TRADE: Mavs trade 10+Bertans to OKC for Dereck Lively II

[SleepingHero]

Have no idea what you are talking about with the kick out. I've seen veteran NBA bigs do exactly that plenty of times. Criticizing a 19 year old in college for it is a bit odd. The only part of his game that is a true project is his offense. Nothing project like about his defense IMO, even though like any big prospect no matter how good there will be growing pains, mainly with foul trouble most likely. This might be the best scouting breakdown of his defensive skillset. Also interesting to note he had a calf injury to start the season, which obviously limited him athletically, which is partly why he had a very slow start to the season.

(87) DERECK LIVELY II SCOUTING REPORT | 2023 NBA Draft | Dallas Mavericks | Duke Blue Devils - YouTube

Specifically regarding the kick-out, I was questioning whether or not it was the best and most reproduceable play he could have made. On review, you could see he had the free dunk if he looked to score. He didn't. Instead he kicked it out and traded a 99% chance at 2 points for a ~35% chance at 3. Again, I wasn't saying it was a bad play but rather it wasn't the best play he could have made. Which points to his instincts on the offensive side or lackthereof and further adds evidence to how timid he is of an offensive player. 3 FGA attempts a game for a supposed top prospect is abnormally low. 

His rim defense is good and I said as such. But you can see him lose footwork and be off-balance when tasked to guard PnRs/perimeter sets. That's what NBA teams will be doing to get him off the floor. He also bites on fakes to try and get the block. That's going to lead to foul trouble and growing pains like you said. Both of those points are the reason I'm calling him a project. 

I didn't know about that injury. Definitely further provides prospective. To further clarify my position, I initially wrote the guy off as soon as the pick was made and called bloody murder at the FO for making that pick vs. taking a guy like Whitmore. I've since walked back that stance and opted to give him some time to grow although I'm pessimistic. I hope Lively lives up to his comps. It'd be better for everyone if he can rise to the occasion. Lets hope he can.

[DallasMaverick]

Specifically regarding the kick-out, I was questioning whether or not it was the best and most reproduceable play he could have made. On review, you could see he had the free dunk if he looked to score. He didn't. Instead he kicked it out and traded a 99% chance at 2 points for a ~35% chance at 3. Again, I wasn't saying it was a bad play but rather it wasn't the best play he could have made. Which points to his instincts on the offensive side or lackthereof and further adds evidence to how timid he is of an offensive player. 3 FGA attempts a game for a supposed top prospect is abnormally low. 

His rim defense is good and I said as such. But you can see him lose footwork and be off-balance when tasked to guard PnRs/perimeter sets. That's what NBA teams will be doing to get him off the floor. He also bites on fakes to try and get the block. That's going to lead to foul trouble and growing pains like you said. Both of those points are the reason I'm calling him a project. 

I didn't know about that injury. Definitely further provides prospective. To further clarify my position, I initially wrote the guy off as soon as the pick was made and called bloody murder at the FO for making that pick vs. taking a guy like Whitmore. I've since walked back that stance and opted to give him some time to grow although I'm pessimistic. I hope Lively lives up to his comps. It'd be better for everyone if he can rise to the occasion. Lets hope he can.

I think you're being really generous with him there, SH.  I appreciate how you're willing to give him a chance before you cut or trade him.

Future players will see your forbearance, and want to come perform for the Mavericks.

I'd go ahead and maybe ask Mark for a raise, right now.

[SleepingHero]

I think you're being really generous with him there, SH.  I appreciate how you're willing to give him a chance before you cut or trade him.

Future players will see your forbearance, and want to come perform for the Mavericks.

I'd go ahead and maybe ask Mark for a raise, right now.

I appreciate it brochacho. 

Already forwarded this post to Cubes for my yearly raise.

[SleepingHero]

https://twitter.com/BrandonRahbar/status...46849?s=20

Sam Presti on trading up to 10: “Our philosophy is always try to get as high as you can. Nico and I had been talking about it for a week. We touched base on it every day. We accomplished one of our goals, which was moving up to get Cason.”

