Im from france and ive followed the mavericks form a pretty long time and doncic since his real madrid years.Ive been lurking on this forum and the reddit one for years and ive finally decided to interact a bit .
Ive seen lately people here and on redit too saying that doncic is overrated as a top 5 and basically that the team made the best runs without him.
So logically i think people here want him either benched or traded because he is apparently the root of all the mavs problems.
What package will you accept for him?
Thank you for finally posting! We welcome all to post their thoughts. I do think you might be overthinking the criticisms on this board a bit, I don’t think anything typed around here is attempting to go as far as to suggest benching or trading, just that the warts are annoying to some and they hope for maturity coming sooner rather than later.
I think the more damning thing that holds this team back is what Iztok talks about in his recent article. When we have 3 or more defenders in the game, the numbers look good, when we have 3 or more offensive players, they look bad. That’s more about rotations than any 1 player.
OG and Siakam for Luka straight up.
Fixes all our problems.
(11-28-2023, 02:00 PM)youzigizag Wrote: [ -> ]OG and Siakam for Luka straight up.
Fixes all our problems.
Not enough.
Trading Luka would be insane.
It would also be insane to pretend he's perfect, but probably the MOST insane thing is jumping from reading mildly critical posts about a player to the assumption that everyone wants to trade him.
Luka has flaws, no doubt, and they create issues. Some are physical, some are attitude, some are focus, some are (lack of) maturity.
But he has super talent, that is almost impossible to replace. He's going nowhere anytime soon.
I'm sure the Mavs would trade him if he were to force his way out, and threaten to sign with another team as a free agent ... BUT ... that will definitely not happen for quite a few more years (if ever) because of the huge financial advantages to Luka of being with the same team. Before we ever get to that point, all the issues may be fixed, who knows.
(11-28-2023, 02:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Trading Luka would be insane.
It would also be insane to pretend he's perfect, but probably the MOST insane thing is jumping from reading mildly critical posts about a player to the assumption that everyone wants to trade him.
"Midly critical posts" when you say the team is better without him its not "midly critical ".Feel free to hate but a t least admit it.
(11-28-2023, 01:59 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for finally posting! We welcome all to post their thoughts. I do think you might be overthinking the criticisms on this board a bit, I don’t think anything typed around here is attempting to go as far as to suggest benching or trading, just that the warts are annoying to some and they hope for maturity coming sooner rather than later.
I think the more damning thing that holds this team back is what Iztok talks about in his recent article. When we have 3 or more defenders in the game, the numbers look good, when we have 3 or more offensive players, they look bad. That’s more about rotations than any 1 player.
Thanx for your welcome , i agree about the defense being the main problem.I just dont understand that 2 year ago the were capable of great defensive games.
They got a serie of 10 or 12 games keeping the opponents under 100 point .I thought that defense was jason kid main asset but it looks like he has given up.
For me this team should be inspired by the warriors from 2 years ago.Apart from wiggins they werent tall but i loved their team spirit.
This mavs team lack a bit of soul , it seems that just everyone is doing his own thing .
Luka has the deepest bag of offensive tricks than anyone ever...by a large margin, imo. But thats not even his best gift...its processing the game and being 3 steps ahead of everyone else mentally. I will go one further with the Pro-Luka HSO's...I think he and Jokic deserve to be highest paid players in the league based on recent production....but also because their game is not based on athleticism. Jokic and Luka could have a major injury that kills other players careers due to loss of athleticism...you dont have to worry about that with Jokic and Luka. Their game is being mentally superior to others on the court. There is less risk of a career ending injury to these two.
My only concern is if the league catches up and the past 4 years of Luka that were extremely productive get far less productive due to league evolving.
He's definitely the best offensive player ever. But...look what Jaden McDaniels and Anthony Edwards did to Luka and Kyrie at the end of that game with 20 seconds to win....neither Ky or Luka could get a shot off. Completely shut down. This is what we are going to be facing in playoffs in a few years. Highly athletic, long players that use speed to shut down mentally strong players. Its an athletic game...and being able to play defense is important.
Definitely would not trade him...but Im suspicious if the League catches up quickly...like in the next 3 years.
