I'm out on the 2023-24 season ....

[RGP1981]

Luka is a boss and a good natured guy too. How can you not like him? The Mavs are real fortunate to have him.

If y'all don't like him, trade him to the Utah Jazz, and watch him win multiple titles.

[Nowitzki Way]

Luka is a boss and a good natured guy too. How can you not like him? The Mavs are real fortunate to have him.

If y'all don't like him, trade him to the Utah Jazz, and watch him win multiple titles.

I think i'm on of the few that actually likes your idea to merge the Jazz and Mavs to make one team.

But even then, i dont think that team would win multiple titles. Or even one title. 

And Luka will be one of the greats. Cool cat off the court. But he's a punk on the court, and not in a good way.

[KillerLeft]

Coincidence.

I cancelled my Fubo TV/Bally subscription today. I just don’t get joy from watching this team. Part of it is probably watching too much sports for the last 30 years. Part of it is I just don’t connect with this team. Both the style of play and the superstar annoy me. I’m a big Steph and Jokic fan and I just can’t stand the diva behavior and the iso ball. I don’t care how efficient this offense might be. Ball movement basketball is beautiful to watch. This Harden ball isn’t. It feels like a chore watching games.

Honestly I can’t stand Luka. The fake tough guy thing where he’d probably get his ass whooped by most people he talks shit to if he did it on the street. The constant complaining with the referees. The constant not running back on defense and ball watching. The yelling at teammates when they make mistakes. The showing up to games hungover. Hunting triple doubles like Westbrook and Harden. His act has gotten old to me.

It’s not even about oh if they had a better roster I’d love the team.

DISCLAIMER: I quoted the post above to reply, but the longer I typed the more this became about the entire topic of this thread, not just the quoted post.  Feel free to skip if you're not interested.

I'm not there yet, but in all honesty I get this POV. I've had thoughts like this 100 times over the past two seasons. 

The reality is that we'd miss him a ton if he left - it would totally gut the franchise (just look what losing Brunson did). But, that doesn't change the frustration quotient on any of the notes above, all of which I believe have some validity. 

I don't think Luka is a finished product, and I've been saying so for years. It has gotten me a lot of flak around here, but to me, he's just a kid. You could put the PERFECT, most complementary team around him overnight tonight, and I don't think he's even close to being able to win an NBA championship. Seriously, not close. NBA championships seem like they are usually won by MEN (28-35?) and Luka is clearly still a boy. 

I don't feel bad about saying this, or worried about him, because he's getting older. He's learning. He's improving all the time. We know he's beyond gifted. We know he's beyond competitive. I still believe that HE will get there. What I'm more than a little worried about is whether how the organization is treating him is the right way to get him there fastest (or at all). I do not think he should be allowed to loaf on transition defense. I do not think he should be allowed to play half court defense as lazily as he does at times. I think there should be consequences to being out of shape at key times on the calendar year. I think there should be consequences to consuming alcohol during the season.

My BIGGEST worry, however, is this whole "can't waste a year of Luka" mentality that has infected the thinking of so many. He's not ready. Building a team the RIGHT way, the ORGANIC way, the SMART way, taking your time to do it on HIS timeline...that's not "wasting" anything. That's just good team building. I was all for the Porzinigis trade with NY at the time, but once that didn't work, chances of a quick-build title were over. Period. The Mavs no longer had the draft capital to do it that way. They blew their wad on a shiny toy, and the toy wasn't fun to play with. Oh, well. 

I was ready to give up around this time LAST YEAR, some of you might remember. Bad team. Bad coach. Same complaints about Luka, only much WORSE (Omahen is correct, imo - he has improved with some of this stuff since last year). No assets. No young talent. No HOPE. 

Then, they did the unimaginable - they had a good summer. I'm dumfounded that Williams is this bad, I'll admit it. That looks like a misstep at the moment, but I haven't totally given up. Even still, Lively was a home run. I believe O-Max will be even MORE valuable than Lively, given time and opportunity. Exum is a piece it looks like they can count on for a while. Green's new contract is great. They got Powell back on a great contract, and he's playing well lately. DJJ was a great signing for this season, at least. I hope it works out in the future, but either way he's good now. 

