PRESEASON GAME 1: MIN vs. DAL

[surfpuckmd]

Any thoughts on the two way candidates?  I had to turn off in the second half.    Jelly is not shy with getting his shots up and has been productive.  Just not sure you add another small guard on a two way.  Greg Brown is probably who I am most interested in seeing.  Probably not going to put it together as a productive NBA player but he is at least intriguing to gamble on.

Either Wieskamp or Greg Brown would be fine as wings with some potential.  We all know they'll sign Jelly Brown though because he's confident and short and Mark likes having one player on the roster who doesn't make him feel short.

[Chicagojk]

I think both rookies will have plenty of ups and downs. I don’t think you can start both at this point. Maybe not one either. I think I can see Lively being the better option if he can attach himself to Luka. The big physical centers plus the elite will give him a lot of problems. But I think you can survive his minutes.

I want to get a good look at the rookies. One thing I really like is both are very competitive. Good signs. It is going to take time to get them to stop overthinking out there. Good teams will force Omax to beat them from outside. I think letting him get some confidence slowly. The issue is what do we do at backup PF as Omax grows into the role.

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McDaniels would be perfect for this team. Wings consisting of McDaniels, Green, Williams and Omax would be just what I want. Finding the McDaniels type is the tricky part.

[KillerLeft]

I think a roster with an MVP candidate and a 2nd-all NBA type player should win 45 games.  I understand there are plenty of flaws on the roster but our overall depth looks much better this season than it did last year.  Kidd appears to have had some input into roster-building this year as well so if it doesn't work, he can blame himself.  If I were Mark Cuban, I would set an expectation for Kidd that we need to win at least 45 games, make the playoffs and at least be competitive in the first round.  Otherwise, it's time to move on to a coach with a winning pedigree.

My goodness, I love this post.

[ItsGoTime]

I thought we looked much better out there when Green subbed in. We also probably looked our best with Hardy out there. Dare I say, the group on the court as a whole did look better when Powell was in. Wish we could have seen Holmes with the vet group as opposed to the mostly afterthought group. Here’s to Kidd not just putting lip service to experimenting and the C position really is up for grabs. DLive was ok, but 4 fouls before the half is not gonna cut it. Kyrie was mostly invisible. Luka, mehish. OMax was deer in headlights.

Hopefully it’s only up from here!

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I think a roster with an MVP candidate and a 2nd-all NBA type player should win 45 games.  I understand there are plenty of flaws on the roster but our overall depth looks much better this season than it did last year.  Kidd appears to have had some input into roster-building this year as well so if it doesn't work, he can blame himself.  If I were Mark Cuban, I would set an expectation for Kidd that we need to win at least 45 games, make the playoffs and at least be competitive in the first round.  Otherwise, it's time to move on to a coach with a winning pedigree.

I agree about Kidd. I just don't trust him making the necessary adjustments when the game is on the line. Sure they made the WCF two years ago as everything clicked and they had Brunson who was a huge part of it. But since then, he has had some slippage as a HC.

[omahen]

I think both rookies will have plenty of ups and downs.  I don’t think you can start both at this point.  

I just don't understand all these "starting rookies" talk from Mavs. What is an issue with bringing them along slowly? It has only been one game (and summer league), but it doesn't look any of them is ready to be a starter. If they are 15-20 mpg players at this point, doesn't it make way more sense to bring them in slowly from the bench. Unless winning is not the main point of this season. But then I don't understand why guys like Curry would have advantage over Hardy.

[omahen]

Not a lot of fun to be a big on the Mavs.

Powell 4 FGA
Lively 2 FGA
Kleber 3 FGA
Holmes 1 FGA

Unwilling or unable to involve bigs on offense. Guards just looking for their own shot.

I am not sure why would something else be expected in this regard. The only move Powell and Lively (at this point) have is a dunk from PnR. Something defense can (and did) take away by rather letting some 3 point shots. The only move Kleber has is a wiiiiiiiiiiide open shot. The only one from this group that might have something more in his arsenal is Holmes, but he only played garbage minutes with guys who were only looking for their own shot (Hardy, Walker).

