Doncic Trade ?

[mvossman]

I mean, the article was about this team, this year. He also listed 6 defenders, with 1 of them being out (Maxi). Six plus the 2 in Kyrie and Luka makes an 8 man rotation. Add in 1 from the list of “others” to play when 1 of Luka or Kyrie are sitting and that’s a 9 man rotation.

It’s similar to the rotation I proposed not too long ago.

Luka/Kyrie/Exum as the guard rotation 

Green/DJJ as the SF rotation

GWill/Maxi/Lively as the bigs rotation 

That’s a big IF Maxi can still be a good defender. That’s the ideal to Iztok’s article to me. With Maxi out, we CAN fit someone else in the “others” group, they just can’t be played when both Kyrie and Luka are on the floor at the same time and we have to give up size in that instance.

Tonight, things looked good with Luka/Kyrie/Green/DJJ/Lively to close the game.

All that to say, it’s at the very least as much on coaching as it is on the FO. I’d say more on coaching since Iztok showed the numbers bare it out.

Of the 6 defenders he listed, one is oft injured (and currently injured) two are min or near min signings, one is a rookie and the other two are currently struggling.  The argument is to make up 3/5 of the lineup with that group.  I agree with Iztok assessment and I'm not saying Kidd couldn't do better, but he hasn't really been delt the best hand to make it happen.  

Lets do the math.  Lively is averaging 24 minutes a game, which is way more than most thought reasonable to start the season.  With his fouling issues, its hard to pencil him in for much more than that.  That means we have 24 minutes of non defender at the center position right now.  Luka and Kyrie have been averaging roughly 68 minutes between the two of them.  That is 92 minutes of non defender right there.  That leaves us with 4 minutes for Timmy, Hardy and Seth.  I know you are not a fan of Timmy, but he is one of our better players and its hard to argue that he should not be getting any minutes.

One thing that would change the math significantly is if we could call Holmes a defender.  I think the jury is still out on that, but early results are fairly positive.  He has the lowest defensive rating on the team (small sample alert) and according to the rim protection chart Iztok showed, he is our best rim protector right now (also probably small sample).  If we could fill the center minutes with "defenders" then that leaves 28 minutes for the Timmy, Hardy, Seth group, which is more reasonable.

I was following that premise in last nights game.  Categorizing Holmes as a defender, we played with at least 3 defenders 80+ percent of the game.  When we didn't it was because we were playing Powell or playing Luka/Kyrie/Timmy or playing Timmy/Hardy (I have no idea why Kidd would put those two on the court at the same time) and we tended to lose a little ground in those situations.  I would like to see this pattern more, with Holmes and DJJ in the second unit.

Its amazing to me that 4 of the 5 healthy defenders Iztok identified (and 5 of 6 if you include Holmes) were acquired this last offseason.  What a defensive wasteland this roster was after the Kyrie trade.

[DallasMaverick]

Of the 6 defenders he listed, one is oft injured (and currently injured) two are min or near min signings, one is a rookie and the other two are currently struggling.  The argument is to make up 3/5 of the lineup with that group.  I agree with Iztok assessment and I'm not saying Kidd couldn't do better, but he hasn't really been delt the best hand to make it happen.  

Lets do the math.  Lively is averaging 24 minutes a game, which is way more than most thought reasonable to start the season.  With his fouling issues, its hard to pencil him in for much more than that.  That means we have 24 minutes of non defender at the center position right now.  Luka and Kyrie have been averaging roughly 68 minutes between the two of them.  That is 92 minutes of non defender right there.  That leaves us with 4 minutes for Timmy, Hardy and Seth.  I know you are not a fan of Timmy, but he is one of our better players and its hard to argue that he should not be getting any minutes.

One thing that would change the math significantly is if we could call Holmes a defender.  I think the jury is still out on that, but early results are fairly positive.  He has the lowest defensive rating on the team (small sample alert) and according to the rim protection chart Iztok showed, he is our best rim protector right now (also probably small sample).  If we could fill the center minutes with "defenders" then that leaves 28 minutes for the Timmy, Hardy, Seth group, which is more reasonable.