You can't undo almost a decade of awful with one summer of good. That's not how anything in life works. It's tempting as fans to check the clock that's been running since the night Luka was drafted, but that's just not real. The reality is that the first several years went up in smoke with that Porzingis trade, and with losing Brunson for nothing. FAILURE - no ifs, ands or buts. 

This is a new clock. The post-Donnie, post-Carlisle clock. So far, I would attribute the new team with one abysmal off-season and one that's much better than almost any Mavs off-season I can remember. Look how much hope that ONE good summer ushered in! Look how much more they have to work with on the trade market! Look how much more we have to argue about, as in "no way I put that young player in that deal - he's going to be great!" Right or wrong on those assessments, they have young talent again!!!

I didn't believe they could dig the team even this far out of the ditch. Straight up, this time last year I thought we were just in a holding pattern until Luka left. It was just hard to see what they could accomplish with NO ASSETS. In one summer they got me interested again. Now, I totally agree that we're zeroing in on the ceiling for the current team, and that can certainly be depressing. However, if one good summer can get them this far, what would ANOTHER good summer do? Am I the only one cautiously optimistic that this past summer is indicative of organizational improvement?

[Nowitzki Way]

I don't think Luka is a finished product, and I've been saying so for years. It has gotten me a lot of flak around here, but to me, he's just a kid. You could put the PERFECT, most complementary team around him overnight tonight, and I don't think he's even close to being able to win an NBA championship. Seriously, not close. NBA championships seem like they are usually won by MEN (28-35?) and Luka is clearly still a boy. 

I love what you mentioned about NBA championships being won by MEN.  I completely agree. Except that Luka is different man. Thats the only way to describe him. That MAN is built different. He was born to win championships. He will go down as one of the all time greats. And i'm talking top 10 all time greats.  He's accomplished so much at a young age, setting records no one could imagine.  His game is ready, but his mind isnt.  You have to surround him with the right complimentary pieces and the right staff. And the right handlers.  He needs a couple of Bobans on his team. He needs even more around him and the team daily. 

But with all that said, i'm almost out on Luka. And as early as this off-season i'd look at making a franchise shattering / NBA shattering trade.  It would probably have to be Luka to OKC because they are the only team i can think of that has the draft capital and young players to pull off a Luka trade. 

Now of course, our relationship with Luka could crash and he could force a trade. Which i think would lower his value. Agents get involved, other powerful people in the league get involved, and Luka basically gets traded to wherever he wants and we get shorted on assets.  

But if you trade him now. On your timeline, we can maximize his value.  I love thinking of hypothetical Luka trades. Because no matter what, you look at it and think that team just gave up their entire franchise for Luka. Then you look again and realize its probably not enough.

[hakeemfaan]

I still feel we are way ahead of many teams. You do have two offensive savants and I don’t use those words lightly. Most teams would love to have even one of those let alone get both.

I also buy into the philosophy that roses have thorns too but the beauty of the rose is so much that people don’t care about the thorns. There will always be shortcomings on any team. Even the 2011 team had. The issue is can managaement improve certain areas to hide those thorns. Luka and Kyrie will never be great defenders. However if GS can be a dynasty with Curry who does less things for his team than does Luka then we should be able to build a.championship team around Luka.

To start with we always need a mobile defensive center on the court. Capella? Who else fits that bill? I am still not sure why McGee didn’t work out. I am not looking for a franchise center or a center who can hit 3s. Give me a mobile defensive center to pair with Lively.

We need one more creator. I hear the arguments against Murray but if he is available you absolutely have to see what it would take to get him. The one deep run we made during Luka’s tenure came with a 3 creators rotation. Having 3 guys who can create, especially with all of them being legit good, poses a lot of issues for defenses

Give me those two fixes. When you address certain things and the rest of the crew move down in the pecking order the team will look much much better. Warts or not.

[omahen]

I love what you mentioned about NBA championships being won by MEN.  I completely agree. Except that Luka is different man. Thats the only way to describe him. That MAN is built different. He was born to win championships. He will go down as one of the all time greats. And i'm talking top 10 all time greats.  He's accomplished so much at a young age, setting records no one could imagine.  His game is ready, but his mind isnt.  You have to surround him with the right complimentary pieces and the right staff. And the right handlers.  He needs a couple of Bobans on his team. He needs even more around him and the team daily. 

