2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[KillerLeft]

Much of the Mavs universe could be dropped into two categories:

1) "Don't blame Carlisle."

2) "It's Carlisle's fault."

EVERYONE deserves blame, but the people who blame Carlisle for too much point out his power over certain players and situations, failing to recognize that there were people with power over him. In crucial ways, he was just a part of the system, similar (but different) to guys like Green, for example. I said it on draft night: drafting Green and the rest of those rookies, to me, signified that the team was committed to build slowly and develop a team of young players. I never thought for even one second that any of them was ready to play last year (still don't think they were). If the entire success or failure of the regime was to be judged by last season's performance, then they SHOULD have traded that pick - they SHOULD have gotten a Gallo or a Crowder, somehow. 

I expect all four of those young guys to be significantly improved and more ready this year, specifically BECAUSE of how Carlisle approached their seasons. Maybe not Terry, because of his personal problems keeping him away from the team for so long, and maybe slightly less so for all because of the Covid year craziness, but I think they were "developed" as much as possible, given the circumstances, especially the one where the team had to make the playoffs. 

The direction at the TOP of the organization is what makes the least sense, to me, especially in hindsight. And, through my life, I have continuously learned one lesson, over and over: when it comes to team-like organizations like this, the only way to affect change is at the TOP. 

Changing to Nico Harrison is the TOP-most change we can expect in the near future, unless Cuban really decides to run for president, which I don't think will happen. So, there is reason for cautious optimism, imo, as long as Harrison is as qualified as we hope. 

Totally ok with Carlisle being gone now, especially in the wake of these sweeping changes. I'm not super inspired by the organization's decision to replace him with Kidd, but I'm willing to give him a chance.

[Kammrath]

EVERYONE deserves blame, but the people who blame Carlisle for too much point out his power over certain players and situations, failing to recognize that there were people with power over him. In crucial ways, he was just a part of the system, similar (but different) to guys like Green, for example. I said it on draft night: drafting Green and the rest of those rookies, to me, signified that the team was committed to build slowly and develop a team of young players. I never thought for even one second that any of them was ready to play last year (still don't think they were). If the entire success or failure of the regime was to be judged by last season's performance, then they SHOULD have traded that pick - they SHOULD have gotten a Gallo or a Crowder, somehow. 

I expect all four of those young guys to be significantly improved and more ready this year, specifically BECAUSE of how Carlisle approached their seasons. Maybe not Terry, because of his personal problems keeping him away from the team for so long, and maybe slightly less so for all because of the Covid year craziness, but I think they were "developed" as much as possible, given the circumstances, especially the one where the team had to make the playoffs. 

The direction at the TOP of the organization is what makes the least sense, to me, especially in hindsight. And, through my life, I have continuously learned one lesson, over and over: when it comes to team-like organizations like this, the only way to affect change is at the TOP. 

Changing to Nico Harrison is the TOP-most change we can expect in the near future, unless Cuban really decides to run for president, which I don't think will happen. So, there is reason for cautious optimism, imo, as long as Harrison is as qualified as we hope. 

Totally ok with Carlisle being gone now, especially in the wake of these sweeping changes. I'm not super inspired by the organization's decision to replace him with Kidd, but I'm willing to give him a chance.

TLDR: "Don't blame Carlisle."

[cow]

Kidd might be an upgrade from Carlisle from a player development standpoint.  Carlisle was way too hit or miss for who he liked and who ended up in his dog house.

[KillerLeft]

"Don't blame Carlisle."

Correct, at least not to the ridiculous point you do. 

It's telling to me that you always type Donnie/RC, as if they're one person. To me, the GM is (or should be) THE guy, not the coach. But here, Donnie has always been so milk-toast and, at times, invisible, that one is forced to latch onto either Cuban or Carlisle as a target. 

That, imo, is a problem, and probably THE problem, if there is a "the" problem.

[Kammrath]

Correct, at least not to the ridiculous point you do. 

[Kammrath]

It's telling to me that you always type Donnie/RC, as if they're one person. To me, the GM is (or should be) THE guy, not the coach. But here, Donnie has always been so milk-toast and, at times, invisible, that one is forced to latch onto either Cuban or Carlisle as a target. 

That, imo, is a problem, and probably THE problem, if there is a "the" problem.

It is hard for me to distinguish WHERE Donnie had power versus RC. That's why I do it. 

