A Few Thoughts on Mavs 107, Bulls 109

[hakeemfan]

KP would wear down really fast if he had the responsibility to carry the offense night in and night out that Luka has IMO.

The offense seems to be fine without Luka also. Not saying that you can ever replace a talent like that but it’s not like the team looks like a G League team without him.  

The issue is Luka feeling he has to do too much.  He needs to let go a bit and be content to play off the ball a while too. As I said if he is double teamed and passes off the ball he has done his job. He doesn’t have to get an assist with the first pass or go back and get the ball immediately.

[Fuerza1]

The offense seems to be fine without Luka also. Not saying that you can ever replace a talent like that but it’s not like the team looks like a G League team without him.  

The issue is Luka feeling he has to do too much.  He needs to let go a bit and be content to play off the ball a while too. As I said if he is double teamed and passes off the ball he has done his job. He doesn’t have to get an assist with the first pass or go back and get the ball immediately.

Ultimately, the ceiling of the team is at its highest with Luka as I am sure we all realize. But yes so far KP's defense looks to be slightly more important than Luka's offense this season. 

I blame the triple-double phenomenon: Luka is starting to come down with Westbrook Syndrome. And this is not an insult, it's a compliment. Playing at a prime Westbrook-esque level at age 21 is special. The catch is what happens long term, how does Luka evolve?

[dirkfansince1998]

KP's defense looks to be slightly more important than Luka's offense this season. 

Mavs are 9-6 without KP.
Mavs are 6-7 without Doncic.

KP obviously is trending upwards in the last couple of weeks but overall Lukas impact has been far bigger. Luka has been in an out of the lineup since Christmas because of injuries and people can obviously question his durability and shape...the Luka we are currently seeing is not the player we saw in november.
Reversed trends with KP getting healthier and better as the season progresses while Luka battles through injuries.

[Kammrath]

Doncic On/Off: +4.1
Doncic RAPTOR: +7.1

KP On/Off: +3.9
KP RAPTOR: +2.0

I think Luka has been the most "impactful" this season overall.

But I think KP is giving Doncic a run for his money recently.

Doncic On/Off Last 15 Games: +13.5
KP On/Off Last 15 Games: +15.8

[Fuerza1]

Mavs are 9-6 without KP.
Mavs are 6-7 without Doncic.

Context is our friend!

Wins without KP: Grizzlies (without Morant); 76ers (without Embiid); Nets (without Kyrie); Bulls; Kings; Warriors; Blazers (McCollum injured); Hawks; and Hornets. 

- That is one win against a team [PHI] over .500 yet they were without Embiid. 

Losses without KP: Lakers (without Davis); Thunder; Nuggets; Hornets; Bulls (without Lavine); and Hawks (no Luka either). 

- 2 bad losses against Hornets/Bulls who own 21 wins apiece; Lakers blew us out; 3 total losses to teams above .500

---

 
Wins without Luka: Bucks; 76ers; Pacers; Hawks; Hornets; and T-Wolves.

- 3 wins (tripled without KP) against teams over .500

Losses without Luka: Celtics, Raptors (without Siakim); Jazz; Rockets; Grizzlies; Wizards; Hawks (no KP either)

- No moral victories but 4 competitive losses to all teams above .500; you can even add the Heat overtime loss to this list, making it 5; Grizzlies blew us out; lost to Wiz on blown defensive assignment.

---

Overall, I'd say it's pretty close to even but games without Luka have called for much tougher opponents for a KP-led squad; their wins are far more impressive. Losses not as ugly considering the opponent. 

Games without KP have been a cupcake with the exception of Lakers, Thunder, and Nuggets (lost to all 3).

[MrGoat]

Priority number one should be keeping Luka and KP healthy enough to make it to their first playoff experience. It's easy in hindsight, but I wish we just sat Luka for this one

Look at the standings, we are in no danger of missing the playoffs. This was the reverse of how we sometimes picked up wins against good teams that were just waiting for the playoffs back when we sucked. You could tell by the effort in the 2nd half we just weren't taking this game seriously enough. We saw Chicago without LaVine and Lauri and didn't take them seriously, kind of like how we caught the Bucks off guard in that one game Luka and KP were out. These just happen during the regular season and shouldn't be overreacted to

The frustrating part is the Bulls still tried to throw it away at the end in what looked like a flagrant tank attempt and we couldn't even capitalize on it. Though it may be for the best in the long run to get a wake up call instead of an undeserved win

[dirkfansince1998]

Mavs are 9-6 without KP.
Mavs are 6-7 without Doncic.

Context is our friend!