But with all that said, i'm almost out on Luka. And as early as this off-season i'd look at making a franchise shattering / NBA shattering trade.  It would probably have to be Luka to OKC because they are the only team i can think of that has the draft capital and young players to pull off a Luka trade. 

Now of course, our relationship with Luka could crash and he could force a trade. Which i think would lower his value. Agents get involved, other powerful people in the league get involved, and Luka basically gets traded to wherever he wants and we get shorted on assets.  

But if you trade him now. On your timeline, we can maximize his value.  I love thinking of hypothetical Luka trades. Because no matter what, you look at it and think that team just gave up their entire franchise for Luka. Then you look again and realize its probably not enough.

Not sure you realize how difficult it is to get a player as good as Luka. How many tanking and rebuilding jobs don't work. The only job of the FO should be to put the right pieces around him. Playing quality wise and personality wise. My claim is, Mavs never did that before perhaps a year ago. Irving is the first respected vet Luka played with after Dirk. Irving is not a player on his last legs like guys like Reddick were. Or even Dragic, if that deal ever happened. Irving might not be a perfect running mate because of defensive limitations, but getting him showed how easier life can be with another star on the team. Exum and DJJ also showed what kind of players flourish next to Luka and make team play really well on both ends. 

I said that many times - Luka was best player on championship team (Real), but he was surrounded by battle hardened vets. They were the ones keeping his personality in check, leaders of the team. Europe is also not a player driven league, coach is god. No way a player can survive not being in line with coach, unless the coach loses whole locker room and results suffer. Mavs never gave him that. Luka was thrown into the leader role after Dirk retired. In a franchise that is a mess culture wise. They gave him a young co-star which backfired badly. A hard nosed star that had to fight for everything he got in his career walked for nothing and Mavs never seemed to value him. I also pointed it out many times in the past - what kind of role model is Cuban for a guy like Luka? Cuban seems to be 10 times the child Luka is. Owner and GM "wanna be" who behaves as a typical emotional fan. Ballmer is the same, but he lets other, less emotionally involved, people to run the team. 

Luka is who he is, with all his pluses and minuses. He is passionate and emotional which is great, because it means he cares. However, it also gets him into trouble more than the average player. When he wants to have it but he doesn't (shots not falling, for example), he can look for excuses in others (refs most often target). His extreme competitiveness makes him perform at his best when it matters most but is also a reason why he can't motivate himself in what seems like easier games. As Killer said, it takes years of growing up to correct that. Perhaps it will also not happen. But, you can help with that putting right players around him. Players that can make up for his mistakes when he is not 100 %. Players or organization that have the credibility to tell him to shut up and start playing. Mavs problem last season was that they only won, even against worst teams, when Luka gave his 120 % game. No one was stepping up when he didn't play defense, no one was stepping up when his offense was not there. This season is much easier. 

I am not really sure what makes people expect absolute perfection from other people. Are there so many perfect human beings around? I think the vast majority of people have their positive and negative attributes. I rather try to focus on the positives and I can see many with Luka. People here like to point out the instances when Luka doesn't return back to defense, but stay totally quiet in instances when Luka is throwing his big body after a loose ball. There were many instances of that just in this season. You think that is fair?

The most important thing for me - I am very confident Luka will be at his best when it matters most. Mavs need to have a capable enough team that will go through regular season even on nights when Luka will not have it. Not possible against best teams, but at least against bad or depleted ones. Get a defensive general who will motivate everyone to play defense (thats why I was very pro Draymond), get vet leaders that will lead by example (thats why I was very pro Lowry back in the day). Or wait patiently for Luka to hopefully learn from his mistakes. One thing he certainly showed - he is improving all the time.

[KillerLeft]

I still feel we are way ahead of many teams. You do have two offensive savants and I don’t use those words lightly.  Most teams would love to have even one of those let alone get both.