Chad Ford just ranted on that "Locked On" podcast about how coaches WANT power and how they vie for getting the guys they want so they can do their things. I could be dead wrong, but I get the strong impression that RC had Donnie's ear quite a bit. Not sure where Donnie's opinion really reigned or where it was just what RC wanted. I just don't know. So in my ignorance I say "RC/Donnie."

[dirkfansince1998]

Kidd might be an upgrade from Carlisle from a player development standpoint.  Carlisle was way too hit or miss for who he liked and who ended up in his dog house.

I think that is more about us focusing on the Mavs. Kidd was beloved by Giannis but the rest of the team wasn´t as high on him. Just need to ask Malcolm Brogdon about Kidd.

[dirkfansince1998]

Maybe Kamm should try the whole balance and reason approach that he mentioned in the Cuban discussion and apply it to his RC takes.

[mvossman]

I think this is one of the better plans I've seen so far. Not sexy, and it will piss people off, but I'd like it soooo much better than anything that results in someone like Dinwiddie here on a fat contract.

I can't believe I'm on here defending Dinwiddie, who's a player I'm not that high on, and would be wildly disappointed if he was our primary get.  But 3/45 is not really a fat contract (only 5 more than MLE).  He has legit starter talent and is a better fit with Brunson in the second unit.  I don't really see either of those other two guys in the starting unit, and I would probably not want to spend the full MLE on them (more like the room if we are under the cap).

To be clear, this is not plan A or B or C.  If we don't get a play maker with the cap, I would probably prefer something like Reggie Jackson for the MLE, but that may not be an option (and we can't S&T him because Clips don't have his bird rights).  But if my options are hold on to JRich, S&T Oubre, or take on a bad contract (like Gordon) then I'm rolling with Din.

[KillerLeft]

It is hard for me to distinguish WHERE Donnie had power versus RC. That's why I do it. 

That's the entire point, imo. That was the point of the Cato/Amick article, and that has long been a source of frustration here, though we didn't always have our energy focused in the right direction enough to pinpoint the source. 

Not knowing where the power is...that IS the problem. WE don't NEED to know, but THEY did, and it doesn't seem like that was the case. I think there are organizations in which the more immersed fans can probably make good guesses here (better than we, for the Mavs) without their team stating the hierarchal structure, outright. Example: pretty clear that Riley's voice matters most in Miami, yeah? 

From my POV, evaluating Carlisle comes down to whether or not he is a better basketball coach than most others, and in my opinion, he absolutely is. I think it's a stretch to pin all the organizational crap on him. The guys running the organization should be accountable for that. Even if you think Carlisle WAS running the organization, which I don't, that is, to me, just a sign that the people who SHOULD have been doing it weren't up to it. 

tl;dr: NOPE, don't blame Carlisle.

[cow]

I think that is more about us focusing on the Mavs. Kidd was beloved by Giannis but the rest of the team wasn´t as high on him. Just need to ask Malcolm Brogdon about Kidd.

Don't kill my hope.  lol

Kidd is downgrade over Carlisle for sure, but Carlisle was a prickly pear when it came to rookies, trades or other acquisitions.

[Kammrath]

Maybe Kamm should try the whole balance and reason approach that he mentioned in the Cuban discussion and apply it to his RC takes.

My opinion on RC (a lot of it anyway):

1) Good coach overall, especially X's and O's.
2) Elite coach from 2009-11. 
3) Up and down, but mostly average coach in the last decade. 
4) Great at getting a lot out of certain players/personalities, helping them to overperform their talent level.
5) Very poor at developing and working with certain players/personalities. 
6) Was not a good personality fit with Luka, but thought he coached Luka well overall.
7) Was not a good personality fit with KP and thought he failed to get much out of KP. 


What I don't know about RC and have been trying to explore and figure out:

1) How much power did RC have over personnel decisions?
2) How much did he have the ear of Donnie?
3) How much did he have the ear of Cuban?
4) How much of the front office dysfunction was he part of?


If I am not being balanced and reasonable, happy to talk about that.

[VintagePejav2]

Dan, I love your postings generally speaking, but please don't try to talk me into being happy about the Mavs getting Oubre.

I think t$unami papi will be a Maverick - too much noise there for it to be “total bullshit.” I’m preparing for my wife to start watching Mavs games. #cucklife

[ItsGoTime]

Even if you think Carlisle WAS running the organization, which I don't, that is, to me, just a sign that the people who SHOULD have been doing it weren't up to it. 