Wins without KP: Grizzlies (without Morant); 76ers (without Embiid); Nets (without Kyrie); Bulls; Kings; Warriors; Blazers (McCollum injured); Hawks; and Hornets. 

- That is one win against a team [PHI] over .500 yet they were without Embiid. 

Losses without KP: Lakers (without Davis); Thunder; Nuggets; Hornets; Bulls (without Lavine); and Hawks (no Luka either). 

- 2 bad losses against Hornets/Bulls who own 21 wins apiece; Lakers blew us out; 3 total losses to teams above .500

---

 
Wins without Luka: Bucks; 76ers; Pacers; Hawks; Hornets; and T-Wolves.

- 3 wins (tripled without KP) against teams over .500

Losses without Luka: Celtics, Raptors (without Siakim); Jazz; Rockets; Grizzlies; Wizards; Hawks (no KP either)

- No moral victories but 4 competitive losses to all teams above .500; you can even add the Heat overtime loss to this list, making it 5; Grizzlies blew us out; lost to Wiz on blown defensive assignment.

---

Overall, I'd say it's pretty close to even but games without Luka have called for much tougher opponents for a KP-led squad; their wins are far more impressive. Losses not as ugly considering the opponent. 

Games without KP have been a cupcake with the exception of Lakers, Thunder, and Nuggets (lost to all 3).

I wouldn´t count all time bad 4th quarter collapses and blown leads as competitive loses. Especially the Raptors game. The 4th quarter collapse has been the trade mark story of games without Luka. It is also a problem with him but definitely not as bad.

The whole point I was trying to make was that Luka has been the most impactful player on the team. It seems like some people already have bad cases of selective short term memory and forgot who carried the roster for half of the season. KP has played one month of good offensive basketball and suddenly he is the most impactful player on the team? I smell hot takes. Skip Bayless must be proud.
Especially because Luka has been out with injuries or played through injuries in the last couple of weeks. If KP had the injury excuse all season long. Shouldn´t the same apply for Luka?
I mean I read something like Luka should have closed out the game against the Bulls. No excuses. For real? Basically playing with one hand against a team that constantly doubled him.

I know that fans can be fickle and the newest toy is obviously always the best but some takes are just ridiculous.

Side note: Really appreciate the added research.

[mtrot]

The problem for the Mavs is, without KP, the Mavs are simply quite easy for an athletic and physical team to beat.  I don't know if Rick has not yet realized this, or if he just feels losses are okay because we appear to have the 7 seed in hand.  Either way, it just really aggravates me.  Based upon Luka's level of play last night, it seems apparent to me that Luka needs to be rested more than KP, if one of them has to sit.

[StepBackJay]

At this point I think Mavs are fine with 7 and just want to stay healthy. Not sure I agree but it is what it is. If Mavs do have all their guys come playoff time it would be nice for a change. Remember in the Parsons era we made the playoffs twice and he was out both times.

[hakeemfan]

...
...

I was the one who made the comment about Luka bringing home that win and I stand by it. His hand and double teaming by the opposition did not stop him from being effective when he was not jacking up 3s...did it?  Mavsluvr made the point about Luka having to trust his teammates more. Is that also a hot take by a fickle fan?  

Most important player (not impactful) was something many folks here mentioned as the team lacks any sort of defensive presence inside when KP was not there.  If you want to say impactful, that is fine too. KP at least tries to make an impact on the defensive end, unless your criterion for most impactful is just trying on the offensive end. 

Even with Luka the team has struggled against the top teams. A huge part of it is on Luka because he tries to do way too much. The team is not so poor that he has to have the ball constantly in his hands or force a lot of poor shots. That is making excuses for heroball play when it is not needed.  What do injuries have to do with it?  Why not trust your teammates a bit more given that they have not fallen off a cliff in games Luka has not played? Why not save some energy on the offensive end and focus a bit more on the defensive end also?

[Fuerza1]

I wouldn´t count all time bad 4th quarter collapses and blown leads as competitive loses. Especially the Raptors game. The 4th quarter collapse has been the trade mark story of games without Luka. It is also a problem with him but definitely not as bad.

Uhhh what? It's definitely been as bad with Luka. You forget the 7-pt leads with 3 mins to go against the Hornets/Thunder without KP? The Nuggets loss without KP is another blown 5-pt lead with 2 mins left? Ring a bell?

Without Luka, there's only 3 games we really let slip away: Raptors, Heat, and Wizards. Not sure how one outweighs the other? 

And that's only comparing the games where only 1 of Luka/KP were playing. There's been plenty of end of game botches that Luka participated in along with KP. 

If we want to get down to the nitty gritty, Luka has been pretty pedestrian in the clutch this season:

Luka's clutch FG%/3PT%/FT% = 34%/18%/63% but just about everybody else has been bad too. 