I also buy into the philosophy that roses have thorns too but the beauty of the rose is so much that people don’t care about the thorns. There will always be shortcomings on any team. Even the 2011 team had.  The issue is can managaement improve certain areas to hide those thorns. Luka and Kyrie will never be great defenders. However if GS can be a dynasty with Curry who does less things for his team than does Luka then we should be able to build a.championship team around Luka.

To start with we always need a mobile defensive center on the court.  Capella? Who else fits that bill?  I am still not sure why McGee didn’t work out.  I am not looking for a franchise center or a center who can hit 3s. Give me a mobile defensive center to pair with Lively.

We need one more creator. I hear the arguments against Murray but if he is available you absolutely have to see what it would take to get him.  The one deep run we made during Luka’s tenure came with a 3 creators rotation. Having 3 guys who can create, especially with all of them being legit good, poses a lot of issues for defenses

Give me those two fixes. When you address certain things and the rest of the crew move down in the pecking order the team will look much much better. Warts or not.

I am very close to this level of optimism. I agree with everything here. 

Honestly, if it weren't for the nagging worry I have that Kidd might actually be one of the very worst coaches in the NBA, I think I'd be thrilled about where the team is right now.

[hakeemfaan]

I am very close to this level of optimism. I agree with everything here. 

Honestly, if it weren't for the nagging worry I have that Kidd might actually be one of the very worst coaches in the NBA, I think I'd be thrilled about where the team is right now.

That’s another argument in favor of the 3 creator system. Kidd was at his best when he had 3 guys doing their own thing with no plays drawn, while all he had to do was pump up Josh Green to play hard.

[omahen]

Let me share a personal story how I became a Luka fan. I am 45, always loved basketball, playing it, following it. Had many players that I liked and more that I didn't, but I was never really a fan.

Slovenia as you know is a very small nation of only two million people and we have an average mentality where we use the fact that we are a small nation as an excuse. Basketball is one of the more popular sports and we had (on paper) a very decent team many times. A team that could compete for top places at European level. But every time we went in competitions with "we are small so should be happy to be top 8" mentality. We basically failed at every competition, many times losing key games against (on paper) far worse competitors, lost elimination games after being great in group stage or lost elimination games after being a better team for 35 minutes of the game. Basically losers. Really long and emotionally draining history of bad losses. I always hated that mentality. Being a small country is not an excuse if you have a good team.

Than in 2017 comes this 17 year old kid to the start of national team training camp. He had his first season with Real - had plenty of nice moments, but he was not the best player yet. Slovenia had peak Dragic, but other than that very average team. Just installed Kokoskov as the coach and gave citizenship to a decent Euroleague player Randolph, I think everyone else was playing at lower levels. So this kid comes and when he was asked by the media what he came for, he just fires without thinking for a second - a medal!! I was like, ok, who are you to speak about a medal, you did nothing in your career, be happy to get some playing time. Top 8 is probably the realistic goal for this team, I thought. You know how it went, Slovenia won its first (and still only EU championship) with Luka being in the first team of the tournament. This was the moment he won me over and following seasons only confirmed to me he is a natural born winner. Not a natural born leader, but a natural born winner.

[Nowitzki Way]

Not sure you realize how difficult it is to get a player as good as Luka. How many tanking and rebuilding jobs don't work. The only job of the FO should be to put the right pieces around him.

Disclaimer: the following rant is not aimed at you. Just continuing to play Devil's advocate on the Luka/Mavs marriage. 

I think we all know how difficult it is to find a Luka talent.  We got lucky to get Dirk, and we got lucky to get Luka.  I've been a Mavs fan since 1990, and some of us have been around for much longer.  We've seen rebuilds and we've seen dumpster fires. We've seen championships and more rebuilds. 

As mentioned, Luka will end up one of top 10 best players of all time. He's that good. But that doesn't mean i have to like him.  And if life long fans start turning on the guy, you have to wonder what could happen if teammates, coaches, front office, ownership start to sour on him also. Then what if he sours on the Mavs. As mentioned, we threw him into the fire as a leader. We have surrounded him with mis-fitting parts. We've traded away or released his best friends on the team (DSJ, Brunson, DFS, Boban).  Luka is a born winner. And he will win championships. Multiple in fact.  But does he do it here?