I was following that premise in last nights game.  Categorizing Holmes as a defender, we played with at least 3 defenders 80+ percent of the game.  When we didn't it was because we were playing Powell or playing Luka/Kyrie/Timmy or playing Timmy/Hardy (I have no idea why Kidd would put those two on the court at the same time) and we tended to lose a little ground in those situations.  I would like to see this pattern more, with Holmes and DJJ in the second unit.

Its amazing to me that 4 of the 5 healthy defenders Iztok identified (and 5 of 6 if you include Holmes) were acquired this last offseason.  What a defensive wasteland this roster was after the Kyrie trade.

Seems like you’re talking only about DFS, right? Because Dinwiddie was a bit of a sieve.

And didn’t you think DFS had lost a step?

[ItsGoTime]

Pretty much the only exception to what I said was introducing Holmes as s possible defender yet it seems like you’re trying to thwart what I said.

[mvossman]

Pretty much the only exception to what I said was introducing Holmes as s possible defender yet it seems like you’re trying to thwart what I said.

I mean, I agree that we need to play 3 defenders as often as we can, and I agree that Kidd should do more of it, but I'm just saying I don't think the roster is setup to be able to do that very easily.  We are on the same page on what we think makes sense on the court, its just quibbling over who gets the most blame.  I can't remember if its in the article you sited or one of his earlier ones, but Izkok seems to put most of the blame regarding Mavs defense on the FO.  His argument being that an overwhelming percentage of the cap is devoted to offense only players and that teams can't contend with that model.

[mvossman]

Seems like you’re talking only about DFS, right? Because Dinwiddie was a bit of a sieve.

And didn’t you think DFS had lost a step?

He did lose a step and Din was a sieve.  Bullock also became completely useless.  I guess the point I was making is that we went into this offseason with maybe 2 players (one aging and oft injured) that could be considered plus defenders.  We were not going to be able to fix that completely with a single offseason with no cap and limited assets.

[ItsGoTime]

I mean, I agree that we need to play 3 defenders as often as we can, and I agree that Kidd should do more of it, but I'm just saying I don't think the roster is setup to be able to do that very easily.  We are on the same page on what we think makes sense on the court, its just quibbling over who gets the most blame.  I can't remember if its in the article you sited or one of his earlier ones, but Izkok seems to put most of the blame regarding Mavs defense on the FO.  His argument being that an overwhelming percentage of the cap is devoted to offense only players and that teams can't contend with that model.

He puts blame on it, but if the numbers are baring out that the team plays better with 3 defenders and we have 3 defenders to put out there, that’s on coaching. When Kyrie or Luka sit, that’s the time to put the offense only other players in. I think we could survive with Holmes being called a defensive player while Maxi is out and before it shows he has nothing left. This is generally to say, Exum gets a lot more minutes and THJ gets lots less.

[ItsGoTime]

We also won’t do well in the long run running an 8-9 man rotation, so we do need 1 more higher end defender. That part is not on Kidd, but playing the offense only players as much as he is, is on him. I’m not absolving the FO of blame, heck, I wanted that 1 more trade from them this offseason to get at least 1 more defender. But Kidd doesn’t need to take a back seat of blame to this point in the season.

[dirkfansince1998]

We also won’t do well in the long run running an 8-9 man rotation, so we do need 1 more higher end defender. That part is not on Kidd, but playing the offense only players as much as he is, is on him. I’m not absolving the FO of blame, heck, I wanted that 1 more trade from them this offseason to get at least 1 more defender. But Kidd doesn’t need to take a back seat of blame to this point in the season.

Interesting side note. Over the last three seasons (including the small sample size this season) the defensive specialist/point of attack defender of the bench role had great +/- numbers. Be it Ntilikina or Exum. And it's not because they are all time great talents. An upgraded version that can stay on the floor for 20+ would be a big addition.

[mvossman]

Interesting side note. Over the last three seasons (including the small sample size this season) the defensive specialist/point of attack defender of the bench role had great +/- numbers. Be it Ntilikina or Exum. And it's not because they are all time great talents. An upgraded version that can stay on the floor for 20+ would be a big addition.

Hell, just being able to shoot over 30% from 3 would be an improvement.  I had hopes that Green could be that upgrade but his defense has been disappointing.  Thybulle would have been that guy.

[mvossman]

He puts blame on it, but if the numbers are baring out that the team plays better with 3 defenders and we have 3 defenders to put out there, that’s on coaching. When Kyrie or Luka sit, that’s the time to put the offense only other players in. I think we could survive with Holmes being called a defensive player while Maxi is out and before it shows he has nothing left. This is generally to say, Exum gets a lot more minutes and THJ gets lots less.

