TRADE: PJ Washington+ 2 2nds To DAL | G. Williams+ Curry+ 2027 FRP (top 2 protected)

[Winter]

I don't recall the Mavs organization being terribly creative at acquiring picks until Nico got here. What happened with Bertans and Holmes seemed like a breath of fresh air during that last draft. I can't recall that kind of thing ever happening with Donnie. This most recent FO seems better equipped to find future picks. Our position is still very thin of course, but I'm perhaps more optimistic now than I was a few years ago.

[youzigizag]

I don't recall the Mavs organization being terribly creative at acquiring picks until Nico got here. What happened with Bertans and Holmes seemed like a breath of fresh air during that last draft. I can't recall that kind of thing ever happening with Donnie. This most recent FO seems better equipped to find future picks. Our position is still very thin of course, but I'm perhaps more optimistic now than I was a few years ago.

Kinda makes the Cuban and Analytics thing seem like a lie.

Im not into analytics...but I assume if you have a staff of analytics guys, ideas like the one you mentioned would be a regular thing.

I watched an hour long interview with Cuban about a year and a half ago...some interesting tidbits...he talked about how in the 90's most of the players smoked weed but now hardly any of the youngsters smoke weed...they are more business minded so to speak.   But the interview came to analytics and Cuban was saying that most of the best businesses in the World are run by math guys.   

Just seems like he has been operating with a short staffed math department, imo.

[dirkfansince1998]

Kinda makes the Cuban and Analytics thing seem like a lie.

Im not into analytics...but I assume if you have a staff of analytics guys, ideas like the one you mentioned would be a regular thing.

I watched an hour long interview with Cuban about a year and a half ago...some interesting tidbits...he talked about how in the 90's most of the players smoked weed but now hardly any of the youngsters smoke weed...they are more business minded so to speak.   But the interview came to analytics and Cuban was saying that most of the best businesses in the World are run by math guys.   

Just seems like he has been operating with a short staffed math department, imo.

Just cannot get over the Cuban quote from the Barnes/Jackson podcast:

"I called the owner in Atlanta. You're not picking Luka. And you know the guy you want. So lets just do this deal. Cause he`ll be there for you. We give you a pick and you know...instead of the GMs messing around we just get this done."

It's not about the staff size. Question is if Cuban is listening to them or going rogue.

[The Jom]

As others have said, it's hard to know what was offered over the summer.  PJ's value was definitely higher this past summer than at this trade deadline.  He was not having a good season prior to this trade deadline.  He was significantly better last season and it's possible he was worth more than the 2027 1st to Charlotte.

I agree with the overall sentiment of your post though.  We continue to include draft assets as if they are party favors.  The 2030 pick swap for Grant Williams is among the worst examples of this and is far worse than the 2027 1st we gave up for PJ Washington.

The farther into the future the draft pick is, the riskier is the move.  The MLE was probably a fair value contract for Grant Williams over the summer.  Providing the option to swap picks with Wembanyama's team in 7 years was an idiot's move.  We could have easily just rejected Reggie Bullock's team option and signed Grant Williams for the MLE without the pick swap.  It's as if we didn't even bother to review Boston's cap situation prior to the offer.   

I like our current team and think we now have a top-10 roster in the NBA.  I think we can be competitive in the playoffs with every team other than Boston.  

However, we are also a Luka trade request from catastrophe.  There is no more hopeless situation in professional sports than an NBA lottery team who doesn't control it's own draft picks for 4 consecutive seasons.  I can rationalize every other deal except the 2030 pick swap.  That seems like just pure Mark Cuban.  The good news is he is no longer the majority owner.  He may still have a voice but he has to answer to someone else now.

Don’t think your memory is quite right here. Mine—faulty though it is—says they were trying to get GW without using the MLE cause they thought they could get an RFA with the MLE. In fact, didn’t they sign Thybulle and then Portland surprised everyone by matching?

[F Gump]

1
The farther into the future the draft pick is, the riskier is the move.  The MLE was probably a fair value contract for Grant Williams over the summer. 
2
Providing the option to swap picks with Wembanyama's team in 7 years was an idiot's move. 
3
We could have easily just rejected Reggie Bullock's team option and signed Grant Williams for the MLE without the pick swap. .