Point being, Luka is part of the end of game problem too. He is not the blame, no body is. It is a team dilemma, and the issue is more about execution IMO (looking at "top 5" Coach Carlisle).

[duboh7]

With about 50 pts sitting-out, there's no doubt we were going to struggle a bit, But, in addition it didn't look out guys were mentally sharp. Then add CHI Bench = 60 v. MAVS Bench= 19. Ouch!! can't win with that.

[dmavs4life03]

With about 50 pts sitting-out, there's no doubt we were going to struggle a bit,  But, in addition it didn't look out guys were mentally sharp.  Then add CHI Bench = 60 v. MAVS Bench= 19.  Ouch!! can't win with that.

There a players on the bench who unfortunately have been deemed 0s offensively by the coach because they cant make 3s. Boban who is shaqlike with pure size/power in the paint scores and boards over anyone with ease and requires an instant double to keep outta position/from catching the ball, and changes the dynamic of the floor with his presence alone. WCS is more of a mini "needs polishing" TC who again helps create a different look on P&Rs that can be used say when KP is resting or along side him with KP/Maxi or whoever parked in the left corner to stretch the floor while he P&Rs people to death say with Luka/THJ/Seth/Delon/Brunson/Barea or whoever. Even some SF to C like Trix used to do from the FT line makes the offense less predictable and isnt coaching if luka has to just always "breakdown the defense" and "create something from nothing". Some better screens from bigs that roll and finish hard at the hoop could change things, as could more size to better the defensive/rebounding capabilities of the group but Rick is stubborn. I made a joke in a game thread a while back saying we could have prime Shaq on this team and Rick wouldn't play him because he cant shoot 3s.

Even MKG has a motor like young Matrix/or Corey Brewer (one of my fave energy guys ever) and is always moving in the paint for slip passes and putbacks like DFS but he cant shoot so gets no time. And Lee reminds me of DSteve in ways that he defends well enough, is legit size that as part of a group is better than would be one on one but gets less time than JJ (who while it may have made sense earlier in the year to see what we had; is terrible both defensively and on the boards for his size... not even counting his brickfest from 3. Really thought he was gonna get waived over Brokoff and wish it happened too b/c Brokoff at least was decent defensively for the team, grabbed a board/boxed out better and could make it rain from 3 when ready. Rick just is the master of pysching people out and making them almost not care anymore. From Trix to Haywood, Delon (earlier in the year when he was let alone and more consistent) Maxi last year over Powell (who's a scrub from 3 and any shot there from him is a wasted possession),Rondo (though I know I'm supposed to hate him) even Kidd/Dirk had to tell him what they thought needed doing to make things flow right.

People always say how the game is mostly read and react and we also play mostly jumpshooters, why not add a different screen/roll element to the attack using our bigs. Who gives a fuck they cant make a 3. They can dunk in the paint, change/block shots, make at least 1 FT getting fouled (something the whole team seems to need work on) and keep the entire defense from going to pot when KP sits like our offense used to die when Dirk sat. All good teams have a lineup they can grind on teams..... especially when the shots aren't falling, we just keep shooting. If that's the coaching scheme, well you guys see why I'm no fan of Rick.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

With all due respect, the bench players on this team have no similarities to that championship team you're comparing them to. That team had much better shooters off the bench. Outside of Curry, Brunson { JJB and Maxi maybe on a given night) Wright is scared to shoot. They don't have much. MKG and WCS, you can't expect a lot from them other than defense. Jackson has lost his way. Boban is good, but situational, he can't play major minutes.

[dirkfansince1998]

His hand and double teaming by the opposition did not stop him from being effective when he was not jacking up 3s...did it?

If you watched the game and think that the injury did not bother him I cannot help you. He struggled to beat defenders of the dribble all game long. Had slower handles and rarely attacked left.

KP at least tries to make an impact on the defensive end, unless your criterion for most impactful is just trying on the offensive end. 

So it is about two way impact. KP had one good month on offense and that´s enough to overtake the player that carried the Mavs for half of the season? KP is a good defender but you make it look like he is anchoring the best defense in the league. That´s not the case even with him on the floor the Mavs are below average. Like it or not they are an offensive minded team and the best offensive player on the team is Luka. They are good without him. They have the best offense in league history with him. KP does not have a similar two way impact. He is behind Luka in every single advanced stat. Boxscore based, +/- based doesn´t matter. Being the better defender doesn´t mean that he is the more impactful player. Good example. On court ratings:
KP is +0.9 on offense and +2.4 on defense
Luka is +6.3 on offense and - 2.4 on defense

Even with Luka the team has struggled against the top teams. A huge part of it is on Luka because he tries to do way too much. The team is not so poor that he has to have the ball constantly in his hands or force a lot of poor shots. That is making excuses for heroball play when it is not needed.  What do injuries have to do with it?  Why not trust your teammates a bit more given that they have not fallen off a cliff in games Luka has not played? Why not save some energy on the offensive end and focus a bit more on the defensive end also?