[Jym]

https://twitter.com/BrandonRahbar/status...46849?s=20

Exactly how you have to do it. Build up that conversation for days/weeks before
In the past I felt like they really did just try to throw together deals in 3 minutes on the spot with no prior planning. That's just not going to work

[Dundalis]

Specifically regarding the kick-out, I was questioning whether or not it was the best and most reproduceable play he could have made. On review, you could see he had the free dunk if he looked to score. He didn't. Instead he kicked it out and traded a 99% chance at 2 points for a ~35% chance at 3. Again, I wasn't saying it was a bad play but rather it wasn't the best play he could have made. Which points to his instincts on the offensive side or lackthereof and further adds evidence to how timid he is of an offensive player. 3 FGA attempts a game for a supposed top prospect is abnormally low. 

His rim defense is good and I said as such. But you can see him lose footwork and be off-balance when tasked to guard PnRs/perimeter sets. That's what NBA teams will be doing to get him off the floor. He also bites on fakes to try and get the block. That's going to lead to foul trouble and growing pains like you said. Both of those points are the reason I'm calling him a project. 

I didn't know about that injury. Definitely further provides prospective. To further clarify my position, I initially wrote the guy off as soon as the pick was made and called bloody murder at the FO for making that pick vs. taking a guy like Whitmore. I've since walked back that stance and opted to give him some time to grow although I'm pessimistic. I hope Lively lives up to his comps. It'd be better for everyone if he can rise to the occasion. Lets hope he can.

Fair enough, I've seen Powell give up a free dunk for a kick out uncountable times. I'm not saying Powell is a great offensive player with great instincts, more saying I couldn't care less if he's no better than Powell offensively, since his value is on the other end. Just wondering why these issues, which we see from NBA vets that are playing lots of minutes makes the kid a project. To me a project is someone that can't play in the NBA for 2-3 years without looking like ass, someone that can play and have some real impact, but with a lot of rough spots is just a typical NBA rookie. But we prob just view the term different.

[SleepingHero]

Pretty impactful 4 pt game

https://youtu.be/U1XvCldUqAw

I actually watched this game because I was/am such a non-believer in Lively, I want to give him a fair shot. 

First, wow. Lively's defensive impact was immense. In fact Oral Roberts literally didn't score the first 8 minutes with Lively on the court, and Lively was the main cause 6 out of 13 total possessions. He picked up guards, moved his feet, rebounded, was active all over the court. He made only 2 missteps on defense by my count and both of which amounted to just an open guy for half a second that Oral Roberts couldn't really take advantage of. 

Oral Roberts scored as soon as Lively went to the bench, and they scored directly off of a mistake caused by Lively's sub. Why did the coach remove Lively? Was he gassed? Those were the questions that ran through my mind because it made zero sense to remove the guy who in 8 minutes had 2 points, 5 rebounds, and 2 blocks. 

Lively came in 3 mins later after Roberts put up 8 points and he continued his dominance. He had a possession where he blitzes the PnR and then somehow sprinted back below the basket to then block a layup attempt. After 14 mins in the game, he had 2 points, 8 rebounds 1 assist, and 3 blocks (but I've counted 4 at this point). After another couple of minutes of stifling defense, he got subbed out again! Why??? His replacement plays I kid you not 1 minute and 30 seconds before he makes a catastrophic defensive mistake which leads to an open bucket and guess what? Lively comes back in. 

The half then comes to a close and Lively has 4 points, 8 rebounds, 5 blocks and an assist in ~15 minutes of play. He was only scored on by my count twice, both of which were long threes where he contested super well. My mouth is agape at this defensive performance at this point.

2nd half is just more of the same. His defensive impact was so apparent all the commentators were praising him and actively pointing how the difference when he went off the court. Speaking of, as soon as he got subbed out for 6 minutes, Oral Roberts goes on an 11-0 run and gain momentum. Lively comes back in and order was restored. 

The good:

• His defense. It's almost understated how good it was. If this game was representative of what he did the entire year, this guy is prime Gobert ceiling type of defense. 
  