Timmy in the low 20s like he was the other night probably makes sense.  I like Exum and want to see more of him, but that shot needs to get better or its going to be a problem.

[hakeemfaan]

Luka is once in a generation offensive talent. No matter how much he might annoy folks at time with some selfish stuff, he is something special. Whatever happens in a clutch game, you will not question where Luka was. This only folks like that are MJ and Kobe. Even Bron has had some disappearing acts before.

If a team can be a dynasty with Steph as the centerpiece, then many GMs will find a way to have a dynasty with Luka as the centerpiece.

[ThisIStheYear]

This is the most idiotic thread idea in the history of this board and all previous related boards.

[dirkfansince1998]

This is the most idiotic thread idea in the history of this board and all previous related boards.

In the late 00s (especially 07) a not so small part of the fanbase was willing to give up on Dirk. Sadly the old boards are gone but here are some highlights from LMF.


https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/trade-dirk-1863815

https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/dirk-...er-1863817

https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/who-w...or-1883837


To sum it up. Dirk is the biggest choker in league history. Some posters would rather have Carlos Boozer. Dirk isn't a real first option. You cannot win with a soft euro big.

[DallasMaverick]

In the late 00s (especially 07) a not so small part of the fanbase was willing to give up on Dirk. Sadly the old boards are gone but here are some highlights from LMF.


https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/trade-dirk-1863815

https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/dirk-...er-1863817

https://lmf.forumchitchat.com/post/who-w...or-1883837


To sum it up. Dirk is the biggest choker in league history. Some posters would rather have Carlos Boozer. Dirk isn't a real first option. You cannot win with a soft euro big.

Pure gold!!

...although the comments sound pretty similar to some I've seen here lately...

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

How’s this thread doing after last night?

[ThisIStheYear]

Luka is the only thing that even makes this team watchable. That’s how it’s doing.

[youzigizag]

After birth of Daughter...

Over under on Luka coming in weight wise next year?

Im saying 300lbs. What you say?

NO ONE WANTS TO TRADE THE DUDE. LET ME BE CLEAR.

[ItsGoTime]

The birth of your first child has the opposite effect on the above post. I look for Luka to mature and put things into perspective at this point.

[youzigizag]

The birth of your first child has the opposite effect on the above post. I look for Luka to mature and put things into perspective at this point.

Luka isnt some meddling star...he is a star and is paid like one...one of the biggest.

I get what you are saying...but not if you are one of the highest paid players.

Dont want to argue over Lukas contract and if its as high as the highest earners...you definitely get what I am saying.

If many many posters claim he is lazy on his conditioning...why would he get better now that he has a kid to raise?  Because worlds aligned and he sees that he needs to make 100 more million for his daughter now as opposed to the money he already made?   There are dads making 30,000 a year working their ass off....what makes you think a hooka pulling 200M player is going to try harder because he thinks his kids future is in danger?

You dont make sense.   If luka was making nothing...maybe you make sense.

[hakeemfaan]

Luka isnt some meddling star...he is a star and is paid like one...one of the biggest.

I get what you are saying...but not if you are one of the highest paid players.

Dont want to argue over Lukas contract and if its as high as the highest earners...you definitely get what I am saying.

If many many posters claim he is lazy on his conditioning...why would he get better now that he has a kid to raise?  Because worlds aligned and he sees that he needs to make 100 more million for his daughter now as opposed to the money he already made?   There are dads making 30,000 a year working their ass off....what makes you think a hooka pulling 200M player is going to try harder because he thinks his kids future is in danger?

You dont make sense.   If luka was making nothing...maybe you make sense.

It’s not just about money.  It’s about overall maturity. Less partying. Less drinking. Taking care of your health better because you want to be there for your kid later in life as well. Sure, as a pro, he should be doing all those things anyway, but that’s the same even if he didn’t have have much money.  There are people not making much who don’t take care of health related things they should. 

Also it’s not like Luka has to stay up and feed his kid.  He and his wife will have help that they need. 

Of course nothing might change but, money or not, there is more evidence of people changing for the better especially when it comes to health, once they become a parent.  One can hope it is the same here.