I agree with some of the mentioned things. I am not the biggest fan of him playing hero ball in some games. But on the other hand his teammates aren´t doing any better or even worse in those moments. Last game for example his trusted teammates were terrible (team obviously missed Curry who is probably the 2nd best perimeter shot creator).
Quick reminder that you are complaining about a game where THJ lead the Mavs in shot attempts...not Luka. He took some bad 3s but without Curry and Brunson he was left with JJB and Wright as secondary ballhandlers. Worked great. They combined for  1 point in 39 minutes. He clearly should have given more touches to them. Maybe he wouldn´t have to take as many bad shots if Wright wouldn´t hesitate on his wide open ones.

---

There a players on the bench who unfortunately have been deemed 0s offensively by the coach because they cant make 3s. Boban who is shaqlike with pure size/power in the paint scores and boards over anyone with ease and requires an instant double to keep outta position/from catching the ball, and changes the dynamic of the floor with his presence alone.

Boban played 22 minutes against the Bulls. So your complains about him not getting minutes make zero sense in this case.

[hakeemfan]

If fans think that continuing to engage in something that he is currently poor at is based on his injuries or double teaming, it will just continue to be a problem that lingers. Yes he was clearly affected by his injuries but he was still trying to be ball dominant too. Let go and trust your teammates. Mavsluvr mentioned the same thing. Is he also beyond help?


I never said KP anchors the best defense. I am just saying that he always gives effort on both ends even if he is sometimes overmatched due to his frame. You cannot be the most impactful player if you don’t give constant effort on both ends which is the case with Luka.


Which ties to the 3rd point that he is too focused on offense. I don’t agree that he needs to do that. Dirk had casts that were even weaker but very rarely in all those years did you hear about Dirk taking poor shots. Luka does it consistently. Teammates missing are valid counters but Boban the last game gave an element that usually is not there. There are always options if you want to play more efficiently. There are always excuses if one wants to force bad shots. It is up to Luka to decide what he wants to do. Maybe the solution to all this is just working on an element of the game that he currently does not seem to have...drive. stop on a dime, and hit a mid range jumper. I am hoping that will be a major part of his off season work and less reliance on the step back 3.

[dirkfansince1998]

You cannot be the most impactful player if you don’t give constant effort on both ends which is the case with Luka.

Meaning that most great offensive players aren´t the most impactful players on their team? I call BS. Players that carry a heavy load on offense more often than not try to save some energy on defense. LeBron is famous for coasting on defense in the regular season. Harden has been a worse defender than Luka for most of his career. Westbrook chased rebounds instead of playing defense during his MVP season. GS was able to hide Curry and gave him the opportunity to gamble passing lanes.
It´s obviously a different story for bigman. Teams can easily get away with one bad perimeter defender but not a bad center.

KP has to do more on defense because he is playing the most important defensive position. Just like Luka as the primary ballhandler and decision maker is playing the most important position on offense.
There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league. His decision making is good most of the time but of course he also makes mistakes. Just like any other superstar. Harden takes bad shots. LeBron does it. And yes KP does it as well.
Dirks mid and late 2000s supporting casts were more defensive minded and that´s probably the way the Mavs have to go in the future. Right now a good comparisation would be the early 2000s Mavs. Incredible offensive fire power but no defense. It seems like Luka can run an effficient offense without a second star player next to him so it probably makes sense to surround him with more defense in the future.

[omahen]

There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league.

This! In his young age of 21, to add cream on top of the cake. 

But it is probably futile to argue.

[hakeemfan]

There is obviously always room to improve but you are constantly complaining about a player that is easily among the top 5 offensive players in the league.

This! In his young age of 21, to add cream on top of the cake. 

But it is probably futile to argue.

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.

[Fuerza1]

I will call BS on both of you too. 
I have made plenty of posts calling Luka a stud. I hope we have him for the next 20 years However he has a lot to improve upon too and if we are all in agreement there then there is nothing to disagree   However as long as he continues to engage in the bad habits I will not make excuses for him 

Also it is not surprising on this board that Dirkfan1998 twice has ignored that mavsluvr said the same thing for which I am deemed beyond help.  Par for the course on these boards where two people can say the same thing and one is completely ignored while the other is attacked for the same thing.