Still, I am not concerned about the offense. Sure, offense yesterday looked like a group of guys who met at the gym for the first time and play some basketball. But I would assume this to improve. Shots didn't went in (26 % from three in the first half compared to 45 % from Minny). Mavs still lack a lot regarding the talent. Williams doesn't look to be able to do anything but shoot threes. Kyrie didn't seem to be very interested in the game. But as I said, I don't think offense will be a problem (never was in "Luka era"). 

My main concern is on the defensive side. I didn't see anything that would make me think Mavs will show an upgrade in this area. Lively tries, but is extremely raw and gets pushed around. Noone really looked like a defensive force that would be able to elevate the defense. I actually thought Powell played by far best team defense, he is just limited in one on ones against bigs like KAT. Kyrie presents a new challenge as you can't switch him and Mavs didn't show any plan how they will be addresing that. 

I hope the plan for this game was to just let guys play an easy game to get their legs ready. Without any actions or schemes. Minny looked way more motivated.

[Chicagojk]

This was probably my highlight yesterday. This was back to back plays. Would like to see things built ifff this action.

https://x.com/iztok_franko/status/171027...05496?s=46&t=iwQP5yZoJF3Ulzfb9MH7Cg

[surfpuckmd]

I just don't understand all these "starting rookies" talk from Mavs. What is an issue with bringing them along slowly? It has only been one game (and summer league), but it doesn't look any of them is ready to be a starter. If they are 15-20 mpg players at this point, doesn't it make way more sense to bring them in slowly from the bench. Unless winning is not the main point of this season. But then I don't understand why guys like Curry would have advantage over Hardy.

I think Jason Kidd was a brilliant basketball player who had tremendous recognition and understanding on the court.  Those same traits haven't carried over to coaching.  He seems to make decisions based upon intuition and that often doesn't go well.  My thesis is that he pays less attention to advanced stat data then most other coaches.  I also suspect he watches less film personally than most other coaches.  I suspect he also listens less to his assistant coaches as he is, after all, a basketball genius.

This leads to weird decisions about who receives minutes and who doesn't. 

I think he saw some things in practice that he liked from OMax and Lively and made quick decisions on their readiness.  Based on what we saw in the first game, neither looks close to contributing positively.

We struggled at the end of last season and we added several veteran rotation players.  Preseason should be an opportunity for us to figure out how to incorporate Grant Williams, DJJ, Holmes and Exum into the rotation.  Kyrie and Luka need to figure out how to play offense together.  Instead, Kidd has decided to make preseason a deranged experiment into incorporating two rookies int the starting lineup.  We don't really know how the new veterans fit with Luka and Kyrie because only Grant Williams played with them.  Even that is limited because when he played, there were two rookies on the court who were not capable offensive players.  We learned nothing about the starting lineup from this game other that our rookies are not capable of starting.  Kidd should have known that from practice. 

When Carlisle left, every available coach in the league would have taken this job.  The opportunity to coach Luka in his prime would have been that great.  Instead, Mark Cuban chose Kidd.  Cuban has some positive qualities as an owner but like Kidd, he seems to make impulsive choices based upon intuition.  Kidd was an impulse, emotional choice.  Kidd is a big problem for us.  Unfortunately, so is our owner.

[Chicagojk]

I think Jason Kidd was a brilliant basketball player who had tremendous recognition and understanding on the court.  Those same traits haven't carried over to coaching.  He seems to make decisions based upon intuition and that often doesn't go well.  My thesis is that he pays less attention to advanced stat data then most other coaches.  I also suspect he watches less film personally than most other coaches.  I suspect he also listens less to his assistant coaches as he is, after all, a basketball genius.

This leads to weird decisions about who receives minutes and who doesn't. 

I think he saw some things in practice that he liked from OMax and Lively and made quick decisions on their readiness.  Based on what we saw in the first game, neither looks close to contribute positively.

We struggled at the end of last season and we added a few new rotation players.  Preseason should be an opportunity for us to figure out how to incorporate Grant Williams, DJJ, Holmes and Exum into the rotation.  Kyrie and Luka need to figure out how to play offense together.  Instead, Kidd has decided to make preseason a deranged experiment into incorporating two rookies int the starting lineup.  We don't really know how the new guys fit with Luka  and Kyrie because only Grant Williams played with them.  Even that is limited because when he played, there were two rookies on the court who were not capable offensive players.  We learned nothing about the starting lineup from this game other that our rookies are not capable of starting.  Kidd should have known that from practice. 

