I'm out on the 2023-24 season ....

[Scott41theMavs]

I certainly understand the sentiment that people don't enjoy the heliocentric style of basketball but put me in the minority camp that believes you can win a championship this way with the right defense and shooters around the heliocentric player.  The Harden Rockets team was a Chris Paul hamstring and a crazy cold stretch from 3 away from beating THE GREATEST ROSTER EVER ASSEMBLED.  I always feel people point to that team as proof it doesn't work when in reality I would argue the opposite, it's just that no one was beating that Warriors team.  I also love watching Luka pick apart defenses, I've never seen anyone like him do it with such ease (my biggest complaint is that he takes his foot off the gas way too much).  There isn't a player in the league better making half court decisions outside of maybe jokic (and mayyyyyybe haliburton but it's a stretch) so why would I not just spam that over and over and over.  He's picked apart every single defense thrown at him.  We lose games when our defense can't hold up and our shooters can't do their job, not because of Luka heliocentric play.  I've also never understood this idea that heliocentric means others don't get involved.  Luka (and Harden) racked up crazy assist numbers because they're constantly getting others involved and making the right pass.  Yes it's mostly spot up shooting but players like shooting so....I don't see the problem.  I've never heard any teammates complain (might be missing something here), just the media, most love playing with guys like that.  I feel like the complaint is really we want Luka to play off ball more and have someone else initiate which I disagree with because he's the best in the world at it.  We need to keep the pace up though, that's been incredibly helpful in terms of getting some other folks like Green and Exum involved, that's my one big critique and he's certainly trying this year.

This roster doesn't need to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, we just need more talent around our top 2.

After we lost Brunson we basically had 1 player who was good enough to start on a championship roster (and maybe DFS).

After we traded for Kyrie we had 2.

After we drafted Lively we have 3.

We're trending in the right direction, we just have to keep making smart decisions like we did this offseason (although I agree with F Gump that GWill has been a big disappointment).

"Not getting others involved" - Luka expects the other four to be in the right place for his passes, which precludes them doing a damn thing that's basketball-creative. That tends to lower players' future salaries, and is not a fun way to play. It crushingly limits whom the Mavs can attract to play with him.

[SkenfromLMF]

I might have been convinced of the stupid Cuban fantasy trade IF the depth of the upcoming draft made it viable to get another Lively. Unfortunately, the consensus is that this will be the worst draft since 2000 when Dallas bought extra picks and got Etan Thomas and Courtney Alexander. So going for a homerun that results in a lost 2nd half of the season and keeping the pick in '24 is not nearly as attractive/productive as it was in '23.

[mvossman]

I certainly understand the sentiment that people don't enjoy the heliocentric style of basketball but put me in the minority camp that believes you can win a championship this way with the right defense and shooters around the heliocentric player.  The Harden Rockets team was a Chris Paul hamstring and a crazy cold stretch from 3 away from beating THE GREATEST ROSTER EVER ASSEMBLED.  I always feel people point to that team as proof it doesn't work when in reality I would argue the opposite, it's just that no one was beating that Warriors team.  I also love watching Luka pick apart defenses, I've never seen anyone like him do it with such ease (my biggest complaint is that he takes his foot off the gas way too much).  There isn't a player in the league better making half court decisions outside of maybe jokic (and mayyyyyybe haliburton but it's a stretch) so why would I not just spam that over and over and over.  He's picked apart every single defense thrown at him.  We lose games when our defense can't hold up and our shooters can't do their job, not because of Luka heliocentric play.  I've also never understood this idea that heliocentric means others don't get involved.  Luka (and Harden) racked up crazy assist numbers because they're constantly getting others involved and making the right pass.  Yes it's mostly spot up shooting but players like shooting so....I don't see the problem.  I've never heard any teammates complain (might be missing something here), just the media, most love playing with guys like that.  I feel like the complaint is really we want Luka to play off ball more and have someone else initiate which I disagree with because he's the best in the world at it.  We need to keep the pace up though, that's been incredibly helpful in terms of getting some other folks like Green and Exum involved, that's my one big critique and he's certainly trying this year.

This roster doesn't need to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, we just need more talent around our top 2.

After we lost Brunson we basically had 1 player who was good enough to start on a championship roster (and maybe DFS).

After we traded for Kyrie we had 2.

After we drafted Lively we have 3.

We're trending in the right direction, we just have to keep making smart decisions like we did this offseason (although I agree with F Gump that GWill has been a big disappointment).