1 That's one way of thinking, but it's exactly backwards if you are trying to build around Luka. With Luka you want picks NOW to improve the team, not later, so the ones you have to offer are those later down the road. See Lively, Derek. Your approach is working under the assumption you will suck and Luka will leave, rather than working to improve. Other teams want to roll the dice on later picks, but if you want to improve now, that is how you play it too -- you offer those later picks they value so highly, use the soonest to improve the roster, and then let them squirm when you are even better later.
2 Not necessarily. Wemby will perhaps make them better. Then again, who knows (it's not like they are winning big so far). And if the Mavs are a good team later (Luka in his prime), the Mavs can have the better record, making the swap worthless. All swaps are like that - and this Mavs team is young, not old.
3  The Mavs can't decline Bullock's PLAYER option for him. They decided he was done (and the NBA seems to agree that he's washed) so wanted him replaced. And he wasn't going to decline it.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Your approach is working under the assumption you will suck and Luka will leave, rather than working to improve.

This is kind of everything right here.  If we operate with fear then we won't move forward.  Obviously risk management needs to exist but the biggest risk that we could make is not putting the best team around Luka now.

[surfpuckmd]

Don’t think your memory is quite right here. Mine—faulty though it is—says they were trying to get GW without using the MLE cause they thought they could get an RFA with the MLE. In fact, didn’t they sign Thybulle and then Portland surprised everyone by matching?

Good and valid point.  It still was a poor use of assets.  

A 2030 pick swap for the rights to secure Grant Williams to a fair market value contract and take a shot that the Trailblazers wouldn't match a below MLE contract on Matisse Thybulle.   That didn't seem wise at the time and now it seems even worse.  

I don't have a problem with Grant Williams.  I just think we have a long history of being careless with draft picks.  This was another example.

[F Gump]

I don't recall the Mavs organization being terribly creative at acquiring picks until Nico Lindsey got here. 

FIFY.

[surfpuckmd]

1 That's one way of thinking, but it's exactly backwards if you are trying to build around Luka. With Luka you want picks NOW to improve the team, not later, so the ones you have to offer are those later down the road. See Lively, Derek. Your approach is working under the assumption you will suck and Luka will leave, rather than working to improve. Other teams want to roll the dice on later picks, but if you want to improve now, that is how you play it too -- you offer those later picks they value so highly, use the soonest to improve the roster, and then let them squirm when you are even better later.
2 Not necessarily. Wemby will perhaps make them better. Then again, who knows (it's not like they are winning big so far). And if the Mavs are a good team later (Luka in his prime), the Mavs can have the better record, making the swap worthless. All swaps are like that - and this Mavs team is young, not old.
3  The Mavs can't decline Bullock's PLAYER option for him. They decided he was done (and the NBA seems to agree that he's washed) so wanted him replaced. And he wasn't going to decline it.

I am OK with using future draft picks to acquire talent now around Luka.  I am concerned though when I think we overpay in draft capital for certain players.

I thought the Kyrie trade was amazing at the time and I loved the discount.  I really liked the Gafford trade as I think he's a really good player on a good contract and a perfect fit on this roster. Those were winning moves.  I thought the Grant Williams trade was absurd though because of the inclusion of the 2030 pick swap.  I also think the PJ Washington trade was dumb.  I like PJ Washington's potential.  I just don't believe he has been that much better than Grant Williams this year that he was worth our almost completely unprotected 2027 1st.  I think we should have made it top-10 protected.  Then it would have been a good deal.  

We seem to target certain players and decide that we must have them regardless of the cost.  Better organizations acquire good players when they feel they can obtain them at good value.  We target the player, announce our intention then pay whatever price is demanded. 

We've made some really good moves over the past year but also a few dumb ones.  

I'm not against trading for talent and I'm not against the players we've acquired.  I simply think we've been careless with draft picks historically and I still see a lot that going on this year.  In this case, we paid too much in assets for Grant Williams and then PJ Washington.  

Also, I'm pretty sure that Bullock's contract was only partially guaranteed.  I believe we could have just waived him and saved significant money.  Instead, we decided to keep him and had to pay something to dump his contract on the Spurs.

[surfpuckmd]

This is kind of everything right here.  If we operate with fear then we won't move forward.  Obviously risk management needs to exist but the biggest risk that we could make is not putting the best team around Luka now.

My biggest issue is just that we usually gladly overpay.  I generally don't think we have been very good at asset management.  I also believe we undervalue draft picks relative to almost every other organization in the NBA.  We trade a lot of draft picks to acquire talent then we pay even more to get rid of those players. We have churned over our roster far quicker than almost any other good team since 2011.  We always seem to be the team giving up picks rather than acquiring them.  I think that's a problem. 

