THJ is terrible and these MAVs will be swept by the Clippers

[ItsGoTime]

 

Let’s get back to the origins of the conversation.  SBJ said our genius GM’s “Passed” on Warren.  That simply isn’t true.  Once we establish that, the question becomes whether Dallas should have been willing to do what Indy was willing to do...eat $10mm worth of cap room 10 days before free agency began.  That is really the argument anyone saying we should have gotten Warren is making.  I think you can make good point on both sides of that.  But, you have to do it using what you knew in real time (not with 20-20 hindsight).
 

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/11/21362544/tj-warren-indiana-pacers-victor-oladipo

Pretty good article on Warren and who he has become (how he has emerged...improved...gotten way better from what he was the year before)

I'm still seeing a lot of complaining about the overall results of the 2019 off-season...which is Warren-ted (see what I did there).  I'm seeing people say anything is better than what they did (probably true).  But, I've not seen a specific argument that says on June 20th Dallas should have abandoned the many possibilities they had (at that time...not knowing what we know now) and given up cap room for Warren.  I'm not defending any aspect of the results of the 2019 off-season.  I'm saying that would have been a tough call to make on June 20th.  

BTW, the article's discussion of Warren's emergence probably means many of us are romanticizing who Warren was a year ago.  So now, not only do you have to have known on June 20th that all your plans would fall apart, but you would have had to know, in advance, that Warren would make this kind of leap.

It is interesting that Indy might have interest in some guard help in exchange for a big.

I was and still am on the lookout for starting quality players. I was vocally disinterested in bringing Kemba Walker here. I didn’t know at all who Warren was at the time of the trade, but I would have preferred him and an asset along with whatever else we could have gotten as I wanted to go for at least 2 starters (If not 3) with the money we had last summer.

[chaparral]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/8/11/...or-oladipo

It is interesting that Indy might have interest in some guard help in exchange for a big.

I'm glad things are working out for Warren in Indy.  But the big thing now from this article Dan posted (Thanks) is do the Mavs have what it takes to get on of there bigs?

Turner is a Duffy client and from the DFW area.  Indy dose not have a 1st round pick this year.  The article said a big for a wing.  So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

[BigDirk41]

I was in the camp for jumping on the Warren trade. I recall the majority of people on the old forum saying that "Warren's" were a dime a dozen. You can get those players anytime you want. To be fair these were the same people all in on free agency and wanting to have the cap space so they didn't want to give up the space, but I would have done that Warren trade 10 times out of 10.

All that being said, it doesn't matter now and we have to roll with what we got.

[omahen]

So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

I would say this is a bit light offer for them. However, lets say we do the deal around this package, adding some sweeteners. How do you cover the gap left behind THJ departure? He was a very important piece of our offense.

[chaparral]

So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

I would say this is a bit light offer for them. However, lets say we do the deal around this package, adding some sweeteners. How do you cover the gap left behind THJ departure? He was a very important piece of our offense.

We could do, Dunn for the MLE. 

Porzingis
Turner
FinneySmith
Dunn
Duncic

[ItsGoTime]

So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

I would say this is a bit light offer for them. However, lets say we do the deal around this package, adding some sweeteners. How do you cover the gap left behind THJ departure? He was a very important piece of our offense.

Lots of answers to this question. 


First, on offense alone.

• he could (and should) turn out to be about a 15ppg player, if not more 
  
• if he can get and keep his 3% up in the 36-38% range consistently that would go far in making that (the 15ppg) happen. He's young and practicing  3's, so he has a bit of time and willingness to make that happen 
  
• he adds offensive rebounding to a team that doesn't do that very much
  
• he makes the defending team pick their poison between him and KP with their bigs, or smalls. Either of the 2 (along with Luka) can post up on smaller guys, Luka and Turner become the banging type of post up player while KP is the finesse one. That adds more dynamics to our high powered offense. Having the choice of who to feed the ball into the post to is a pretty big luxury
  
• he's another pick and roll partner for any ball handler, and that play creates a high % shot
  
• he'll learn to pass more and better playing with Luka. Passing is contagious as we saw with Kidd 
  

Second, on defense.