I would argue with the right guys around Luka it can do more than spot up shooting.  We have seen that with Exum and to a lesser extent DJJ.  Guys that can make something happen on closeouts add a lot to the table.  They just have to be decent enough shooters to be closed out on.

I would also argue that Exum has played well enough to be 5th starter on championship team.  We will see if that continues.

[mvossman]

"Not getting others involved" - Luka expects the other four to be in the right place for his passes, which precludes them doing a damn thing that's basketball-creative. That tends to lower players' future salaries, and is not a fun way to play. It crushingly limits whom the Mavs can attract to play with him.

Brunson did ok for himself.  Exum and DJJ are looking at significant pay raises.  If anything, Kyrie value has probably increased (partially due to lack of incidents).  There are limits, but I don't think its crushing.  Guys who want to dominate the ball likely wont work.  Its not really what we need anyways.  We need guys who can defend, shoot and ideally provide some creation.  Somebody like Bridges would be a perfect fit.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I would argue with the right guys around Luka it can do more than spot up shooting.  We have seen that with Exum and to a lesser extent DJJ.  Guys that can make something happen on closeouts add a lot to the table.  They just have to be decent enough shooters to be closed out on.

I would also argue that Exum has played well enough to be 5th starter on championship team.  We will see if that continues.

I agree whole heartedly.  Not sure what more people were expecting folks like DFS and Bullock to be doing in terms of involving themselves.  I also think that a higher pace contributes to us seeing more people contribute in different ways.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

"Not getting others involved" - Luka expects the other four to be in the right place for his passes, which precludes them doing a damn thing that's basketball-creative. That tends to lower players' future salaries, and is not a fun way to play. It crushingly limits whom the Mavs can attract to play with him.

Being creative doesn't mean you're maximizing you're roster necessarily.  Would you argue that Luka letting Green or Hardy take more of "his" possessions away would be good for this team?  Because I'm sure we could think of creative ways to do that.

Also, the future salaries thing feels like a very case by case basis.  You think Luka hasn't earned people like DFS or DJJ a ton of money by getting them easy looks at the basket?  Would also love to see examples of actual players saying this because all I hear is how great it is to play with someone like Luka.  Fun to play is absolutely subjective.  I loved winning.  I loved shooting.  I would love playing with Luka, those are the people who I played best with in high school and college.  Now fun to watch is certainly something people on this board can talk about but I think you're trying to put words in players mouths without knowing how they feel.

[hakeemfaan]

I want Luka to be unselfish and efficient like Dirk. Jokic plays the way I want Luka to play.

Yet I am fine if Luka never plays like those two.

When we only look through certain lenses we forget the times where Dirk was too unselfish for his own good. We forget how Dirk needed to go through a lot of lessons to push himself to be more of a killer. We forget how many times Jokic struggled.

Luka, like his style or not, will not go out meekly. So when it doesn’t work one can complain about his style but you will never complain that Luka was invisible. So it is totally wrong to compare him with Harden whose numbers and even performance dipped the deeper he went.

Luka is a freak. Sometimes I feel offense is too easy for him. He can score 40 every night just staying near the free throw area and being highly efficient . Truly one of the most special offensive talents. His creativity and touch around the rim is just amazing. However he likes that three point shot off the dibble. What to do? At first I bought the explanation that those shots open up the lane for him to drive. I no longer believe that. As mentioned he is a fantastic player close to the rim as well. Able to bully smaller players and. frustrate bigger players.

Luka is also a heckuva passer. His creativity and strength to make passes to the opposite side with zing is only matched by Bron. Even Jokic can’t do it off the dribble consistently like Luka does.

This is a special talent. He can be selfish but I would not compare him to Harden or anyone else. This is a totally unique offensive machine.

Enjoy this guy than pick aprt his warts. I don’t see him ending his career here. Hopefully he can carry the team to a couple of rings here. Hopefully he matures a bit more. Don’t let any of that get in the way of just sitting back and flat out enjoying his talent. Hopefully mgmt addresses a couple of other key issues so that the team around him is also better

[Chicagojk]

The more I see this team play, the more pointless this season becomes. To be frank, they are mediocre. A good game here and there, then lots of bad ones.

They are too small, too inefficient, too inconsistent. They don't defend. The coaching is pedestrian.

