Cuban has sold the Mavs to Adelson-Dumont Family

[hakeemfaan]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/wha...r-AA1kOWhR

I think F Gump is spot on with the assessment that most of the media reporting about Cuban having control of basketball operations is lazy reporting. He is not in control anymore if this deal goes through regardless of what his title says.  It seems to be a matter of time before he is officially out or relegated. Which to be honest is not something I will shed a tear over. Cuban has been a poor owner for a while now. 

Only concern is if the legalized gambling thing doesn’t pass and the As move the team to LV.

[ItsGoTime]

Plausible deniability for the decision to fire Kidd?

[F Gump]

I think F Gump is spot on with the assessment that most of the media reporting about Cuban having control of basketball operations is lazy reporting. He is not in control anymore if this deal goes through regardless of what his title says.  It seems to be a matter of time before he is officially out or relegated. Which to be honest is not something I will shed a tear over. Cuban has been a poor owner for a while now. 

Only concern is if the legalized gambling thing doesn’t pass and the As move the team to LV.

1 The reporting on Cuban's role is weird. In most recent Windy podcast, Tim M reports Cuban will have ongoing and 'forevermore' control of the basketball side (what he has been told, of course), yet the reporters all accept that Adelsons will be the Governor, and agree that the Governor is the one with NBA control. What's the actual situation? There are a lot of possibilities (including that there are some misunderstandings or false claims in the mix).

The only one that makes all the claims legit is that Adelson will be NBA Governor, but will give Cuban actual in-house control over all the basketball part as long as he wants, which then creates as many questions as answers. How far would that control extend? Who makes the decisions on spending? What if Cuban screws it up? It somewhat implies  they have no real interest in the team (which is possible), but owning a $3.5B plaything that you just have on the side and don't control seems unlikely, even for someone who is ultra-rich.

2 I don't think "move the team to LV" is part of the backup equation. Adelsons can do a LV casino deal any time they wish, without Cuban/Mavs. They wouldn't get NBA approval to abandon a top 5 market because 'we wanted a casino and TX won't change the laws to satisfy our whims.' And I really think this is about owning a massive chunk of waterfront Town Lake land, one way or another, which of course doesn't relate to moving the team elsewhere.

That's just my view, of course. It remains to be seen how this will actually play out.

[Jason Terry]

1 The reporting on Cuban's role is weird. In most recent Windy podcast, Tim M reports Cuban will have ongoing and 'forevermore' control of the basketball side (what he has been told, of course), yet the reporters all accept that Adelsons will be the Governor, and agree that the Governor is the one with NBA control. What's the actual situation? There are a lot of possibilities (including that there are some misunderstandings or false claims in the mix).

The only one that makes all the claims legit is that Adelson will be NBA Governor, but will give Cuban actual in-house control over all the basketball part as long as he wants, which then creates as many questions as answers. How far would that control extend? Who makes the decisions on spending? What if Cuban screws it up? It somewhat implies  they have no real interest in the team (which is possible), but owning a $3.5B plaything that you just have on the side and don't control seems unlikely, even for someone who is ultra-rich.

2 I don't think "move the team to LV" is part of the backup equation. Adelsons can do a LV casino deal any time they wish, without Cuban/Mavs. They wouldn't get NBA approval to abandon a top 5 market because 'we wanted a casino and TX won't change the laws to satisfy our whims.' And I really think this is about owning a massive chunk of waterfront Town Lake land, one way or another, which of course doesn't relate to moving the team elsewhere.

That's just my view, of course. It remains to be seen how this will actually play out.

All good points as usual, F Gump

Saw the Timmy Mac “forevermore” as well. Cuban has explicitly stated his children won’t inherit his role. To me, this sounds like Cuban will have control until death and control would pass to A’s son. 

