A Few Thoughts on Mavs 107, Bulls 109

[ItsGoTime]

There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league.

This! In his young age of 21, to add cream on top of the cake. 

But it is probably futile to argue.

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

The only sure way to get support on this board is to be a fanboy.

[dirkfansince1998]

There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league.

This! In his young age of 21, to add cream on top of the cake. 

But it is probably futile to argue.

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

That´s fine. Thing is that you go all out to critic Luka and praise KP. Wonder why. Multiple posters provided numbers that back up Luka has the most impactful player. I still haven´t seen anything from you to back up your claim about KP.
Difference between you and the OP is that he acknowledges Lukas injury problems and continues with and I quote "Rome wasn´t build in a day". You basically stated that the injury did not matter. Yes Luka could have made better decisions and if you go back to my initial post you see me pointing out that Luka did not play as good as he usually does. But the Mavs had more important issues. The bench was completly outmatched. Barea and Wright were useless.
If people want to judge Luka based on the last three injury riddled month they are free to do it but I am not going to take them serious.

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There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league.

This! In his young age of 21, to add cream on top of the cake. 

But it is probably futile to argue.

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

The only sure way to get support on this board is to be a fanboy.

Or an arrogant mod.

[hakeemfan]

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

I didn’t mean this to be a us vs them type of discussion. 

All of us are Mavs fans. Maybe I grate on some because I do strongly feel about a few bad things that Luka does game after game. 

At the same time, I was upset for him for even an inconsequential ASG where he was benched in the clutch, even though he has fully earned his right to be there despite his age. I was asking for him to give a finger to the veterans and also to Ja and Zion who seemed to have a clique of their own. Just because some of us are critical of some aspects of his game, doesn’t mean that we don’t see how great he is. All of us are Mavs homers at heart.

[dirkfansince1998]

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

I didn’t mean this to be a us vs them type of discussion. 

All of us are Mavs fans. Maybe I grate on some because I do strongly feel about a few bad things that Luka does game after game. 

At the same time, I was upset for him for even an inconsequential ASG where he was benched in the clutch, even though he has fully earned his right to be there despite his age. I was asking for him to give a finger to the veterans and also to Ja and Zion who seemed to have a clique of their own. Just because some of us are critical of some aspects of his game, doesn’t mean that we don’t see how great he is. All of us are Mavs homers at heart.

And that´s fine. We all have our own ideas about the strengths and weaknesses of the team. It´s just funny that I ended up in the fanboy corner in this discussion.
Fuerza complained about Curry all season long. I am still complaining about past offseason failures. Hakeem wants a different offensive scheme.

[fifteenth]

I want whirled peas

[ItsGoTime]

Or an arrogant mod.

or an arrogant non-mod.

[dirkfansince1998]

Or an arrogant mod.

or an arrogant non-mod.

Dish and take.

[omahen]

I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree

Majority of your posts are about mistakes of a historically good player. Because Luka became what he is by accident, not by a ton of work. And like Luka and vast Mavs training staff have no idea where he can improve and collectively spend all their time in the clubs instead on working on his game.

I dare to say none of us is claiming Luka is perfect, however your critique is not fair.

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The only sure way to get support on this board is to be a fanboy.

Yeah right... Because I am known as a fanboy around here

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Maybe I grate on some because I do strongly feel about a few bad things that Luka does game after game. 

The way you write about it it sounds like Lukas game is flawed. In reality, he is one of the best offensive players in the world, who can still get better. And we can only be sure, he will continue to work to be better.

[fifteenth]

In reality, he is one of the best offensive players in the world, who can still get better.

I think hf actually agrees with this. Note that you said "can still get better". That's all hf is saying.

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I think all you fan boys and haters in this thread are producing a good discussion. 

Other than that... down with the mods! Let's revolt!

[ItsGoTime]

Yeah right... Because I am known as a fanboy around here

I said "sure way" for a reason.

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Maybe I grate on some because I do strongly feel about a few bad things that Luka does game after game. 

It's the time after time with no difference while he himself is saying the same thing as you. 

I don't think it's coincidence that Luka is breaking down after such a fast start 2 seasons in a row. If the excuse is he is injured, and yet he's still getting double and triple teamed, why isn't that all the more reason to get your teammates involved? Surely they can play 4v3 or 4v2 right? Isn't that the basis of spacing the floor anyway? All the while Luka can save energy and create with full effort when he does stay involved.

[Dahlsim]

With about 50 pts sitting-out, there's no doubt we were going to struggle a bit,  But, in addition it didn't look out guys were mentally sharp.  Then add CHI Bench = 60 v. MAVS Bench= 19.  Ouch!! can't win with that.