• he defends the biggest guy on the opposing team leaving KP with less of a banger who will wear him down. That in turn allows him to have more energy on offense and also allows him to roam the paint more to be the defensive sniper. 
  
• He adds blocks which can add offensive possessions
  
• more defensive stops creates more offensive possessions
  

[chaparral]

So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

I would say this is a bit light offer for them. However, lets say we do the deal around this package, adding some sweeteners. How do you cover the gap left behind THJ departure? He was a very important piece of our offense.

Lots of answers to this question. 


First, on offense alone.

• he could (and should) turn out to be about a 15ppg player, if not more 
  
• if he can get and keep his 3% up in the 36-38% range consistently that would go far in making that (the 15ppg) happen. He's young and practicing  3's, so he has a bit of time and willingness to make that happen 
  
• he adds offensive rebounding to a team that doesn't do that very much
  
• he makes the defending team pick their poison between him and KP with their bigs, or smalls. Either of the 2 (along with Luka) can post up on smaller guys, Luka and Turner become the banging type of post up player while KP is the finesse one. That adds more dynamics to our high powered offense. Having the choice of who to feed the ball into the post to is a pretty big luxury
  
• he's another pick and roll partner for any ball handler, and that play creates a high % shot
  
• he'll learn to pass more and better playing with Luka. Passing is contagious as we saw with Kidd 
  

Second, on defense.

• he defends the biggest guy on the opposing team leaving KP with less of a banger who will wear him down. That in turn allows him to have more energy on offense and also allows him to roam the paint more to be the defensive sniper. 
  
• He adds blocks which can add offensive possessions
  
• more defensive stops creates more offensive possessions
  

Wow, since you put it like that - I want him more, now.  Do you think Indy would do THJ, 18 and 31 for Turner?

[ItsGoTime]

Wow, since you put it like that - I want him more, now.  Do you think Indy would do THJ, 18 and 31 for Turner?

Turner is first on my list of guys I want that are currently rumored to be available (OPJ is a close second). I would absolutely do that trade and then look for a high end defensive guy that can already hit the 3 enough to put in the work to improve it (not sure Dunn is that guy, but not fully opposed to him either) to fill THJ's spot. 

I think Indy's acceptance will depend on how THJ does in the playoffs. For them, if THJ works out that makes VO expendable and a high end asset to get what they need elsewhere on the roster. I do wonder if Dal would do it if THJ has a good playoffs though, I still would.

[dirkfansince1998]

So would Indy take THJ & the 18th pick for Turner?  Maybe Indy would want more?

I would say this is a bit light offer for them. However, lets say we do the deal around this package, adding some sweeteners. How do you cover the gap left behind THJ departure? He was a very important piece of our offense.

Lots of answers to this question. 


First, on offense alone.

• he could (and should) turn out to be about a 15ppg player, if not more 
  
• if he can get and keep his 3% up in the 36-38% range consistently that would go far in making that (the 15ppg) happen. He's young and practicing  3's, so he has a bit of time and willingness to make that happen 
  
• he adds offensive rebounding to a team that doesn't do that very much
  
• he makes the defending team pick their poison between him and KP with their bigs, or smalls. Either of the 2 (along with Luka) can post up on smaller guys, Luka and Turner become the banging type of post up player while KP is the finesse one. That adds more dynamics to our high powered offense. Having the choice of who to feed the ball into the post to is a pretty big luxury
  
• he's another pick and roll partner for any ball handler, and that play creates a high % shot
  
• he'll learn to pass more and better playing with Luka. Passing is contagious as we saw with Kidd 
  

Second, on defense.

• he defends the biggest guy on the opposing team leaving KP with less of a banger who will wear him down. That in turn allows him to have more energy on offense and also allows him to roam the paint more to be the defensive sniper. 
  
• He adds blocks which can add offensive possessions
  
• more defensive stops creates more offensive possessions
  

Quick fact check:

Offense

• His usage rate has been around 20% with a career low 17% this year. Career high 14.5 pts on 10.7 FGA/58.5% TS. This year 12pts on 9.4 FGA/ 56.8% TS. Seems reasonable to expect 15pts in a more featured role.
  