If he decides he wants out, he's leaving.  This is an agent / star player driven league. If Luka wants to play with his buddy Jokic, he's gone. If he wants Giannis, he's gone.  My view is, i hope our braintrust knows this also. And knows how to maximize his value if it were to happen. And the way to  do that is get ahead of it. Trade him before he asks out. 

And then thats where our fantasy brain kicks in and starts thinking of fake Luka trades. And thats when you get sad and hope he's here another 15 years. And finishes as a top 3 all-time scorer with at least 3 Larry O'Brien's.

[Scott41theMavs]

To start with we always need a mobile defensive center on the court.  Capella? Who else fits that bill?  I am still not sure why McGee didn’t work out.  I am not looking for a franchise center or a center who can hit 3s. Give me a mobile defensive center to pair with Lively.

In the midst of this grand Luka discussion, I just want to say that Lively's skillset and learning-capacity-BBIQ points to him being able to become a switchable center sooner than most people believe possible. This is actually one of the very first possibilities I saw with him as early as the summer league. Not sure why so many are selling him short in this area. He has the smarts and the physical tools to achieve it.

[hakeemfaan]

In the midst of this grand Luka discussion, I just want to say that Lively's skillset and learning-capacity-BBIQ points to him being able to become a switchable center sooner than most people believe possible. This is actually one of the very first possibilities I saw with him as early as the summer league. Not sure why so many are selling him short in this area. He has the smarts and the physical tools to achieve it.

I already ate my humble pie on being wrong about Lively. I am saying we need a version of him all the time on the court. That will not fully solve but to a certain manageable extent will mask deficiencies on the defensive end that Luka and Kyrie bring.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

The folks who think getting rid of Luka will help should go back and watch the games from 2016 and 2017 and then come back to this thread.

This team wasn't a contender going into it but the basketball is slightly better than last year and the asset management in light years ahead of last year. This team was always going to be a 41-43 win team, it's weird that losing to arguably the best team in the league has people up in arms.

This board may explode if they lose the next 2. Tonight will be very tough but it's a better matchup for us than the Celtics.

[KillerLeft]

The folks who think getting rid of Luka will help should go back and watch the games from 2016 and 2017 and then come back to this thread.

This team wasn't a contender going into it but the basketball is slightly better than last year and the asset management in light years ahead of last year.  This team was always going to be a 41-43 win team, it's weird that losing to arguably the best team in the league has people up in arms.

This board may explode if they lose the next 2.  Tonight will be very tough but it's a better matchup for us than the Celtics.

I think they'll win more games than that, but I'm on board with this post.

[mvossman]

That’s another argument in favor of the 3 creator system. Kidd was at his best when he had 3 guys doing their own thing with no plays drawn, while all he had to do was pump up Josh Green to play hard.

I am all for getting a third creator, but I really think that guy needs to be able to play D.  It worked well two years ago because Dinwiddie came off the bench.  Its hard to find an elite creator willing to come off the bench (Din worked his way into the starting lineup the following year) and playing three defensively compromised creators together will get exposed in the playoffs.

[KillerLeft]

Re "three creators" I think the current plan is to have two with more overlap in minutes than usual (Luka and Kyrie) but to put players around them who can actually floor the ball and make decisions. The WCF team didn't have that second type of player at all, hence the need for three of the first type.

Exum is that second type, as is Green (almost). It's plain to see they're trying to get DJJ, Powell, Kleber, Lively, Hardy and Williams to be more aggressive with the ball and decision making. That is very clearly a concerted effort, and one of the things Carlisle would not have done that I might actually end up liking (if it works).

That's why Cuban says "someone at least 6'8" WHO CAN DRIBBLE." That's what THEY think the team needs: more secondary playmaking from basically every position, and they feel like they have the least of it with their bigger guys.

[BigDirk41]

The folks who think getting rid of Luka will help should go back and watch the games from 2016 and 2017 and then come back to this thread.

This team wasn't a contender going into it but the basketball is slightly better than last year and the asset management in light years ahead of last year.  This team was always going to be a 41-43 win team, it's weird that losing to arguably the best team in the league has people up in arms.