When Carlisle left, every available coach in the league would have taken this job.  The opportunity to coach Luka in his prime would have been that great.  Instead, Mark Cuban chose Kidd.  Cuban has some positive qualities as an owner but like Kidd, he seems to make impulsive choices based upon intuition.  Kidd was an impulse, emotional choice.  Kidd is a big problem for us.  Unfortunately, so is our owner.

What are your thoughts of trying to play Luka and Kyrie together as much as possible?   It still feels like they are playing your turn/my turn when they play together.   What about force feeding them minutes together so they can develop stronger chemistry?   It won't happen, but if the Mavs plan that they will be your building blocks, lets give them as much time together as possible to learn to play off each other.

[omahen]

Cuban has some positive qualities as an owner but like Kidd, he seems to make impulsive choices based upon intuition.  Kidd was an impulse, emotional choice.  

I think this sentence is great. We can see this impulsive choices all over roster construction, imho. For example our two rookies. Both were slotted much lower at the start of the draft process. But, Lively had a great workout and Omax had a great combine. Not saying they are bad picks, just saying those things imho contributed a lot to how Mavs valued them. Similar patterns can be seen in a lot of examples of trading players - Mavs almost always buy high and sell low (KP, Wright,...). They give contract to Delon Wright only to pay to trade him away 9 months later. Wright remains respected role player in the league (Mavs problem was they wanted him to be more than that) and has value on similar deal Mavs gave him. JRich was a similar case. McGee is the latest one - one summer you give the guy a 3 year deal because he is supposed to be a great vet with I don't know how many rings, next summer it is absolutely necessary to dump him whatever it takes. I remember many cases of end of bench guys who got nice deals because they had a "lucky" streak of good minutes (Chriss, Burke,...).

[surfpuckmd]

I think this sentence is great. We can see this impulsive choices all over roster construction, imho. For example our two rookies. Both were slotted much lower at the start of the draft process. But, Lively had a great workout and Omax had a great combine. Not saying they are bad picks, just saying those things imho contributed a lot to how Mavs valued them. Similar patterns can be seen in a lot of examples of trading players - Mavs almost always buy high and sell low (KP, Wright,...). They give contract to Delon Wright only to pay to trade him away 9 months later. Wright remains respected role player in the league (Mavs problem was they wanted him to be more than that) and has value on similar deal Mavs gave him. JRich was a similar case. McGee is the latest one - one summer you give the guy a 3 year deal because he is supposed to be a great vet with I don't know how many rings, next summer it is absolutely necessary to dump him whatever it takes. I remember many cases of end of bench guys who got nice deals because they had a "lucky" streak of good minutes (Chriss, Burke,...).

The Mavericks tend to turn on players and break up poorly.  It's been going on for the last 15 years or so.  Players like Monta Ellis and Chandler Parsons signed with us as free agents, played well for us then the Mavericks basically told them "good riddance" when they left.  We have a tendency to think that a few particular players are the reason we fail every year.  We then spend assets to get rid of them.  Then we realize that we're not really any better off.  This past off-season it was obviously Christian Wood and JaVale McGee who were the reasons we didn't make the playoffs.  So, they're gone even though the McGee stretch-waive was an impulsive, idiotic maneuver.   Somehow, Tim Hardaway Jr also was announced as a problem for us.  I believe he was one of our better players last season and now it's fairly awkward for him to be back knowing they wanted him gone.   Also, I agree about Delon wright.  Outstanding role player everywhere he's been except for Dallas.  It's insane that we attached assets to jettison him away.  

Also, imagine having a center who defends the rim, rebounds and hits 3-pointers. We had one named Porzingis but we traded him for a bunch of nothing.

I like the Grant Williams acquisition but I think this even applies to him.  I believe we could have simply signed him outright rather than trading a 2030 pick swap to obtain him.  I believe Boston acquired only a couple of 2nd rounders in the trade.  I am skeptical that they would have matched his contract had we signed him as a free agent.  The Mavericks became certain that he was the perfect player to pair with Kyrie and Luka though.  The Mavs fell in love with Grant Williams and paid a lot to obtain him when they could have had him for free.  

