuzma, Robinson, Ball, Fultz, Isaac, White, OG Anunoby

I think you mentioned the Mavs need for a 3rd star and that you are not convinced that KP can be the 2nd option. If that´s the case we can only hope for another KP-like miracle trade. Only problem is that this time the Mavs don´t even have the picks to pay for a high quality player.
Remember that RoCo was traded for 2 1sts. The Magic rejected the same offer for Gordon. A difference maker / 3rd star like Jrue Holiday was traded for Bledsoe, Hill, 2 unprotected 1sts and 2 future pick swaps.
Let´s say the Mavs want to do something similar. What can they offer? They don´t have the picks. They have some solid role player on good contracts (Maxi, DFS) and expiring contracts to match salaries. Maybe one of the rookies has a good season and adds value to a potential trade package. That still wouldn´t be enough to match the Bucks offer for Jrue. Not to mention that the Mavs would basically lose their entire depth.
Meaning that we can also rule out any trade for even bigger fishes like Bradley Beal.
I guess the Mavs could try their luck and go for one of the injury-prone or overpaid guys but that´s a very risky move and you already mentioned your dislike for players like Tobias Harris.

Looking at the last few pages you basically dismissed any option that is not Giannis but you also pointed out that it isn´t Giannis or bust. Obviously a lot can happen in the next few month. Injuries, teams deciding to tank or rebuild, players declining/improving. But that´s not something the Mavs can control and I would prefer a scenario where the Mavs hold all the cards instead of hoping for some miracle.

Looking at the available free agents I don´t think any of them outside of Giannis is better than the combination of THJ + Richardson + x (Johnson + assets trade). That´s basically the best "no Giannis" scenario.
The worst case is Giannis signing somewhere else. Losing THJ, JRich. Not using any expiring contract in a trade. Ending up with one year veteran rentals to give Luka a roster that can at least make the playoffs.

[Branduil]

Your list is missing Otto Porter Jr. for player options, he'll definitely be a free agent next year.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
Who else would you target next year besides Giannis or some fantasy trade that isn´t even discussed right now?

It´s basically Gobert, guys with a player option (Kawhi, PG) that are unlikely to leave, injury-prone former allstars like Oladipo or RFAs.

FA: Oladipo, Fournier, Aldridge, DeRozan, Gobert, Conley
PO: CP3, Leonard, George, Dinwindie, Powell (TOR)
RFA: Collins (ATL), Collins (POR), Allen, Markkanen, Kuzma, Robinson, Ball, Fultz, Isaac, White, OG Anunoby

I think you mentioned the Mavs need for a 3rd star and that you are not convinced that KP can be the 2nd option. If that´s the case we can only hope for another KP-like miracle trade. Only problem is that this time the Mavs don´t even have the picks to pay for a high quality player.
Remember that RoCo was traded for 2 1sts. The Magic rejected the same offer for Gordon. A difference maker / 3rd star like Jrue Holiday was traded for Bledsoe, Hill, 2 unprotected 1sts and 2 future pick swaps. 

So, basically there are only two "special" players realistically available for cap room...Gi and Go.  If you are going to use cap room you have to give up valuable players and if you are giving up valuable players, the player you are getting HAS to be special.  BTW, SBJ, there is no world in which THJ's next contract starts at $10mm.  Bogdanovic got $18mm as an RFA in a year where few teams had cap room.  THJ at $10mm isn't close to realistic.

The good news is we will know soon enough if Gi and Go will really be free or not.  If they are free, go ahead and take your shot.  If not, keep what you have (THJ and JRich) and trade your way to the next upgrade.  I don't think Johnson's large expiring deal will bring in a star, but you might be able to upgrade your weakest starter (whoever that is).  I still think we are a team with two stars and a whole bunch of 4th/5th/6th man types in JRich, THJ, Powell, DFS, Maxi and Brunson in the 8 man.  It would be nice if WCS could live up to his potential as it would free up one of Powell or Maxi to be added to Johnson.  Much of our off-season efforts seemed directed at 4's, so my assumption is that is the position they'd most like to upgrade.

Edit:  I think it is important to remember that Dallas could have stopped at a Wright for Ariza deal, but chose to add draft compensation to move Jackson/Ariza for Johnson.  The fact they kept the deal open for an extra week means they were willing to discuss a further expansion of that deal.  Moving from Ariza to Johnson does three things for us.

1.  Johnson's $16mm is easier to trade match larger salaries
2.  The two for one opens another roster slot
3.  We arguably filled that spot with minimum wage Iwundu.  His salary plus Johnson's salary is basically the same as what Ariza/Jackson would have made.

The importance of that last point is it kept us $6 million below the tax line.  So, we can do a deal that brings back excess salary without becoming a tax paying team (which is probably important as Dallas would prefer to postpone the clock starting on future repeater tax years).  To me, all of that points to a team that is willing to deal in-season and kept the flexibility to do so.