What is control? I think it extends up to the point of spending(so all non-spending basketball decisions). A’s could set the spending limits at whatever level they wish. If Cuban wanted to surpass those levels he could pay for it on his own? Or maybe both sides need to agree and they do it on a case by case or year by year basis

Why would the A’s give up control on the multi-billion plaything they just bought? Because they would be creating their own new multi-billion plaything: casino resorts in Texas. Both the A’s and Cuban would get the thing they want the most. Why would the A’s not just take both? They will get both, over time. This might have been the best option out there for them

[Mavs2021]

1 The reporting on Cuban's role is weird. In most recent Windy podcast, Tim M reports Cuban will have ongoing and 'forevermore' control of the basketball side (what he has been told, of course), yet the reporters all accept that Adelsons will be the Governor, and agree that the Governor is the one with NBA control. What's the actual situation? There are a lot of possibilities (including that there are some misunderstandings or false claims in the mix).

The only one that makes all the claims legit is that Adelson will be NBA Governor, but will give Cuban actual in-house control over all the basketball part as long as he wants, which then creates as many questions as answers. How far would that control extend? Who makes the decisions on spending? What if Cuban screws it up? It somewhat implies  they have no real interest in the team (which is possible), but owning a $3.5B plaything that you just have on the side and don't control seems unlikely, even for someone who is ultra-rich.

2 I don't think "move the team to LV" is part of the backup equation. Adelsons can do a LV casino deal any time they wish, without Cuban/Mavs. They wouldn't get NBA approval to abandon a top 5 market because 'we wanted a casino and TX won't change the laws to satisfy our whims.' And I really think this is about owning a massive chunk of waterfront Town Lake land, one way or another, which of course doesn't relate to moving the team elsewhere.

That's just my view, of course. It remains to be seen how this will actually play out.

Seems like just another Mavs classic. Sterling sells the Clippers to a Ball(m)er. Cuban sells the Mavs to a Sterling, that gives no f*** about basketball and only about some side money deal.

[ItsGoTime]

I doubt there is any unbreakable language written in the sales contract, so if the governing ownership doesn’t think the operating ownership is doing a good job with THEIR team, they will make the changes they deem necessary. Sounds like the ownership has a guy in the business already anyway. Sounds like a trusted advisor to me.

It’s all so simple. Cuban would rather sell the team than deal with Kidd’s wrath for firing him!

[Mavs2021]

I doubt there is any unbreakable language written in the sales contract, so if the governing ownership doesn’t think the operating ownership is doing a good job with THEIR team, they will make the changes they deem necessary. Sounds like the ownership has a guy in the business already anyway. Sounds like a trusted advisor to me.

It’s all so simple. Cuban would rather sell the team than deal with Kidd’s wrath for firing him!

More like Cuban has exhausted his cheapness of not upgrading the roster and an ancient arena. So rather than invest, he sells while maintaining control of the franchise, which is literally the worst outcome for us fans. On the other hand, if the new owners don´t give a f*** about money, Cuban has always been competitive with his "fluke into a ATG player then outspend your own stupidity"-approach.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The only one that makes all the claims legit is that Adelson will be NBA Governor, but will give Cuban actual in-house control over all the basketball part as long as he wants, which then creates as many questions as answers. How far would that control extend? Who makes the decisions on spending? What if Cuban screws it up? It somewhat implies  they have no real interest in the team (which is possible), but owning a $3.5B plaything that you just have on the side and don't control seems unlikely, even for someone who is ultra-rich.

First, let me say that outside of your original "maybe he's going broke" assumption, your thoughts on this topic have been fantastic and advanced everyone's thinking and knowledge of this tremendously.  I think the real estate angle using eminent domain to establish an anchor of further development makes a great deal of sense.  The camel is putting its nose under the tent.  Even your assumptions (possibly knowledge) about the location is also probably spot on.