This board may explode if they lose the next 2.  Tonight will be very tough but it's a better matchup for us than the Celtics.

This doesn't have anything to do with the last few games. It's just overall frustration building up from the Luka years. I personally don't enjoy watching him play and that isn't going to change without a different system. He's an improved prime Harden. That isn't going to win championships. Until someone can reign him in and make him play team basketball where everyone is involved, this team will never win a title. I would have zero problems if the Mavs traded Luka tomorrow. I'm not going to get into everything I dislike about Luka because it's been covered pretty well in this thread. He will be a top 10 talent of all time when it's over, but he'll have zero championships if he continues playing iso hero ball.

[Scott41theMavs]

This doesn't have anything to do with the last few games. It's just overall frustration building up from the Luka years. I personally don't enjoy watching him play and that isn't going to change without a different system. He's an improved prime Harden. That isn't going to win championships. Until someone can reign him in and make him play team basketball where everyone is involved, this team will never win a title. I would have zero problems if the Mavs traded Luka tomorrow. I'm not going to get into everything I dislike about Luka because it's been covered pretty well in this thread. He will be a top 10 talent of all time when it's over, but he'll have zero championships if he continues playing iso hero ball.

Agree with everything here except the "trade Luka" thing. 

As someone else said, the only reasonable trade partner for such a thing would be OKC. SGA, one of their other top players, three of their warchest FRPs from lottery level teams, and three more of their own on top of that. But I guarantee you Luka wouldn't want to play for OKC.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

This doesn't have anything to do with the last few games. It's just overall frustration building up from the Luka years. I personally don't enjoy watching him play and that isn't going to change without a different system. He's an improved prime Harden. That isn't going to win championships. Until someone can reign him in and make him play team basketball where everyone is involved, this team will never win a title. I would have zero problems if the Mavs traded Luka tomorrow. I'm not going to get into everything I dislike about Luka because it's been covered pretty well in this thread. He will be a top 10 talent of all time when it's over, but he'll have zero championships if he continues playing iso hero ball.

I certainly understand the sentiment that people don't enjoy the heliocentric style of basketball but put me in the minority camp that believes you can win a championship this way with the right defense and shooters around the heliocentric player.  The Harden Rockets team was a Chris Paul hamstring and a crazy cold stretch from 3 away from beating THE GREATEST ROSTER EVER ASSEMBLED.  I always feel people point to that team as proof it doesn't work when in reality I would argue the opposite, it's just that no one was beating that Warriors team.  I also love watching Luka pick apart defenses, I've never seen anyone like him do it with such ease (my biggest complaint is that he takes his foot off the gas way too much).  There isn't a player in the league better making half court decisions outside of maybe jokic (and mayyyyyybe haliburton but it's a stretch) so why would I not just spam that over and over and over.  He's picked apart every single defense thrown at him.  We lose games when our defense can't hold up and our shooters can't do their job, not because of Luka heliocentric play.  I've also never understood this idea that heliocentric means others don't get involved.  Luka (and Harden) racked up crazy assist numbers because they're constantly getting others involved and making the right pass.  Yes it's mostly spot up shooting but players like shooting so....I don't see the problem.  I've never heard any teammates complain (might be missing something here), just the media, most love playing with guys like that.  I feel like the complaint is really we want Luka to play off ball more and have someone else initiate which I disagree with because he's the best in the world at it.  We need to keep the pace up though, that's been incredibly helpful in terms of getting some other folks like Green and Exum involved, that's my one big critique and he's certainly trying this year.

This roster doesn't need to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, we just need more talent around our top 2.

After we lost Brunson we basically had 1 player who was good enough to start on a championship roster (and maybe DFS).

After we traded for Kyrie we had 2.

After we drafted Lively we have 3.

We're trending in the right direction, we just have to keep making smart decisions like we did this offseason (although I agree with F Gump that GWill has been a big disappointment).

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I think they'll win more games than that, but I'm on board with this post.

They might, I think they're better than their record but the health has been a problem enough early on again that it will be hard to reach 45 or more this year. I certainly think they'll win more next year as long as they make a few more smart moves and not go all in on a stupid Cuban fantasy trade in the next couple weeks.