• 3-point shooting seems to be at least league average. Increased his volume every year. This year nearly half of his shots come from 3-point range (44%). Percentage peaked at 39% on 2.6 attempts in 2019. This year he nearly doubled his volume (4.1 attempts) but the efficiency suffered (34%). For comparisation: Maxi (4.3 att/ 37%), KP (7 att/ 34%)
  
• Mavs rank 10th in ORR. Last in transition D. Compared to previous seasons rebounding and the possession game in general has been a strength. Turner is similar to bigs like KP or Dirk. Plays on the perimeter on offense and isn´t in position to go for offensive rebounds. Only averaged 1.3 this season. Career high 1.7 when he played closer to the basket.
  
• Turner is not a banger or post player. In previous seasons nearly 50% of his shots came from midrange. This year he replaced most of them with 3s. For a player of his size his shooting volume in the paint is really low. He has a nice turnaround jumper but won´t backdown smaller players and dunk on them. 62.4 percentile in the post.
  
• He has been a bad pick and roll player. 41.7 percentile as the roll man. Low volume and not the 1st option. Obviously a difficult situation next to a paint scorer like Sabonis.
  
• Really hope that´s true but looking at KPs improvement this season I agree that coaching, scheme and teammates matter. So far he has a negative ast/tov ratio for his career.
  

Defense

• 60.1 percentile as a post defender. Similar to KP he makes most of his impact as a help defender. Nevertheless it makes sense to match him up with the best opposing big. RC is already doing it with Maxi when he shares the floor with KP.
  
• See above. Good help defender. Woul really help the team to have a mobile rim protector on the floor for 48 minutes/82 games. Just stagger his minutes with KP.
  
• Overall he would clearly improve the defense but I think a more complentary piece that can switch the pick and roll and defend the perimeter would be a better fit next to KP. Turner can move his feet but tends to stay in the paint and allows nearly 40% from 3-point range according to tracking data.
  

[ItsGoTime]

Quick fact check:

Offense

• His usage rate has been around 20% with a career low 17% this year. Career high 14.5 pts on 10.7 FGA/58.5% TS. This year 12pts on 9.4 FGA/ 56.8% TS. Seems reasonable to expect 15pts in a more featured role.    Ok.
  
  
• 3-point shooting seems to be at least league average. Increased his volume every year. This year nearly half of his shots come from 3-point range (44%). Percentage peaked at 39% on 2.6 attempts in 2019. This year he nearly doubled his volume (4.1 attempts) but the efficiency suffered (34%). For comparisation: Maxi (4.3 att/ 37%), KP (7 att/ 34%)  Ok. He's young and working on it, that bodes well for the thought that he can do better going forward. If 4.1 att at 34% is the bottom, hopefully the top is really good.
  
  
• Mavs rank 10th in ORR. Last in transition D. Compared to previous seasons rebounding and the possession game in general has been a strength. Turner is similar to bigs like KP or Dirk. Plays on the perimeter on offense and isn´t in position to go for offensive rebounds. Only averaged 1.3 this season. Career high 1.7 when he played closer to the basket.   In reference to how does MT replace the offense that THJ brings, having more OReb and bringing up the ORR rating for the team is a positive...right?
  
  
• Turner is not a banger or post player. In previous seasons nearly 50% of his shots came from midrange. This year he replaced most of them with 3s. For a player of his size his shooting volume in the paint is really low. He has a nice turnaround jumper but won´t backdown smaller players and dunk on them. 62.4 percentile in the post.   This was more in reference to the other team now has to pick their poison with how they need to defend this team, much like the Lakers have with AD and either Howard or McGee (along with LBJ). I get that it's ambitious to expect this coaching staff to teach and call post play, but getting MT should trigger a bit of a different approach to how this team is going to score the ball than they have now IMO. Which gives them a much more dynamic and unpredictable offense.
  