I do think the decision-making was generally somewhat better this past off-season.  I think Dennis Lindsay gives us a competent, proven adult in the organizations inner circle.  I disagree with your assessment of the draft as I think both players were drafted in the appropriate range and fit our current roster perfectly.   They made some nice moves in free agency-  I especially like the Dante Exum and DJJ signings.   The JaVale stretch waive was idiotic but that's just Mark Cuban flexing.  Overall, I do think we had a good summer.   We'll see what Kidd can do with a more athletic roster.

[surfpuckmd]

What are your thoughts of trying to play Luka and Kyrie together as much as possible?   It still feels like they are playing your turn/my turn when they play together.   What about force feeding them minutes together so they can develop stronger chemistry?   It won't happen, but if the Mavs plan that they will be your building blocks, lets give them as much time together as possible to learn to play off each other.

I believe you posted a suggestion that the Mavericks always have two of Luka, Kyrie and Jaden Hardy on the floor.  I agree with that.  I think it would nicely replicate what we had with Luka, Brunson and Dinwiddie-  only the new trio is even quicker and more talented.  I think either Luka or Kyrie should be on the floor at all times.  They'll necessarily play some together and hopefully Luka can adjust a little to playing with another superstar.  He's never played with anyone as talented as Kyrie so it will be an adjustment.  When one of our stars is out, I think Exum would be the next guy up.  

I think Josh Green should be the starting small forward and I would keep him in when Kyrie is playing and Luka is sitting.  I would play THJ when Luka is playing and Kyrie is not.  

I think it may take 44 wins to make the top 8 in the West this year.  I think all lineup decisions should be based on winning every game possible.

[mvossman]

I think Jason Kidd was a brilliant basketball player who had tremendous recognition and understanding on the court.  Those same traits haven't carried over to coaching.  He seems to make decisions based upon intuition and that often doesn't go well.  My thesis is that he pays less attention to advanced stat data then most other coaches.  I also suspect he watches less film personally than most other coaches.  I suspect he also listens less to his assistant coaches as he is, after all, a basketball genius.

This leads to weird decisions about who receives minutes and who doesn't. 

I think he saw some things in practice that he liked from OMax and Lively and made quick decisions on their readiness.  Based on what we saw in the first game, neither looks close to contributing positively.

We struggled at the end of last season and we added several veteran rotation players.  Preseason should be an opportunity for us to figure out how to incorporate Grant Williams, DJJ, Holmes and Exum into the rotation.  Kyrie and Luka need to figure out how to play offense together.  Instead, Kidd has decided to make preseason a deranged experiment into incorporating two rookies int the starting lineup.  We don't really know how the new veterans fit with Luka and Kyrie because only Grant Williams played with them.  Even that is limited because when he played, there were two rookies on the court who were not capable offensive players.  We learned nothing about the starting lineup from this game other that our rookies are not capable of starting.  Kidd should have known that from practice. 

When Carlisle left, every available coach in the league would have taken this job.  The opportunity to coach Luka in his prime would have been that great.  Instead, Mark Cuban chose Kidd.  Cuban has some positive qualities as an owner but like Kidd, he seems to make impulsive choices based upon intuition.  Kidd was an impulse, emotional choice.  Kidd is a big problem for us.  Unfortunately, so is our owner.

I think Cuban had a reason for hiring both Kidd and Nico.  I think he was still in full plan powder mode, and he thought those guys gave him the best chance to recruit a big free agent.  I guess it eventually worked with Kyrie (although we would have been much better off just holding on to Brunson).  My only hope with this org is that Lindsey seems to have had a very positive impact on the overall process.  The next step is replacing Kidd as soon as possible.

[Mavs2021]

I think this sentence is great. We can see this impulsive choices all over roster construction, imho. For example our two rookies. Both were slotted much lower at the start of the draft process. But, Lively had a great workout and Omax had a great combine. Not saying they are bad picks, just saying those things imho contributed a lot to how Mavs valued them. Similar patterns can be seen in a lot of examples of trading players - Mavs almost always buy high and sell low (KP, Wright,...). They give contract to Delon Wright only to pay to trade him away 9 months later. Wright remains respected role player in the league (Mavs problem was they wanted him to be more than that) and has value on similar deal Mavs gave him. JRich was a similar case. McGee is the latest one - one summer you give the guy a 3 year deal because he is supposed to be a great vet with I don't know how many rings, next summer it is absolutely necessary to dump him whatever it takes. I remember many cases of end of bench guys who got nice deals because they had a "lucky" streak of good minutes (Chriss, Burke,...).