Although Lively was a good pick, the upper management has been quite inept in roster building. Each summer is an exercise in spending their biggest chunk of possible spending on a player that sucks. In 2021 it was Bullock, who had a fairly good latter half of 1st season here (and  really good playoff run), but otherwise was a spare until they paid SA a FRP to take him. In 2022 it was McGee, who they waived and will be paying for 5 years to go away. In 2023 it was G Williams. Instead of bringing help to the roster, they repeatedly bring baggage that gets in the way.

The cheapies are a mixed bag. Exum and DJJ have been helpful, but they were also in the mix with Powell (same old spareness, just at a cheaper price now), Morris, Curry. And is anyone excited that Kleber is going to be here for 2 more seasons after this one? The general observation is that they just don't know how to identify a good player from a meh one, and have to hope to luck into talent.

Luka trying to win with his hero ball (for the most part) raises the ceiling to win any game, but also is quite unreliable. He's still likely to get plenty of numbers, but he hasn't shown to be the foundation of an elite team to me. If there's a formula to build around him, this FO doesn't seem to know it.

I would want them to tank, and hope for another Lively, except the 2024 draft is thought to be incredibly sucky.

So the alternative is what? The vast majority of the players around Luka-Kyrie-Lively don't seem all that useful. Is there any reason they shouldn't be a mass seller rather than a buyer? Or do they even have anything to sell? If they had the chance, I think I would would get rid of most of the roster and start over.

I don't see the point in watching this crap, nor a route to altering it. 

If you think I'm wrong, let me know what the answer is.

This year has been a drag lately, I agree.   I think the Mavs need to be opportunistic, but they need to be patient and careful as well.  The next big trade(s) need to work.  There are a bunch of teams in the win it now window, but the scary part is what is coming up behind them (or with OKC with them).   Get the next few moves wrong and we can start the Luka leaving countdown imo.  Get them right, this team is right in that contender window.

I do think if this team loses in the playin or is a quick exit in the first round, whoever is making the basketball decisions needs to have a frank discussion if the coach is the right one to lead the team forward.   This goes beyond if the players like him and if you like the Coach as a person.  It is business.   I am not saying Kidd needs to be fired, but if this team disappoints again that question needs to be seriously considered.

With that being said, I still think my main objectives for the season back in September still hold true.   

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=2712

[vfromlmf]

Whole bunch of people wanted to trade Dirk. Called him soft.

[KillerLeft]

Whole bunch of people wanted to trade Dirk. Called him soft.

For sure.  And that's a great reminder of how things change with time. These guys are human. 

Still...Maybe I'm wrong about this, but Luka showed up with a lot more promise and confidence than Dirk had. My recollection is that the organization and fans were more confident about Dirk's talent than he was, himself. Luka wanted to stake his claim as one of the best from day 1. 

It might just be me, but if Luka's Mavs career plays out like Dirk's, with only one title that nobody sees coming...I'll be a little disappointed.

[ThisIStheYear]

Time to tank.

[KillerLeft]

Time to tank.

Can’t think that way, because all that will do is extend the time Kidd works here. 

 I swear to God, if Carlisle had this roster they would be a top 4 team in the West. 

What do you want is not for the Mavericks to tank, you want Cuban to think they should be contending.

[ThisIStheYear]

lol. The Mavs can’t possibly bring Kidd back after these last three games. They need to bring in a strict disciplinarian coach.

[SwisherPrice]

Yeah this team is done. Even some trades at the deadline may not save them.

[SleepingHero]

The title of this thread should read:

"I'm out on the 2023-24 season... BECAUSE JASON KIDD IS THE BUBONIC PLAGUE OF BASKETBALL"

[chaparral]

This reporter must have read this thread. The 2nd half of the article is below from Kirk Henderson of SB Nation. The 1st half of the article is about the Sun's game in the link at the bottom.

"Something’s rotten right now with these Dallas Mavericks"

In the big picture sense, the Mavericks have a lot of built-in excuses. They’ve had a lot of injuries and games missed to key players. That lack of continuity is a big challenge, there’s no doubt about it.

And yet, once the ball is rolled out on the floor, a team has to play with who they have available. These last three losses have been the kind of bad that makes a fan (and, potentially a team) question what in the hell we’re even doing here. Depending on what personal bias you bring to the table, you likely have a complaint to bring to the table about this loss and why it happened.