A couple of further thoughts...It has been reported that Mrs. A. liquidated 10% of her LVS holdings for this.  so, 2 of 20?  She's reported to be worth $31 billion.  If you break it down to real world terms, I think it is easier to think about this (ultra-rich or not).  Imagine you are a retiree from some local company.  You've got $1mm in the bank and you've built up $2mm of company stock through options.  Mark Cuban is willing to sell you a majority interest in his company for $200,000.  He's willing (anxious) to continue running things.  The books don't look bad on a year to year basis.  The ROI for the last 15 years is good and you are also taking out all minority partners in the deal.

a. As you know from your profession, minority partners are often the managing partner of an enterprise.  Even if Cuban is nothing more than a useful fool from an operational standpoint, he probably brings local credibility (which is probably useful in a development based around Cuban's team that uses eminent domain). 

b. PE firms often leave the seller with an interest in the company as a way to align their interests.  I've seen a good number of instances (in my limited experience with a client selling to a PE firm) where the seller continues to run the operation.  I've got one recent case where the seller was allowed to participate in add-on transactions with the PE firm (using money from the original sale).  

I think if one is posting here one probably looks at Cuban from a mostly basketball standpoint.  In the context of this deal though, I think he's valued differently.  I also don't think the structure is all that unusual (outside of basketball).  The kicker, back to our retiree with $3mm, is that the $200,000 investment is a ticket to a really big payoff from real estate down the road (and front row seats at an occasional game).  Mr/Mrs Retiree has always loved real estate and would love to diversify some of their single-stock exposure into that at some point.  This deal provides an anchor (at mostly public expense) that you just can't buy outside of owning a team.  If you think back to the money that has been made on the land around AAC, I don't think a casino is necessary for this to go well for Mr/Mrs Retiree.  If it happens, all the better.

[Jason Terry]

First, let me say that outside of your original "maybe he's going broke" assumption, your thoughts on this topic have been fantastic and advanced everyone's thinking and knowledge of this tremendously.  I think the real estate angle using eminent domain to establish an anchor of further development makes a great deal of sense.  The camel is putting its nose under the tent.  Even your assumptions (possibly knowledge) about the location is also probably spot on.

A couple of further thoughts...It has been reported that Mrs. A. liquidated 10% of her LVS holdings for this.  so, 2 of 20?  She's reported to be worth $31 billion.  If you break it down to real world terms, I think it is easier to think about this (ultra-rich or not).  Imagine you are a retiree from some local company.  You've got $1mm in the bank and you've built up $2mm of company stock through options.  Mark Cuban is willing to sell you a majority interest in his company for $200,000.  He's willing (anxious) to continue running things.  The books don't look bad on a year to year basis.  The ROI for the last 15 years is good and you are also taking out all minority partners in the deal.

a. As you know from your profession, minority partners are often the managing partner of an enterprise.  Even if Cuban is nothing more than a useful fool from an operational standpoint, he probably brings local credibility (which is probably useful in a development based around Cuban's team that uses eminent domain). 

b. PE firms often leave the seller with an interest in the company as a way to align their interests.  I've seen a good number of instances (in my limited experience with a client selling to a PE firm) where the seller continues to run the operation.  I've got one recent case where the seller was allowed to participate in add-on transactions with the PE firm (using money from the original sale).  

I think if one is posting here one probably looks at Cuban from a mostly basketball standpoint.  In the context of this deal though, I think he's valued differently.  I also don't think the structure is all that unusual (outside of basketball).  The kicker, back to our retiree with $3mm, is that the $200,000 investment is a ticket to a really big payoff from real estate down the road (and front row seats at an occasional game).  Mr/Mrs Retiree has always loved real estate and would love to diversify some of their single-stock exposure into that at some point.  This deal provides an anchor (at mostly public expense) that you just can't buy outside of owning a team.  If you think back to the money that has been made on the land around AAC, I don't think a casino is necessary for this to go well for Mr/Mrs Retiree.  If it happens, all the better.

“Taking out all minority partners” this has been underreported. Cleans things up nicely

Also important that it’s not all of it that they are allowing Cuban to continue to be the face of everything, but also they NEED Cuban to be the face. They will need public support and local credibility. This arrangement helps both parties get what they want

[youzigizag]

Im not trying to be rude or confrontational...