• He is very mobile. Highlights don't really do it justice. He can move his feet. He knows where to be. He's active as all hell
  
• He can box out very well when he tries. 
  
• His rim protection was just O.M.G.
  

The bad:

• Notice how in all of the "good" bullet points, its about his defense? Yeah because he actually has no offensive game. Zero. He never looked to score. I'd describe it almost Josh Green rookie year level of aversion at looking to score. It also didn't help that Duke ran practically zero plays for him. He was planted in the dunkers spot if he wasn't being used as a screener and he just waited for a pass off a drive. 58/78 of his shot attempts of the year were dunks. It was apparent thats how Duke used him.
  
• His screens left a little to be desired. He wasn't a bad screen setter, but he didn't make as much contact as I'd like to have hoped. 
  
• Did I mention he has no touch around the basket? 
  

Anyways, it's just one game. But I see why the Pro-Lively camp are excited about him. He is a good defender. On a team that features Luka Doncic, his lack of offensive game shouldn't be that much of a detriment. Still, there were little signs that he's a raw dude in terms of just balance and footwork that Oral Roberts players weren't good enough to take advantage of. Does that mean he's automatically going to get abused? No. But something to keep in mind.

I definitely see the Tyson Chandler Comps. I also see a lot of Jaxon Hayes and WCS. High ceiling and pretty low floor. In the summer league, I'm looking for his stifling defense against guys that are a bit better than college dudes. His game doesn't necessarily translate well to glorified pickup games, but we'll see.

[JamesConway912]

I think he’s a major reach in the lottery. He is mostly a rim runner with little to no offensive game/outside shot, also not really freakish athletically/physically. I would have been alright with picking him in the 20s but not this early given that rim runners don’t have much value around the league.

Hopefully they’ll at least carve out a clear role for him. He needs a realistic path to minutes. 18+mpg should be the goal.

[dirkfansince1998]

Not buying into the 3-point shooting based on a couple of workout clips but if he can hit the corner 3 on league average percentage that´s enough to get him on the floor as long as his defense is as good as advertised.

[KillerLeft]

I think he’s a major reach in the lottery. He is mostly a rim runner with little to no offensive game/outside shot, also not really freakish athletically/physically. I would have been alright with picking him in the 20s but not this early given that rim runners don’t have much value around the league.

Hopefully they’ll at least carve out a clear role for him. He needs a realistic path to minutes. 18+mpg should be the goal.

With Lively, the vision is on the defensive end. It’s obvious he’s going to be a major deterrent in the paint, but I agree - that, alone, isn’t all that special. He has fast feet. Are they fast enough to do a little late-clock switching? Fast enough that you don’t have to take him out when the other team spreads your defense out? If so, that’s a lottery pick at his size, imho.

On offense, I agree - not special. However, if he comes on with the mindset that he’s here to SET SCREENS he’s already a better fit than anyone they’ve had around here other than Powell. If he really does develop that shooting stroke his fans talk about and can POP as well as roll, I like it.

[Knutsen]

I think he’s a major reach in the lottery. He is mostly a rim runner with little to no offensive game/outside shot, also not really freakish athletically/physically. I would have been alright with picking him in the 20s but not this early given that rim runners don’t have much value around the league.

Hopefully they’ll at least carve out a clear role for him. He needs a realistic path to minutes. 18+mpg should be the goal.

Give him 20 minutes playing with Doncic and/or Irving and he‘ll average double digit points just by playing off of them. I think the fit is perfect, he has a chance to be much better on offense on the Mavs than on almost every other team in the league.

[audiosway]

Give him 20 minutes playing with Doncic and/or Irving and he‘ll average double digit points just by playing off of them. I think the fit is perfect, he has a chance to be much better on offense on the Mavs than on almost every other team in the league.

I agree. He is very much going to be like Tyson Chandler was with the Mavs. A dpoy candidate that is a huge lob and put back threat.

His D is legit. He has great anticipation. Really good motor and never stops moving his feet. He needs to work on setting screens better but he'll get it. His defensive awareness is really high. I've been watching a lot of footage of him and see what they like. He can guard perimeter or post. If he looses his man from the perimeter he has the length to make it up. Reminds me a lot of Jaren Jackson with that.