There a players on the bench who unfortunately have been deemed 0s offensively by the coach because they cant make 3s. Boban who is shaqlike with pure size/power in the paint scores and boards over anyone with ease and requires an instant double to keep outta position/from catching the ball, and changes the dynamic of the floor with his presence alone....
Some better screens from bigs that roll and finish hard at the hoop could change things, as could more size to better the defensive/rebounding capabilities of the group but Rick is stubborn. I made a joke in a game thread a while back saying we could have prime Shaq on this team and Rick wouldn't play him because he cant shoot 3s.

...  All good teams have a lineup they can grind on teams..... especially when the shots aren't falling, we just keep shooting. If that's the coaching scheme, well you guys see why I'm no fan of Rick.

The Boban story was one of the prime things I wanted to follow this season along with obvious major stories of Luka Wonderboy and KP Unicorn.  A lot of interesting stories in the Mavs season, fun to watch but the part where they can't hold leads well and don't seem to be able to shift gears is not so much fun to watch over and over.  

I've seen the way Rick Carlisle likes to use or not use his centers and I knew Boban was not his type of 5 man for his system. 
It seems guys like Derek Harper and now Jason Terry are thinking like I have that he's being underutilized. 

Boban is a give some and take more type player.  Problem is for Rick Carlisle not just that Boban is not a 3 point shooter (although there are some signs he could shoot it with attempts) but Coach has said he thinks the defensive end of the floor is the problem. 

I get that, especially in a PnR heavy league like this but the fact is Marjonovic is so effective offensively that he could offset the defensive hole if used deliberately at the right times.   In my view when the team needs to hold a lead, especially with time running down, the high powered offense too often goes cold just long enough to lose a lead and lose a game.  
It would seem to make sense in those spots that a guy that the other team has to work so hard to stop is very helpful.  
A team trying to come back has to both score on you AND get consecutive stops to complete the comeback. 

Anyway, that's not in the Carlisle strategy book from what I can tell so as you said the Mavericks just don't have that "Grind on them rotation" when the situation gets tight.  They just have to hope the 3 pointers keep falling.  Its all miss or make without a high percentage grind mode. 

All good teams have a lineup they can grind on teams..... especially when the shots aren't falling, we just keep shooting. If that's the coaching scheme, well you guys see why I'm no fan of Rick.

[omahen]

If the excuse is he is injured, and yet he's still getting double and triple teamed, why isn't that all the more reason to get your teammates involved? Surely they can play 4v3 or 4v2 right? Isn't that the basis of spacing the floor anyway?

This is the take I can't agree with, especially not in the Chicago game. Luka took 20 shots, not even most on the team. He was passing all the time, only took 2 shots in the last quarter. So who didn't deliver? Problem is, no one but Luka creates any spacing (with Seth and KP out). 

Funny thing that a line of 23-5-9 is considered as breaking down.

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Boban is a give some and take more type player.  Problem is for Rick Carlisle not just that Boban is not a 3 point shooter (although there are some signs he could shoot it with attempts) but Coach has said he thinks the defensive end of the floor is the problem. 

I totally agree on Boban. They knew exactly what they are getting so I really don't understand why they paid more than vet min for how much they are using him. I guess they had plenty of cap space to spend

[ItsGoTime]

Anyway, that's not in the Carlisle strategy book from what I can tell so as you said the Mavericks just don't have that "Grind on them rotation" when the situation gets tight.  They just have to hope the 3 pointers keep falling.  Its all miss or make without a high percentage grind mode. 

This is another of HF's gripes. It doesn't actually have to be other players in the game. The players in the game just have to be told to change up the gameplan to incorporate higher percentage shots. Threes are not high %, they work well when you have lots of time on the clock to recover from a miss, not so much when you don't. I say that and still believe there is a place for the 3 to be taken, they just have to be wide open and getting a guy in rhythm so as to make it no different than how he's practiced the shot over and over.

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Funny thing that a line of 23-5-9 is considered as breaking down.

So you think that is a good stat line from Luka sans KP?

What if you added stats? 40%/12.5%/66.7%

[Dahlsim]

Anyway, that's not in the Carlisle strategy book from what I can tell so as you said the Mavericks just don't have that "Grind on them rotation" when the situation gets tight.  They just have to hope the 3 pointers keep falling.  Its all miss or make without a high percentage grind mode. 

This is another of HF's gripes. It doesn't actually have to be other players in the game. The players in the game just have to be told to change up the gameplan to incorporate higher percentage shots.