  
• He has been a bad pick and roll player. 41.7 percentile as the roll man. Low volume and not the 1st option. Obviously a difficult situation next to a paint scorer like Sabonis.  DP wasn't great until he worked on it. This coaching staff knows how to teach that skill and MT has all the tools to be good at it.
  
  
• Really hope that´s true but looking at KPs improvement this season I agree that coaching, scheme and teammates matter. So far he has a negative ast/tov ratio for his career.  Ok.
  
  

Defense

• 60.1 percentile as a post defender. Similar to KP he makes most of his impact as a help defender. Nevertheless it makes sense to match him up with the best opposing big. RC is already doing it with Maxi when he shares the floor with KP.  This was mostly about saving KP from having to get banged up with all the big bodies out there still. Having 2 guys that can roam the paint when the little guys penetrate is a very good thing to have also.
  
  
• See above. Good help defender. Woul really help the team to have a mobile rim protector on the floor for 48 minutes/82 games. Just stagger his minutes with KP.  Yep.
  
  
• Overall he would clearly improve the defense but I think a more complentary piece that can switch the pick and roll and defend the perimeter would be a better fit next to KP. Turner can move his feet but tends to stay in the paint and allows nearly 40% from 3-point range according to tracking data.  I don't see how getting him does not allow for us to look for 2 more starting quality wings to do that. Having 2 guys hunting for blocks when the offense breaks down our defense on the perimeter (which will happen even with the best of perimeter defenders) would be stellar.
  

[StepBackJay]

Turner to me would not be the target, it would be Oladipo. Mavs want to play 5 out with KP at center. At PF you will likely see a tweener type who hopefully plays bigger than his size. I really would like Aaron Gordon above all other options bc of his fit there. That being said if you could throw picks + THJ at Indy they might actually like that option a lot, especially if they are not confident they can lock up Oladipo long-term. They would essentially get his 1 yr replacement in THJ who they can decide whether or not to extend + picks.

Oladipo is a two-way player who can also shoulder some of the offensive burden. Mavs still would probably be one more move away from contention but a lineup of Luka, Oladipo, DFS, KP would be really good. Rick doesn't want to start Maxi so you would be starting Curry or potentially finding another player to enter the starting lineup.

I think Wright is going to be gone this year if the Mavs can move him so it's possible they find a better fitting player for Wright who can slide into the starting lineup.

[Benskix2]

I think there are teams that could make a lot better offers that we could for Oladipo if the pacers make him available.  I don't see 18 this year as an attractive pick, and we owe the knicks our picks in 21 and 23.  Is a 2025 first rounder that is likely to be in the 20s even viewed as a legitimate asset by GMs?

[Playmaker]

Great game by everyone (even THJ showed up) esp. the Bench. They won this game for us. Props to the Mavs for not getting swept after looking totally outmatched during the regular season. Now lets go win this series.

[dirkfansince1998]

Great game by everyone (even THJ showed up) esp. the Bench. They won this game for us.  Props to the Mavs for not getting swept after looking totally outmatched during the regular season.  Now lets go win this series.

You never know which THJ is going to show up. Can be a star that makes multiple contested jumpers in a row. Can be a disaster that misses an open layup and gives up and open 3 on the other end.
It´s driving me crazy. I think today he had a neutral (maybe slightly positive) impact.

[omahen]

You never know which THJ is going to show up.

I think he has been fairly consistent in the second half of the season. Only couple of bad games and his average is close to twenty per game in this stretch. Of course, he still makes stupid decisions here and there, takes a too difficult or too quick shot here and there, but generaly I am very satisfied with his offensive contribution. If only he would be better (try harder) defensively, and he would be a very legit number three guy.

[StepBackJay]

So glad THJ has showed up these playoffs. He has been important. He has the luxury of not necessarily being relied on every game but Mavs have been in these games in part, thanks to his contributions. We really need a lot of guys balling to be in this series and so far that's happening.

[ClutchDirk]

What a premature thread...

[Davevoid]

Just read the title and thought it was some sort of jinx?! Then again...

[StepBackJay]

Man THJ has some balls. Having a great series. Making himself some money.

[haveitall]

THJ is great.  Maybe not a star but great starter.  Very team oriented player.