If you’re a Luka Doncic hater, you have to ask yourself why on Earth he kept forcing the issue to end the first half, being personally responsible for a tough run from the Suns due to his bad shot selection then bad decision-making on passes, topping everything off with a ridiculous technical foul where, and this is important, whatever he was whining about was not worth getting a technical over. Later in the game, he had a Suns fan ejected, one who’d been taunting him the whole contest, but the last straw was a barb about needing to get on the treadmill. I find myself feeling ashamed for Luka for that call.

If you’re tired of head coach Jason Kidd, you’re openly questioning what he does. During the aforementioned first-quarter run, he didn’t call a timeout, wandering around with his hands in his pockets. In the third quarter, when the run continued and Grant Williams picked up his second tech resulting in an ejection and Jones Jr. got a tech after getting knocked down following a dunk, did he stand up for his players? Did he show any emotion? Did he lead? Or did he look like an employee with a punch card, just looking to be done for work with the day?

If you’re tired of Grant Williams, like I am, you’re probably wondering what he was supposed to bring to this team at all. He finally had a decent offensive performance, then got a stupid tech, stepping over and disrespecting Kevin Durant, picked up his third foul four minutes into the second, hurting the Dallas offense, and then getting kicked out arguing a non-call after an attempted charge. But keep posting memes on social media buddy, that will help. Instead of, you know, just playing better.

Of course, these are just three examples from within one game. There’s so much more and I need to finish this article up already. I’ve held the line that being above .500 like the Mavericks are is a good thing because tough times were coming. But, frankly, I’m sick of feeling like I’m wasting my time watching a team that behaves as if basketball is a chore and not a joy. It’s basketball. It’s a game. It should be fun.

Dallas had that joy for most of the first half, but hot shooting is not a sustainable path to success. All of these players, all of the coaches, heck even the front office and the team governor, need to look themselves in the mirror and ask what they’re even doing this for. And if the answer doesn’t have something to do with showing pride and playing hard, meaningful basketball night in and night out, then maybe it’s time to find another line of work.

I’ve rambled for years that expectations are the thief of joy because it’s true. But I want better. I demand better from this team. It’s gut-check time for these Mavericks. I hope with all of my heart that they respond.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/o...d=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=ba6a35c0aad44d6fb1b57bedf7557913&ei=13

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

This team needs a trade and a good coach.
If you retain Kidd, the team won't get anywhere.

[Jakeospikez]

Imo anyone trying to start turning on and putting heavy blame on Luka is either just a straight up moron or some double agent for another team trying to get him traded. Even if he is a horrible defender, it shouldn't be that difficult to build a good defensive team around him while he can carry an offense to be good enough on his own. Of course other teams are going to hunt him to try and tire him out so he isn't as energetic on offense. Whatever analytics the FO is using for free agent signings they probably need to throw in the trash can cause it is pretty awful. Any box score analyzer algorithm that said Grant Williams would be great here in his role with our surrounding pieces is straight up trash. Probably need to use their eyes a bit more than box score analyzers I'm guessing. Other recent cheap FA signings noted in this thread have been trash as well other than Exum/Djj. Playing without a real PF for a year and a half is a pretty amazing accomplishment but anyway Lively has a decent chance to be the perfect 5 the team has been missing esp if he can shoot a bit and a starting quality 4 with proper size and athleticism needs to be brought in either by this TDL or next summer that can bridge the gap while OMax finishes developing, then things will be more bearable.

[Jym]

Just annoying that so many of our "yeah that makes sense" moves in the past decade have ended up being such failures.
Who saw Green, GWill and Hardy combining for 23 ppg this season?
Thank god we at least signed DDJ and Exum but I don't trust either to be a consistent playoff contributor
So much of what we needed to happen this year revolved around GWill and Green establishing themselves at decently solid 2-way players
At times they look like no-way players

Also <3 Lively <3

[Jason Terry]

Seems like 2 big problems to solve for:

1) Luka whining/fire the coach/get a better system- Who is the right coach for this team? A players coach like Kidd who lets Luka do whatever he wants seems to be a wrong answer. Will Luka accept a strong willed disciplinarian coach? Will Luka accept a totally different offensive/defensive philosophy that’s not so heliocentric?…….i think the answer is a coach with a great basketball mind. One who can work with Luka to outfox the other team. One who he respects in a “father figure” way and he will do as told

2) Who are the right players to build a team around Luka? This ties in to question 1. Should we change our play style? The players who have left Luka(KP, JB) have gone on to be some of the best players in the league. Why? This needs to be solved

It seems like the first big domino that needs to fall is Kidd. Replacing him with the right guy won’t be easy