Threes are not high %, they work well when you have lots of time on the clock to recover from a miss, not so much when you don't. I say that and still believe there is a place for the 3 to be taken, they just have to be wide open and getting a guy in rhythm so as to make it no different than how he's practiced the shot over and over.

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That's the thing, the clock and the score should come into play.  Most of the game, with good and great 3 point shooters like the Mavs have, its great to shoot a lot of 3's because the 3 is more efficient.   

When there is less time the lower % 3 point shot is giving the other team a chance to tighten up and go on a run back against you. 
True also when for whatever reason your team is going cold and you just need a few baskets to keep the runs from extending ridiculously longer than they should, which we have seen against Dallas.  Historic blown leads happen because you don't have a grind it out mode to stop bleeding. 

Boban can provide spacing the old fashioned way.  Put the big man in the post / paint , run him around the rim and dive toward the basket then the defense has to react. Hard to stop one on one many times.  That's why teams try to outscore him and get him off the floor asap.  He compromises their interior D. 
In the Chicago game it wasn't just the points he scored and the rebounds per minute which are elite, but the Bulls had to run a double which led to wide open opportunities and space for other players.

[dirkfansince1998]

Anyway, that's not in the Carlisle strategy book from what I can tell so as you said the Mavericks just don't have that "Grind on them rotation" when the situation gets tight.  They just have to hope the 3 pointers keep falling.  Its all miss or make without a high percentage grind mode. 

This is another of HF's gripes. It doesn't actually have to be other players in the game. The players in the game just have to be told to change up the gameplan to incorporate higher percentage shots. Threes are not high %, they work well when you have lots of time on the clock to recover from a miss, not so much when you don't. I say that and still believe there is a place for the 3 to be taken, they just have to be wide open and getting a guy in rhythm so as to make it no different than how he's practiced the shot over and over.

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Funny thing that a line of 23-5-9 is considered as breaking down.

So you think that is a good stat line from Luka sans KP?

What if you added stats? 40%/12.5%/66.7%

What if you added context. Compared to the other ballhandlers. Barea and Wright combined for 1 point in 39 minutes. Not a single made FG. It wasn´t a good game from Luka but the other options were even worse.
Guard play was really bad except for THJ and again Luka at least had the injury excuse. The Mavs were +10 with him on the floor. What happened when JJB and Wright were running the show? I am not a big fan of Lukas playing hero ball but if the other option is Wright refusing to drive or shoot at all I´ll take it.

[omahen]

What if you added context.

The context is, that Luka was guarded by half of Chicago lineup, other options failed to deliver, yet Luka is somehow the one with a bad game, hero ball and I don't know what else. I wish some people would watch the second half again and have a look at how many opportunities  were not taken by other Mavs. Not just Barea and Wright, also DFS and Maxi. With such average or below average offensive players Luka and THJ were forced in hero ball.

[ItsGoTime]

What if you added context. Compared to the other ballhandlers. Barea and Wright combined for 1 point in 39 minutes. Not a single made FG.

Can you explain what points scored have to do with ball handlers as the only stat to show to prove whatever point you’re trying to make? Hoping that doesn’t come off as condescending, don’t know how else to word it if it is, just really want to know where that thought process is going.

The context that I see is that when other ball handlers are in the game with Luka, very often it becomes hot potato when they have the ball and Luka doesn’t. That is probably mostly on the other ball handlers and not so much Luka, but there are things he can do to ease those nerves too, like after he passes the ball, don’t run a circle back to the top of the key and call for the ball. Plenty of other things he can do to show confidence in teammates that do well enough when he is not in the game.

Wright showed a lot more promise earlier in the season than now. I wonder if his regression has to do with some of the stuff he candidly said in the Cato interview. He has the ability to be a good enough player for what we need him to be, he just hasn’t shown it much lately.

The discussion goes well beyond the one game, or at least I know HF and what I have been trying to convey does. The chosen direction about what the other ball handlers did in this one game, while it has merit, has little to do with the whole of the issue being brought up IMO.

[omahen]

Lets recap a bit. First quarter Luka had a field day and Mavs got a 10 point lead. Bench lost that lead in three and a half minutes, which is also the time Luka went back in. Lead went up to 10 points before halftime. It is safe to say Luka was good in the first half, so I will not go one by one. 

I went to rewatch the third and fourt quarter of Chi game. Here you go one by one all offense with Luka in:

First offense: ball is being passed around, THJ-Maxi PnR, Maxi gets the ball stripped out of bounds with 7 seconds left. Luka inbounds to Lee (not a perfect pass but not that bad either) who loses the ball.