But your post seems like a lot wordsmithing trying to suggest a Poker House exists but isnt legal but has 4 armed guards, guys with visible guns, protecting the place.   To say that this establishment(not the only one, I have delivered to one in Plano a few times also) isnt obviously been given the blessing of local law enforcement is reaching.   You can dance around it with words...but the place is allowed to exist BY LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE LAW SAYS.   You are submitting that governments are shady and lie.  I agree.   Im saying this place is being allowed to exist by law enforcers...which basically means its legal...regardless of what actual law says or case law or anything else.  This establishment is not some underground speak easy...its well known and there are billboards advertising it along I-35.   

I asked a security guard if there was some weird rule they are exploiting like players using cash to win tickets that are then taken somewhere else and cashed in for money....they said no...its like a normal casino...nothing weird going on to exploit rules.

To suggest this place isnt legal or blessed by the police is dancing and wordsmithing just to dance and wordsmith.

I would reassert that my explanation of the City of Dallas experimenting with gambling is more plausible.

I dont want to argue semantics about THE LAW vs LAW ENFORCERS.

No one wants to touch it.  I guess I win.  The win was unfulfilling.  Why try to win if its unfulfulling?  Got ya.

[SleepingHero]

1 The reporting on Cuban's...

That's just my view, of course. It remains to be seen how this will actually play out.

First....

It's insight and discussions like these that makes this bar none the best place to talk Mavs.

Kudos to y'all

[F Gump]

No one wants to touch it.  I guess I win.  The win was unfulfilling.  Why try to win if its unfulfulling?  Got ya.

I don't agree with you. If that means you win, congrats, you win.

BTW, when you decide to reply to my info and sincerely offered opinions, that were offered to try to help inform, by making it some sort of personal war using a rude, confrontational, antagonistic manner, I check out. I don't enjoy that sort of discussion, and rather than retaliate, I'll just talk elsewhere. There have been others in this forum in the past who expressed their desire to "win" conversations, and I just put them on ignore, because I don't want to play.

To everyone else, if you want to read what the Texas law says about gambling, here is the data to consider -
1  a synopsis of the laws  https://www.findlaw.com/state/texas-law/...-laws.html
2  the text of the laws (notice there has been no special carve out for a poker room)  https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/...ect-47-02/
3  a good article on the history, the rationale the TCH poker room has adopted, arguments on both sides, and comments on whether it is truly legal and where we might (or might not) be headed - https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-...gray-areas-

Based on all that, I think we're far from being able to assume that Dallas will become a casino town anytime soon. If ever. Casinos are a great money-maker for casino owners, but suck lots of money out of the citizenry as a whole.

[F Gump]

First, let me say that outside of your original "maybe he's going broke" assumption, your thoughts on this topic have been fantastic and advanced everyone's thinking and knowledge of this tremendously.  I think the real estate angle using eminent domain to establish an anchor of further development makes a great deal of sense.  The camel is putting its nose under the tent.  Even your assumptions (possibly knowledge) about the location is also probably spot on.

A couple of further thoughts...It has been reported that Mrs. A. liquidated 10% of her LVS holdings for this.  so, 2 of 20?  She's reported to be worth $31 billion.  If you break it down to real world terms, I think it is easier to think about this (ultra-rich or not).  Imagine you are a retiree from some local company.  You've got $1mm in the bank and you've built up $2mm of company stock through options.  Mark Cuban is willing to sell you a majority interest in his company for $200,000.  He's willing (anxious) to continue running things.  The books don't look bad on a year to year basis.  The ROI for the last 15 years is good and you are also taking out all minority partners in the deal.

a. As you know from your profession, minority partners are often the managing partner of an enterprise.  Even if Cuban is nothing more than a useful fool from an operational standpoint, he probably brings local credibility (which is probably useful in a development based around Cuban's team that uses eminent domain). 

b. PE firms often leave the seller with an interest in the company as a way to align their interests.  I've seen a good number of instances (in my limited experience with a client selling to a PE firm) where the seller continues to run the operation.  I've got one recent case where the seller was allowed to participate in add-on transactions with the PE firm (using money from the original sale).  