The ironic thing is that the 3 best moves we've made since 2011 have been via the draft.  Luka, Brunson and Lively were all huge hits.  We acquired them with draft picks.  Josh Green and Hardy were really good picks as well.  We've been really good at drafting.  I don't understand why the Mavericks organization seems to hate draft picks so much.  So, we generally don't value the draft even though we're good at it.  Then, we overpay in draft compensation to acquire players then to get rid of them.  

The churn must go on.

[Winter]

I don't understand why the Mavericks organization seems to hate draft picks so much.  So, we generally don't value the draft even though we're good at it.  Then, we overpay in draft compensation to acquire players then to get rid of them.  

The Mavericks have a ticking clock known as Luka Doncic. It's fairly remarkable that we have this player, and I really believe this is the time when you go all out. I posted last year's roster on another thread and it's scary how bad it was.

Would you have been happier doing nothing at the TDL? To me, that would have been criminal. I understand our poor history at managing assets, but I can't bring myself to complain about future picks when we don't even know what they mean in terms of talent. What we have now is what's important to me.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

My biggest issue is just that we usually gladly overpay.  I generally don't think we have been very good at asset management.  I also believe we undervalue draft picks relative to almost every other organization in the NBA.  We trade a lot of draft picks to acquire talent then we pay even more to get rid of those players. We have churned over our roster far quicker than almost any other good team since 2011.  We always seem to be the team giving up picks rather than acquiring them.  I think that's a problem. 

The ironic thing is that the 3 best moves we've made since 2011 have been via the draft.  Luka, Brunson and Lively were all huge hits.  We acquired them with draft picks.  Josh Green and Hardy were really good picks as well.  We've been really good at drafting.  I don't understand why the Mavericks organization seems to hate draft picks so much.  So, we generally don't value the draft even though we're good at it.  Then, we overpay in draft compensation to acquire players then to get rid of them.  

The churn must go on.

The one thing I want to point out is that we acquired Luka by trading future picks. I think that trade and the KP trade get to your point about being flippant about trading draft picks because we were trading those picks without having accomplished anything. I actually think THE WAY we traded for Luka is a bigger issue than gets pointed out around here because there were rumors we could have moved up by eating Kent Bazemores contract instead of trading 2019. That got compounded by trading two future firsts for a dude with a torn ACL when Luka was 19 and we were a lottery team. Those decisions make me mad too but the moves were making now aren’t nearly as pick heavy (we basically used 5 first round picks to put Luka and KP together without having any proof of concept) and the team is a lot of proven out and has a little more of an identity.

[mvossman]

The Mavericks have a ticking clock known as Luka Doncic. It's fairly remarkable that we have this player, and I really believe this is the time when you go all out. I posted last year's roster on another thread and it's scary how bad it was.

Would you have been happier doing nothing at the TDL? To me, that would have been criminal. I understand our poor history at managing assets, but I can't bring myself to complain about future picks when we don't even know what they mean in terms of talent. What we have now is what's important to me.

Don’t think doing nothing would have been criminal. Those trades did not make us a contender. I am much more tolerant of them because they were young players on good contracts, but the goal needs to be contention. Getting healthy and seeing what we actually have before sending out assets would have made a lot of sense. I think the biggest motivator may have been to get off Williams

[surfpuckmd]

The Mavericks have a ticking clock known as Luka Doncic. It's fairly remarkable that we have this player, and I really believe this is the time when you go all out. I posted last year's roster on another thread and it's scary how bad it was.

Would you have been happier doing nothing at the TDL? To me, that would have been criminal. I understand our poor history at managing assets, but I can't bring myself to complain about future picks when we don't even know what they mean in terms of talent. What we have now is what's important to me.

No.  I'm a huge Gafford fan and had pitched several mock trades for Gafford.  I think he is exactly what our roster needed.  I think that was a really good deal and made sense for both teams.  

I like PJ Washington just fine but I think we overpaid.  I would have made that deal if it were the 2027 1st, top-10 protected.  Otherwise, I would have preferred we held onto the pick until the summer.  PJ has a lot of potential to be good but was not good this season prior to the trade.  I think we could have acquired a more clearly ready starter with multiple first round picks this summer.  It may still work out.  I think the 2023-2024 version of PJ Washington wasn't worth such a lightly-protected pick.  

I think Grant Williams may have looked less hopeless next to Gafford than he did next to Dwight Powell.  That combo was just too small and was badly beaten on the boards.