(11-28-2023, 02:35 PM)youzigizag Wrote: [ -> ]Luka has the deepest bag of offensive tricks than anyone ever...by a large margin, imo. But thats not even his best gift...its processing the game and being 3 steps ahead of everyone else mentally. I will go one further with the Pro-Luka HSO's...I think he and Jokic deserve to be highest paid players in the league based on recent production....but also because their game is not based on athleticism. Jokic and Luka could have a major injury that kills other players careers due to loss of athleticism...you dont have to worry about that with Jokic and Luka. Their game is being mentally superior to others on the court. There is less risk of a career ending injury to these two.
My only concern is if the league catches up and the past 4 years of Luka that were extremely productive get far less productive due to league evolving.
He's definitely the best offensive player ever. But...look what Jaden McDaniels and Anthony Edwards did to Luka and Kyrie at the end of that game with 20 seconds to win....neither Ky or Luka could get a shot off. Completely shut down. This is what we are going to be facing in playoffs in a few years. Highly athletic, long players that use speed to shut down mentally strong players. Its an athletic game...and being able to play defense is important.
Definitely would not trade him...but Im suspicious if the League catches up quickly...like in the next 3 years.
The attack is just too stagnent and iso ball only work if the other guards shoot well .Williams and other guards have been awfull on the 3 points line lately.
Its easy to defend kyrie and doncic if they are the only threat .
Jason kidd should wake up.
(11-28-2023, 02:42 PM)Charles dexter ward Wrote: [ -> ]The attack is just too stagnent and iso ball only work if the other guards shoot well .Williams and other guards have been awfull on the 3 points line lately.
Its easy to defend kyrie and doncic if they are the only threat .
Jason kidd should wake up.
And here in lies the problem.
Players like to be stimulated...a lot of them like to handle the rock and score every once in a while to feed that stimulation.
You suggesting Luka and Ky being the only threat makes sense...but most of the trade proposals on this very board say dont trade for guys that want to play offense because of Luka. And...who wants to come here if they cant scratch the stimuli itch? Something doesnt math.
Either get over heliocentric offense with no regards to Luka liking it or not...or dont. The balancing act is harder. The Mavs trying to find PHOENIX Bridges is hard. Im curious is Bridges ever wants to go back to that roll now? I would have no problem with him having the same attitude as Jerami Grant now..."I want to play on offense".
Luka's issues arent as big as they seem...but I do have an issue with trade proposals on here saying dont go after a player that likes offense...and I have an issue with Mavs being in a tough situation to find these niche players compared to others squads.
Do you have to play pick and roll to win now a days? Is that what analytics is saying? Seems like Mavs are having a tough time roster building wise focusing on the pick and roll.
I don't agree with the OP's view of Luka, but I would be open to trading him at this point as crazy as that sounds. Nobody in the world thinks he should be benched. I consider him the best offensive player in the world and possibly #2 behind MJ all time. That being said, his effort at times sucks and his defense isn't great. I do think he's improved on the defensive end, but he's not good enough there to impact the game like he could if he truly wanted to. His conditioning worries me greatly and why does he look lean early in the summer and then shows up to camp fat the last two years? That's crazy and unacceptable for a pro athlete.
I'm not sure he can win a championship because he's such a unique player and requires a specific team and game plan for him. I wouldn't give him away or even trade him for a great package. It would have to be the greatest package ever offered for a player. Otherwise you keep him and hope he cares enough at some point to take care of his body and play smarter. He takes way too many plays off and even games off. He also takes too many bad shots every game allowing teams to come back. I think more people would be open to trading him than will admit to it.
(11-28-2023, 02:51 PM)youzigizag Wrote: [ -> ]And here in lies the problem.
Players like to be stimulated...a lot of them like to handle the rock and score every once in a while to feed that stimulation.
You suggesting Luka and Ky being the only threat makes sense...but most of the trade proposals on this very board say dont trade for guys that want to play offense because of Luka. And...who wants to come here if they cant scratch the stimuli itch? Something doesnt math.
Either get over heliocentric offense with no regards to Luka liking it or not...or dont. The balancing act is harder. The Mavs trying to find PHOENIX Bridges is hard. Im curious is Bridges ever wants to go back to that roll now? I would have no problem with him having the same attitude as Jerami Grant now..."I want to play on offense".