I think if one is posting here one probably looks at Cuban from a mostly basketball standpoint.  In the context of this deal though, I think he's valued differently.  I also don't think the structure is all that unusual (outside of basketball).  The kicker, back to our retiree with $3mm, is that the $200,000 investment is a ticket to a really big payoff from real estate down the road (and front row seats at an occasional game).  Mr/Mrs Retiree has always loved real estate and would love to diversify some of their single-stock exposure into that at some point.  This deal provides an anchor (at mostly public expense) that you just can't buy outside of owning a team.  If you think back to the money that has been made on the land around AAC, I don't think a casino is necessary for this to go well for Mr/Mrs Retiree.  If it happens, all the better.

Good stuff ^.

a. I would agree that an owner of the minority (or not the one with the plurality, if there's no majority owner) CAN BE the managing partner, but I wouldn't say that is common. Control by someone other than the biggest shareholder is used with some regularity when a family with big assets tries to set up structure to avoid inheritance taxes (but this could not be for that purpose, since Adelson is not an heir of Cuban). But way more often, the partner who has the majority share also is getting full control, able to outvote the other partners. GP/LP setups can work differently, but usually retain the idea of the biggest share having full control.
... BTW about the minority owners alongside Cuban previously, the fact they got out is fairly standard stuff for a minority partner when a team is sold. Unless the new buyer is wanting to buy 100%, his money goes first to buy out the smallest shareholder if they want out (or they can stay in, if they prefer), and up the ladder by amount owned, and continuing until all their purchase money is spent, with all getting paid the same per 1%. In this case, they all sold.

b. Yes, your idea is insightful that a partnership works best when the structure has a setup that aligns the interests for when future decisions are made. You worded it better than I have. That was my point about the spending -- if Cuban is going to have any discretion over team spending, then the fact that he owns a big chunk of the team means he has incentive not to be wasteful, as he is spending his money too. And a cash call hits him, too.

c. Yes, a new Arena will bring real estate opportunity no matter whether there's a casino or not. As to the casino, that could be as much a "Cuban Idea" as Adelson, because if you do a survey of sports owners and casinos, you will find that it's already a growing theme of "we want a new arena, and a casino district with it" even in states who don't allow casinos. The Mets is one of those teams. Cuban reportedly has been thinking of this for several years, in conjunction with his next arena which won't open until at least 2031. I think that when the first pro franchise moved to Vegas, it created financial fantasy dreams for owners elsewhere.

[hakeemfaan]

“Taking out all minority partners” this has been underreported. Cleans things up nicely

Also important that it’s not all of it that they are allowing Cuban to continue to be the face of everything, but also they NEED Cuban to be the face. They will need public support and local credibility. This arrangement helps both parties get what they want

I am assuming you are referring to Cuban’s business connections and using that for any development deal. If it is basketball related, anyone spending even $100 let alone $3billion will look at what has happened here over the past few years..scandals in the non basketball side, hiring a person that the then GM took personal objection to such that on the day of the draft someone who was not ready had to step in and make the pick, hiring a GM who had no experience, holding on to a coach who seems to have his own agenda,..etc. 

Unless they absolutely don’t care about the basketball side and willing to play around with 3b because they will make much much more with land development money on the side, I don’t see them giving Cuban a free run. The son just invested in a Israel basketball league. Even if the mom doesn’t care the younger ones might.

[youzigizag]

I don't agree with you. If that means you win, congrats, you win.

BTW, when you decide to reply to my info and sincerely offered opinions, that were offered to try to help inform, by making it some sort of personal war using a rude, confrontational, antagonistic manner, I check out. I don't enjoy that sort of discussion, and rather than retaliate, I'll just talk elsewhere. There have been others in this forum in the past who expressed their desire to "win" conversations, and I just put them on ignore, because I don't want to play.