Next: Luka receives the ball with 10 seconds left, tries to post up Hutchinson who strippes the ball from him with a tough hit (no foul?)

Next: Stupid lost ball by Luka from the first pass of offense. Three lost balls to start the half, not a single shot!

Next: Luka and 1

Next: THJ drives from Luka pass, gets blocked (no foul?)

Next: THJ three

Next: Luka to Maxi PnR, Maxi misses three

Next: Luka tough floater missed (no foul?)

Next: THJ solo action, missed three (Luka was open)

Next: Wright-Maxi PnR "actions" 2 times, nothing happens, Luka receives ball with 6 seconds left and passes it with two seconds left to THJ in a difficult position, missed shot (too late anyway?)

Next: THJ plays solo, drives and misses (no foul?)

Next: Luka drives, pass to open THJ, miss. DFS saves the ball and Luka misses open floater

Next: Luka drives, three defenders on him, passes to open DFS (not the best pass). DFS doesn't shoot. Luka posts up Hutchinson and scores.

Next: Luka plays off ball, THJ bad pass to Bobi, turnover

Next: Luka drives, pass to THJ, hockey pass to DFS for a mid range two pointer

Next: THJ fouled on semi counter attack, 2 FT made

Next: Luka drives, perfect pass to Bobi under the rim who is too slow and got ball stripped out of bounds. Bobi posts up and scores

Next: Luka drives and scores, foul on the floor (no basket). Excellent defense by Mokoka and Luka missed desperation three.

Next offense Wright gets the ball again, drives under the basket and loses ball when trying to pass to open DFS.

Next offense, Luka is playing off the bal again. DFS drives and commits offensive foul. Very questionable offensive foul.

Next offense, foul on Luka even before the drive, makes one.

Next offense, Luka is doubled, pass to Jackson, hockey pass to open THJ, missed three.

Next offense, Luka off the ball, THJ drives and scores.

Chicago lead by 6 after third. Luka went back in with 6:31 left, Chicago still 6 in front and Chicago ball. 

First offense: Luka-Maxi PnR, Maxi hesitates to shot. Pass to Wright, Wright-Maxi Pnr - nothing. Ball back to Luka. Drive, pass to Lee, miss.

Next: DFS to Maxi, Maxi is fouled, makes both

Next: Luka - THJ PnR, Luka to THJ, 2 point shot made

Next: Luka is fouled on a drive from Maxi pass. Makes one FT

Next: Maxi, DFS and Lee have ball for most of the offense, Lee drives and scores

Next: Luka is fouled on a attempted hand off to THJ (no bonus yet). Luka drives and passes to completely open DFS, miss. Hustle play by Luka and Maxi, ball stolen. Lee bad pass turnover.

Next: Luka drives and passes to completely open THJ (all 5 Chicago players in paint or step out of paint), miss. Offensive rebound and foul on DFS, makes 1.

Next: Mokoka foul on Luka, makes 1  

Next: (down 6 with a minute and a half left). Luka double teamed, pass to open Maxi, missed 3 pointer

Next: (down 6 with 50 seconds left). Luka missed a difficult step back 3.

Then the hectic last seconds happen, which I will not cover. 


Now I would like Itsgotime and Hakeemfan to point out where in this two critical quarters the heroballing and not trusting his teammates happened? The ONLY instance was the stepback with 50 seconds left and down by 6. A time when stars take responsibility. Any drive would end in a double team and a pass to Maxi or DFS for an open three. 

The reasons for loss were stupid turnovers and bad defense.

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Wright showed a lot more promise earlier in the season than now. I wonder if his regression has to do with some of the stuff he candidly said in the Cato interview. He has the ability to be a good enough player for what we need him to be, he just hasn’t shown it much lately.

Rewatch the game. He got the ball numerous times to run a pick and roll with (usually with Maxi) and absolutely nothing happened from these attempts. I don't know about the ability, but he is certainly not showing he can be an effective PG.

[ItsGoTime]

The context is, that Luka was guarded by half of Chicago lineup, other options failed to deliver,

I’d be interested in seeing the time with the ball numbers. Also, plenty of blame to go around when we lose to the Bulls who they themselves weren’t 100%. Wish there was a way to point out what we feel was Luka’s hand in that blame without having to go through all this.

[omahen]

Also, plenty of blame to go around when we lose to the Bulls who they themselves weren’t 100%.

Agree. But the reasons for defeat were not Luka heroballing or not trusting his teammates as you and Hakeem claim. Not even close. With the exception of 1 stupid turnover and one desperation shot after defender killed him, Luka did what he should do on offense. Rewatch the game or go through play by play above.