Luka's issues arent as big as they seem...but I do have an issue with trade proposals on here saying dont go after a player that likes offense...and I have an issue with Mavs being in a tough situation to find these niche players compared to others squads.
Do you have to play pick and roll to win now a days? Is that what analytics is saying? Seems like Mavs are having a tough time roster building wise focusing on the pick and roll.
They need players who can create their own shots or who can be serviable without scoring: reaves ,caruso ,hachimura ,bogdanovic,.And of course a reliable center.
Capela maybe but i dont know if is washed or not.
(11-28-2023, 01:59 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for finally posting! We welcome all to post their thoughts. I do think you might be overthinking the criticisms on this board a bit, I don’t think anything typed around here is attempting to go as far as to suggest benching or trading, just that the warts are annoying to some and they hope for maturity coming sooner rather than later.
I think the more damning thing that holds this team back is what Iztok talks about in his recent article. When we have 3 or more defenders in the game, the numbers look good, when we have 3 or more offensive players, they look bad. That’s more about rotations than any 1 player.
Yep, he did the same analysis in our WCF playoff run with the exact same conclusion. Luka net rating with one defender was terrible, with two was ok, and with three was great. The formula to win with Luka has been out there for a while. Surround him with defensive players that don't kill you on offense.
I blame the FO more than Kidd for the rotation issue. After that WCF run our big signing is an offense only big and then mid season we trade our best defender away for an offense only guard. Until this last offseason this team has been actively getting small and worse defensively.
I agree with the general sentiment that sending out Timmy for a defensive PF makes the most sense from a roster construction viewpoint. I'm not sure that deal will be available at the TDL, but that chart really shows how much value a switch like that could be.
The minimum package would probably be SGA, Chet, Dort, and the entirety of the OKC treasure trove of picks. Literally every single one.
That is the bare minimum I would accept in any scenario for a Luka trade.
Of course I'd never trade Luka, even if he has faults. No player is without them. Luka's faults aren't that bad in the grand scheme of things.
The only scenario the Mavs ever trade Luka is if he forces his way out in a contract year. Which is already unlikely on the face of it.
(11-28-2023, 02:00 PM)youzigizag Wrote: [ -> ]OG and Siakam for Luka straight up.
Fixes all our problems.
That would be insane. Those two have already shown (along with FVV) that they need a superstar to get to contention level. You would be putting all of your eggs into the Kyrie basket. Not only is Kyrie not reliable, he is probably not good enough to be the superstar on a contending team, and it will get less likely every year. I don't think I have seen a post that undervalues Luka more.
(11-28-2023, 03:23 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]That would be insane. Those two have already shown (along with FVV) that they need a superstar to get to contention level. You would be putting all of your eggs into the Kyrie basket. Not only is Kyrie not reliable, he is probably not good enough to be the superstar on a contending team, and it will get less likely every year. I don't think I have seen a post that undervalues Luka more.
It was a half joke...but one that fixes our holes.
Front court is shored up...and we still have a superstar ball handler/facilitator.
Of course the value doesnt work...but the fit works.
(11-28-2023, 02:19 PM)Charles dexter ward Wrote: [ -> ]"Midly critical posts" when you say the team is better without him its not "midly critical ".Feel free to hate but a t least admit it.
Nobody said the team was better without him. They said that we sometimes go on runs without him, and that his on/off in the regular season is not as good as other elite players. The general gist of that thread was regarding his lack of motivation in the regular season. It was pointed out that its a completely different story in the playoffs when he has one of the highest on/offs. I think you are reading way too much into some of those comments.
(11-28-2023, 03:33 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody said the team was better without him. They said that we sometimes go on runs without him, and that his on/off in the regular season is not as good as other elite players. The general gist of that thread was regarding his lack of motivation in the regular season. It was pointed out that its a completely different story in the playoffs when he has one of the highest on/offs. I think you are reading way too much into some of those comments.
Maybe.
(11-28-2023, 03:28 PM)youzigizag Wrote: [ -> ]It was a half joke...but one that fixes our holes.
Front court is shored up...and we still have a superstar ball handler/facilitator.
Of course the value doesnt work...but the fit works.
Except the fit doesn't work without Luka. Kyrie is not prime Kawhi and we don't have anything close to FVV.