To everyone else, if you want to read what the Texas law says about gambling, here is the data to consider -
1  a synopsis of the laws  https://www.findlaw.com/state/texas-law/...-laws.html
2  the text of the laws (notice there has been no special carve out for a poker room)  https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/...ect-47-02/
3  a good article on the history, the rationale the TCH poker room has adopted, arguments on both sides, and comments on whether it is truly legal and where we might (or might not) be headed - https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-...gray-areas-

Based on all that, I think we're far from being able to assume that Dallas will become a casino town anytime soon. If ever. Casinos are a great money-maker for casino owners, but suck lots of money out of the citizenry as a whole.

You dont agree that poker is allowed in Dallas right now?  By Law Enforcers?

Ok.
 
Its a weird derivative of gambling...its not gambling, right.   You call it brambling.   Everyone else calls it gambling.   But...to win an argument you moved the goal posts to brambling and gambling being separate things when they arent.

See how that works?   

Its a stupid dance.  Admit it.

[KillerLeft]

You dont agree that poker is allowed in Dallas right now?  By Law Enforcers?

Ok.
 
Its a weird derivative of gambling...its not gambling, right.   You call it brambling.   Everyone else calls it gambling.   But...to win an argument you moved the goal posts to brambling and gambling being separate things when they arent.

See how that works?   

Its a stupid dance.  Admit it.

We're venturing closer and closer to the behavior that got your other account banned. Is that the goal, here? Because if it is, I can help cut to the chase.

[youzigizag]

The poker houses have been allowed to exist because they make their money by charging the players an hourly membership fee.  So people aren’t going in and losing money to the house/casino in a game where they’re at a disadvantage.

Ok...so its the players losing their money to each other and not the house.

That makes sense.  And the house is making money on membership fees.  I knew there was member fees but its never been explained to me how the current weird Dallas poker business works.

The house isnt scraping you clean...just getting member fees.

Its still gambling...just the house isnt able to rape you...you rape yourself if you take it too far.

I dont think its Federal...I think its state by state...but I think most casinos are set up to make a guaranteed 25-30%.   Just easy easy money.

[MFFL]

Dallas officials already talking about Mavs moving/new arena

https://archive.is/RXxW9

[RGP1981]

I just had a really fun thought...

Wouldn't it be swell if the Mavericks and Jazz merged into 1 team based out of Utah? The new team will have to be based in Utah to get rid of Cuban, Nico, Cynt Marshall, etc. Besides, since it will be named the Utah Mavericks, this will allow the Jazz name to go to New Orleans. This would finally put a championship worthy roster around Luka. The extra team spot can go to one of the three destinations vying to be part of 32-team NBA; Las Vegas, Seattle or Vancouver.

Your Utah Mavericks!

G: Kyrie, Exum
G: Agbaji, Keyonte
F: Luka, Sensabaugh
F: Markkanen, Hendricks
C: Lively, Kessler

Coach: Will Hardy
GM: Dennis Lindsey
POBO: Danny Ainge
Owner: Ryan Smith

I think this roster and management team would rule the NBA for a decade.

Everyone currently on the two teams but not named above can go to Las Vegas, Seattle or Vancouver and Cuban can go control them if he wants to.

[KillerLeft]

I just had a really fun thought...

Wouldn't it be swell if the Mavericks and Jazz merged into 1 team based out of Utah? The new team will have to be based in Utah to get rid of Cuban, Nico, Cynt Marshall, etc. Besides, since it will be named the Utah Mavericks, this will allow the Jazz name to go to New Orleans. This would finally put a championship worthy roster around Luka. The extra team spot can go to one of the three destinations vying to be part of 32-team NBA; Las Vegas, Seattle or Vancouver.

Your Utah Mavericks!

G: Kyrie, Exum
G: Agbaji, Keyonte
F: Luka, Sensabaugh
F: Markkanen, Hendricks
C: Lively, Kessler

Coach: Will Hardy
GM: Dennis Lindsey
POBO: Danny Ainge
Owner: Ryan Smith

I think this roster and management team would rule the NBA for a decade.

Everyone currently on the two teams but not named above can go to Las Vegas, Seattle or Vancouver and Cuban can go control them if he wants to.

No, thanks. This is a forum for Dallas Mavericks fans.