This. Donnie never was a leader with a strong voice as has been proven lately. Not RC’s fault, but it is kinda telling that he left as soon as his puppet was dismissed. That should absolutely be symbiotic relationship, but the hierarchy should prevail, and there SHOULD be, at times, differences of opinion.

[mvossman]

I’m firmly in the blame Donnie camp, but there is plenty of blame to go around! Starts with Donnie for me though, as he’s been the problem for over 12 years.

I'm firmly in the blame Cuban camp.  Don't think plan powder was Donnie's idea, and that is the primary force that has generated so many bad decisions (Giannis being the biggest).  I don't consider Donnie a great GM by any stretch, but he did have a really good eye for European talent, and he was responsible/involved in the three biggest moves in franchise history (Dirk, Giannis (oops, plan powder!), Luka).

[ItsGoTime]

I'm firmly in the blame Cuban camp.  Don't think plan powder was Donnie's idea, and that is the primary force that has generated so many bad decisions (Giannis being the biggest).  I don't consider Donnie a great GM by any stretch, but he did have a really good eye for European talent, and he was responsible/involved in the three biggest moves in franchise history (Dirk, Giannis (oops, plan powder!), Luka).

Cuban deserves blame too. It’s the Gm’s job though to change the mind of the owner though. Donnie was rarely up to the task. 


Do we know that plan powder was Cuban’s idea and not Keith Grant’s? He is the cap guy that is supposed to help us make all things possible. Even after years of watching Miami not have space, yet find it once the player said yes, we STILL kept the same failed plan! Keith Grant is supposed to let them know the ways (multiple, not just one) to get it done. The 2011 interpretation of the new CBA was all on him right? Didn’t plan powder stem from that interpretation?

How does much of the blame not fall at his feet too?

[mvossman]

OPJ certainly fits the description but I don't see Orlando taking JRich in a SnT. I would be certainly intrigued by DJJ as a back up wing, but again I doubt Portland would really need JRich, even if they move McCollum (tax). Than you are down to Batum, Tucker, Craig and similar. I doubt any of them is worth full MLE.

I would have no issues spending the MLE on Batum.  He would be a perfect short term solution at the 4, but we can't S&T him for JRich because Clips don't have bird rights.  Not sure I would spend even the MLE on OPJ.  Good chance he is permanently broken.

[dirkfansince1998]

Don't kill my hope.  lol

Kidd is downgrade over Carlisle for sure, but Carlisle was a prickly pear when it came to rookies, trades or other acquisitions.

Agree on RC but as was mentioned in the Ford podcast. Most coaches are because they are trying to win the max amount of games. Even the best rookies rarely are win now impact players and looking at the Mavs picks of the last 10 years I don´t see a lot of misses that turned into great players after leaving the Mavs.

Thing is that Kidd had similar problems in Milwaukee. According to the rumors Jabari Parker and Kidd were not on speaking terms when he was fired. Brogdon was randomly benched for the entire first half of a game. No explanation given. Deandre Liggins starting over him.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2227...ukee-bucks

He didn't mind confrontation, or making players uncomfortable -- to the detriment of morale in the end. He once benched Antetokounmpo for a breach in practice, and kept Malcolm Brogdon on the pine for almost an entire half without explanation. Some players eventually craved more communication and support.

[ItsGoTime]

mvossman
I would have no issues spending the MLE on Batum.  He would be a perfect short term solution at the 4, but we can't S&T him for JRich because Clips don't have bird rights.  Not sure I would spend even the MLE on OPJ.  Good chance he is permanently broken.

Is this where we flip Dan’s suggestion around and sign Batum for the MLE and trade JRich for McConnell/Caruso/Satoransky (my addition)?

[Scott41theMavs]

https://twitter.com/NickVanExit/status/1...3357784064

Much of the Mavs universe could be dropped into two categories:

1) "Don't blame Carlisle."

2) "It's Carlisle's fault."

Perhaps the way Carlisle treated Green this year 1) was reasonable and 2) will be effective. I understand the whole concern about not wanting to calcify bad habits in a young player. But the optics and present and future team needs indicated that Green should have played a lot more, and his minutes distribution over the course of the year looks an awful lot like an "eff you" from RC to whoever made the decision to draft him (hmmm, who was that again?).