[mvossman]

No.  I'm a huge Gafford fan and had pitched several mock trades for Gafford.  I think he is exactly what our roster needed.  I think that was a really good deal and made sense for both teams.  

I like PJ Washington just fine but I think we overpaid.  I would have made that deal if it were the 2027 1st, top-10 protected.  Otherwise, I would have preferred we held onto the pick until the summer.  PJ has a lot of potential to be good but was not good this season prior to the trade.  I think we could have acquired a more clearly ready starter with multiple first round picks this summer.  It may still work out.  I think the 2023-2024 version of PJ Washington wasn't worth such a lightly-protected pick.  

I think Grant Williams may have looked less hopeless next to Gafford than he did next to Dwight Powell.  That combo was just too small and was badly beaten on the boards.

It’s possible Gafford would had made Williams a more useful player on the court, but he may have gone past the point of no return in the locker room

[surfpuckmd]

The one thing I want to point out is that we acquired Luka by trading future picks. I think that trade and the KP trade get to your point about being flippant about trading draft picks because we were trading those picks without having accomplished anything. I actually think THE WAY we traded for Luka is a bigger issue than gets pointed out around here because there were rumors we could have moved up by eating Kent Bazemores contract instead of trading 2019. That got compounded by trading two future firsts for a dude with a torn ACL when Luka was 19 and we were a lottery team. Those decisions make me mad too but the moves were making now aren’t nearly as pick heavy (we basically used 5 first round picks to put Luka and KP together without having any proof of concept) and the team is a lot of proven out and has a little more of an identity.

If the Kent Bazemore angle is true then that was foolish.

I understand the Porzingis deal and I thought it was a good deal at the time.  Porzingis was an emerging star and those are expensive.  In retrospect, some patience would have been much better.  We have not showed patience as an organization though in 20 years.  There is always some new acquisition or trade that is supposed to save us.  I would like to see more emphasis on player development and stability.  We've been good at that when we've bothered to try.

[surfpuckmd]

It’s possible Gafford would had made Williams a more useful player on the court, but he may have gone past the point of no return in the locker room

That's another concern I have with the Mavericks organization.  I don't understand the character assassinations that come from our organization.  Grant Williams was not considered a problem in his 4 years in Boston.  He was known to be loud and outspoken.  We actually signed him partly because we wanted someone vocal on the court and in the locker room.  Somehow that personality was a problem here.  There have been multiple leaks about how he annoyed everyone on the team.  This summer, Christian Wood and JaVale McGee were somehow locker room disruptors.  Why do we keep breaking up so badly with players?  Why can't we just say something diplomatic and part ways?  Is this Luka, Kidd, Cuban or all of the above?  I don't think it's Nico.  I'm confident that's not him.

[Winter]

Don’t think doing nothing would have been criminal. Those trades did not make us a contender. I am much more tolerant of them because they were young players on good contracts, but the goal needs to be contention. Getting healthy and seeing what we actually have before sending out assets would have made a lot of sense. I think the biggest motivator may have been to get off Williams

The goal is always contention. It was contention five years ago.

You've said all this before, and I understand. I just think the idea of "waiting" has become synonymous with being lazy - at least with this organization. This FO needed to show some creativity and thankfully they did. 

The Mavericks knew what they wanted in their roster and they needed to find a way to get it.

[Smitty]

PJ Washington in Dallas:

114.9 ORTG
89.1 DRTG
25.8 NetRTG
+51

8.7 pts
5.3 rbs
2.0 ast

I saw a tweet that said Dallas didn't NEED offense at the TDL but they MUST get defense.
Defense is what they got! How amazing is it to watch the Mavs play defense now?!

The last three opponents: (OKC) 38.8% FG, (WAS) 41.5% FG, (SAS) 36.7% FG, with an average score of 102.6.

PJW was guarding the team's best player each night. From SGA to Wemby. Incredible.

Just wait till his shot starts falling. Even if PJW is only ever a 9-12 ppg guy with elite defense.. He's the perfect fit for the Luka-led Mavs! We all love Maxi who's a 5-6 ppg player now, who at his best ('19-'20) averaged 9.1.

I hope those that continue to judge the player based on boxscore numbers, instead of impact; or the ones that hold "protected FRP" against him, will take the time to appreciate what he's doing - even when his shot isn't falling.

[MFFL]

I would like to see Washington fill the Aaron Gordon role for this team. Quality player who does his job to make the team work.