Where he will be very different from guys like Looney is his movement without the ball and rolling ability. Looney is a liability on offense because he isn't fast enough to roll and can't shoot from outside. Lively is a huge roll presence and lob threat. His skill set is a perfect fit in Dallas.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

The good:

• He can box out very well when he tries. 

The bad:

• He never looked to score. 
  
• His screens left a little to be desired.
  
• Did I mention he has no touch around the basket? 
  

Noticed the box out too, he isn't consistent with it. 
When he isn't making a follow dunk on a miss, his shot is wayward.
I guess we have all seen the clip where he hits like 14 3s in a row, but in game footage I've seen were mostly misses. Maybe he could just focus on shooting 3s when on the corners.
The officials would have a field day calling out moving screens as he learns how to properly set them.

But yeah, his interior D is as good as advertised.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

not really freakish athletically/physically. 

I think a 7'7" wingspan isn't the norm.
Even for 7 footers.
But I could be wrong of course, too lazy to Google it.

[KillerLeft]

I think a 7'7" wingspan isn't the norm.
Even for 7 footers.
But I could be wrong of course, too lazy to Google it.

No, you’re right. He’s pretty special, physically.

It’s the feet that matter, though. Need to see how he’s able to defend the pick and roll after a year. That’s literally the only thing that matters with centers in most situations nowadays.

[Dundalis]

I agree. He is very much going to be like Tyson Chandler was with the Mavs. A dpoy candidate that is a huge lob and put back threat.

His D is legit. He has great anticipation. Really good motor and never stops moving his feet. He needs to work on setting screens better but he'll get it. His defensive awareness is really high. I've been watching a lot of footage of him and see what they like. He can guard perimeter or post. If he looses his man from the perimeter he has the length to make it up. Reminds me a lot of Jaren Jackson with that.

Where he will be very different from guys like Looney is his movement without the ball and rolling ability. Looney is a liability on offense because he isn't fast enough to roll and can't shoot from outside. Lively is a huge roll presence and lob threat. His skill set is a perfect fit in Dallas.

Actually feel like Jaren Jackson is a pretty good comp for him defensively. The rim protection is obvious, but lots of defensive center prospects have shown good rim protection. The pick and roll defense is what sells him to me. I know he still has plenty of areas to work on, but seriously, how many 7'0 prospects actually come out of the draft looking as good in PnR defense and defending out on the perimeter as he does? I'd hazard a guess the list is very very short.

He does have small hands for his size though (apparently 8.25 inches), so hopefully it's not a problem for him catching balls, he will be able to develop his rim running game just by virtue of being athletic, and 7'1 with a 7'7 wingspan. The 3 point shot developing is the cherry on top that gives you the glimpse that he could potentially be something more than just a defensive specialist.

But a DPOY candidate who scores 9-10 points a game purely from rim running is easily worth where we picked him for the guy who said he was a reach.

[Knutsen]

Give him 20 minutes playing with Doncic and/or Irving and he‘ll average double digit points just by playing off of them. I think the fit is perfect, he has a chance to be much better on offense on the Mavs than on almost every other team in the league.

So actually he‘s averaging 24 minutes and scoring 9.1 points. 

Never been more happy to be wrong! 

I guess he would be a clear cut top 3 pick in a redraft today - what a great get by the Mavs, especially with the trade down.

[SleepingHero]

Its funny coming back and reading my initial horror at the Lively pick. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

Thankfully I went back and actually watched full games and saw what Nico saw. What is apparent is just how much Lively has improved from last year. His pick setting really wasn't great but he's fantastic now.

Sky's the limit for the dude if he just keeps working.

[Knutsen]

Its funny coming back and reading my initial horror at the Lively pick. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

Thankfully I went back and actually watched full games and saw what Nico saw. What is apparent is just how much Lively has improved from last year. His pick setting really wasn't great but he's fantastic now.

Sky's the limit for the dude if he just keeps working.

That’s why I went waaaay back to find the thread. Reading the initial reactions makes you appreciate our front office and Lively himself.