[KillerLeft]

@"dirkfansince1998" I haven't meant to "dismiss" anything except bad contracts like Harris or bad fits (imo) like Gobert. Sorry if anything I've written comes off in that way. I definitely like discussing this stuff with you and others. 

I do prefer simply keeping the Mavs' current players over some of the options that get brought up here regularly though, partly because I think some of the Mavs are underrated, and partly because I think things change REALLY quickly in the NBA. Why commit to anything until it makes sense to do so? 

I have seen several instances of people posting an entire list of next summer's free agents and saying some variation of "if not Giannis, then who?" Well, I'm sorry, but am I the only one who thinks that's crazy? Soooo much is about to change, once they actually start playing games. 

Staying flexible (to this point) hasn't just been about signing a free agent. There are OTHER ways to make this work. Take the trade market: Who could've possibly predicted with a straight face that James freaking Harden would be on the trade block this off-season???? We like to act like the KP deal fell from heaven, but actually, stuff like that happens every year. The trick is being ready to pounce on it, imo. That trade wouldn't have been possible without the flexible position the Mavs were in at the time with the Mathews/Jordan contracts. 

And you're right - the team is a little draft-capital-poor for trades like that. But, they got Richardson this time around for Seth Curry!! I had "dismissed" him all off-season as a target for #18, but I never DREAMED they'd be able to get him for Curry, and I LOVE that deal! This is another example of something that didn't seem possible happening...these things happen. The Mavs also drafted a bunch of interesting kids, making the other value vet assets infinitely more movable in a practical way. They increased their trade positing singnificantly, imo. They definitely don't have enough to snag a guy like Harden (nor would they want him), but they arguably have just as much to offer at the trade deadline as they did for KP, if not MORE. Even if you don't believe that, they are certainly in a good enough position for it to seem crazy to me that you're upset they haven't ALREADY extended Richardson and Hardaway (that's what I thought you were saying in the other thread, but maybe not). 

And, let's say it gets to FA. Will there be a Christian Wood this year - someone who develops into a potential star that nobody sees coming at this time? Will there be a Bogdanovic - someone restricted who the smart people here will tell you "no way does team x let THAT guy go" but who ends up being VERY getable? I'd say there's a BETTER than 50/50 chance that the answer to those questions is YES. 

So, I'm sorry that this seems to make certain types of posters crazy (not my intent AT ALL) but I actually don't feel like I need a definite, chosen FA target to make this approach make sense. Maybe for the Mavs, it IS Giannis or bust, but I don't feel that way, personally. If all of the above fails, I'd simply re-sign Richardson, THJ and MAYBE even Johnson when the time came. I have a really difficult time not seeing that as the worst possible way this works out. As I said in the other thread, this doomsday scenario that you're worried about: renouncing Richardson and THJ to pitch Giannis, only to be left with nothing...I just think this is not a very likely scenario.

[KillerLeft]

I believe the ability is there for RC to figure out how to unlock...better than he has. I think the more time on the court and in practice KP has, the more it will become apparent. The question in my mind, is how much time will he get on the court and in practice if he keeps getting injured.

You might be absolutely right about the above. You are definitely right about the "staying on the court" part, and while I'm not as worried about his health (in a vacuum) as others, it does have an effect on how quickly the team learns to maximize his skills, and how quickly he and Luka learn to play together, so that's a good point. 

A lot of this debate, imo, depends on how the Mavs see the front court rotation. Unfortunately, KP is out to start the season, so we won't know right away, but in my opinion, if the Mavs STILL think the best way to utilize him is as a third option SPACER while Luka and Powell run the action together...if that's the case, that will tell me a lot about how Carlisle views Porzingis. He's a GREAT shooter, and that's a valuable role, but I don't know if I can buy it. Seems like a waste. 


Who knows, maybe there are layers to that stuff they didn't even get to last year where those actions develop into high-post face up touches for KP. I'm ready for ANYTHING, it's just that, like I keep saying, I was underwhelmed with what we actually saw last season. He's obviously a GREAT finisher of plays, both in the paint on those rolls or cuts and by shooting off of the catch.

I just really believe that the team needs more offensive creation. Richardson will help a bit in that department, but not in the kind of meaningful way I'm hoping to see (I don't think). This whole KP debate, for me, is about whether or not he's going to get in the way of adding that. Right now, he is not preventing it, but as you keep saying, they haven't successfully identified their guy yet, or gotten him to say "yes." If they don't complete that mission before the end of next summer, I believe that it will get much harder to do so, because of KP and his contract. That's all I'm saying. 

For someone like you, who believes Luka/KP are enough, this is no big deal, and I can see how you might be annoyed at how the Mavs are approaching things. For someone like me, who does NOT, it's almost like I can't even let myself start hoping for success until they get that guy. So, the approach has become my favorite team storyline, in a way.