Very well said. It´s the sign of a badly run franchise/team. Draft picks should not primarily be based on workouts/combine. That should probably make up 10-15% of the decision-making process and mainly on the soft skills, not the basketball skills. To learn more about their character and personalities.
The same with the old " he has to win 4 of the next 5 games or he is gone"- coaching ultimatum. You either believe in a coach or not. And the same with trade player evaluation.

[ballsrchr]

I believe you posted a suggestion that the Mavericks always have two of Luka, Kyrie and Jaden Hardy on the floor.  I agree with that.  I think it would nicely replicate what we had with Luka, Brunson and Dinwiddie-  only the new trio is even quicker and more talented.  I think either Luka or Kyrie should be on the floor at all times.  They'll necessarily play some together and hopefully Luka can adjust a little to playing with another superstar.  He's never played with anyone as talented as Kyrie so it will be an adjustment.  When one of our stars is out, I think Exum would be the next guy up.  

I think Josh Green should be the starting small forward and I would keep him in when Kyrie is playing and Luka is sitting.  I would play THJ when Luka is playing and Kyrie is not.  

I think it may take 44 wins to make the top 8 in the West this year.  I think all lineup decisions should be based on winning every game possible.

I agree almost completely with this statement.  Maybe show better off the ball play...

[Scott41theMavs]

Very well said. It´s the sign of a badly run franchise/team. Draft picks should not primarily be based on workouts/combine. That should probably make up 10-15% of the decision-making process and mainly on the soft skills, not the basketball skills. To learn more about their character and personalities.
The same with the old " he has to win 4 of the next 5 games or he is gone"- coaching ultimatum. You either believe in a coach or not. And the same with trade player evaluation.

I simply disagree that that's what they did with these picks. Dereck's learning curve over recent years and OMax's improvement over the course of his college career indicate that the workout/combine were cherries on top, not the solitary reasons to pick them.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I agree almost completely with this statement.  Maybe show better off the ball play...

This.

My analogy is a band with 2 great guitar players.  They can seamlessly switch back and forth between rhythm and lead; the listener doesn't hear the difference.

To not use Kyrie's handles (probably the greatest of all-time) is criminal.  I call Luka a Point Small Forward because when he's not at the point he be a Lebron-level SF.  Luka HAS to learn to play off the ball.  

Two comps that I can think of as a model for Luka/Kyrie is Joker/Murray and Giannis/Dame.  Luka has to more model his game after more after Joker/Giannis than Steve Nash.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I don’t know that I got any new or hot takes from watching that game.  My antenna got a little more focused when I saw THJ was out.  He was really engaged on the bench though, so if something was up, it wasn’t apparent in his body language.

I’ll stand by my statement that there is no way they start two rookies to begin the regular season.  The game isn’t close to slowing down for either of them yet.  If they decide to start one, it will be a product both of that player’s readiness and what they look like in comparison to the alternative.  I think the team hurts itself more starting OMax over Green than starting Lively over Powell.  Yeah, Powell has a more veteran understanding of what to do and where to be.  But, he’ll never be able to intimidate and protect the paint like Lively can.  Fouls will be the limiting factor for Lively.  I’m also watching for him to develop stronger hands and grab rebounds with authority when the game slows down.  Right now he’s not the surest of rebounders.

If you start a rookie, the logical lineup is Lively, Williams, Green, Kyrie, Luka.  The first subs out are Kyrie, Green and Lively so that Green is available to run with Kyrie when both return to start the second/fourth when Luka sits.  Killer bemoaned the idea that Green could get lost in the crowded rotation in the second unit for minutes at the 2 and 3 next to one of our stars when the other sits.  If Maxi is going to back up GWill, the same might happen to OMax.  A Maxi/Powell/Luka lineup means OMax is a 3 and competing with THJ for those minutes while Seth, Hardy and Exum compete for the backup two minutes next to Luka or Kyrie.  The issue gets solved pretty quickly if THJ gets shipped out before the TDL.  I heard one commentator say OMax looks like he’s playing on skates.  There is a bit of frenetic energy and herky-jerky movement to his game anyway.  But it was more pronounced in what we saw Thursday.  It will take a while for the game to slow down for these guys.

[ItsGoTime]

The issue gets solved pretty quickly if THJ gets shipped out before the TDL.