GAME 62: LAL (28-32) @ DAL (32-29) | 2:30 CST tip

[Mavs2021]

I know you aren't responding to my post directly but to explain my worry in a few more words.

There are 3 players on this team that should be permanent starters. Even if you don't agree with that statement, there should be 3 players that get ~30+ minutes a night.

If Kidd wants to experiment with starting Holiday, trying him in the DFS role, I think it's fantastic. Do it at the expense of Bullock or Hardaway.

Green will likely be here the next 3+ years. Holiday, Bullock and Hardaway most definitely will not be.

If you're Kidd you're focus should be finding what works with Luka/Irving/Green. A 4 or 5 game stretch where Green isn't setting the world on fire doesn't warrant playing 16 minutes and inferior (temporary) players are leaping him in the rotation.

It is one game - but like you, I don't have much faith that Kidd has some master plan up his sleeve.

It´s on Cuban/Nico to give a direction to this franchise. Kidd is just a coach. Carlisle and now Kidd neglect the draft and player development in favour of bargain bin veterans looking for a last pay cheque before retirement. As we see now in Indiana, Carlisle can work with younger players, when he has no other choice.

It was not their decision how the roster was constructed. It was Cuban. Cuban hates rookies. Why pay $6M a year for a rookie to get better, when you can pay a veteran $2M, who will do a better job. Cuban doesn´t want to invest into a rookie becoming an All-Star in four years time like Brunson, when he doesn´t make the team better immediately/in the next 12 months aka as Short-Terminitis the Cuban illness. The fact that Cuban can´t think ahead more than 12 months, has hurt this franchise forever.

The coach just does what the owner/GM wants, so he doesn´t get fired. I honestly think I got the Carlisle situation pretty wrong. I figured given his standing that Carlisle would have/used his power to impact personnel decisions. Now it looks like he just wanted to be a coach, not a shadow GM. He coached whatever trash Cuban/Donnie put together and the last few years he probably just mailed it in.

[hakeemfaan]

I’m never going to be a Kidd apologist, because there are many things about him I just don’t buy.

But, I think way too much is being made of this Holiday starting over Green thing. I think it was a temporary measure to accomplish two things:

1) accelerate the “crash course” schedule of getting Holiday acclimated to the team. Say what you want, but to me he has been better than expected and will unquestionably be in the stretch run/playoff rotation.

2) give him a shot to play the DFS role against a big, athletic front court like LA’s. This is unquestionably the biggest design flaw with the roster right now, so I get Kidd’s interest in experimenting for a week or so to find the best mix at his disposal. It didn’t go well, but I understand the thinking.

And, Green hasn’t been super great for this recent stretch (four games or so), so while he has obviously solidified his role on the team moving forward, I think there possibly could’ve been some thinking that scaling him back to his old role for a game or three might help recoup some of his comfort and confidence. 

It didn’t occur to me to wonder if Holiday was actually being given a chance to leap frog Green in the role hierarchy in any sort of permanent sense, and I don’t believe that’s the case after seeing some worry about it here.

Green is one part. The other part is that Hardy absolutely has to get around 20 mins a game, even if he struggles. He has the ability to create his own shot and unlike Green, he has the confidence to not always defer, even if it is Lukabir Kyrie calling for the ball. That should be encouraged and developed.  Next year Kyrie most likely won’t even be here. Even if he is, we need that 3rd creator.  

A coach can integrate newer players but why is it that when it comes to the Mavs the moment they get a retread veteran the first casualty seems to be development of someone younger who has shown promise? A year later that retread is cut and we are back to square one. Seen this time and again.

[MaxiThreeba]

Green is one part. The other part is that Hardy absolutely has to get around 20 mins a game, even if he struggles. He has the ability to create his own shot and unlike Green, he has the confidence to not always defer, even if it is Lukabir Kyrie calling for the ball. That should be encouraged and developed.  Next year Kyrie most likely won’t even be here. Even if he is, we need that 3rd creator.  

A coach can integrate newer players but why is it that when it comes to the Mavs the moment they get a retread veteran the first casualty seems to be development of someone younger who has shown promise? A year later that retread is cut and we are back to square one. Seen this time and again.

Whenever there is a pattern, you always have to find the constant.  We (myself included) blamed Rick...blamed Donnie...blamed Harlabob...blame Kidd....blame Nico.

There is blame to find in all of those guys.  

The one constant, though, is this guy:

[KillerLeft]

Interesting how both career trajectories changed after they left the Suns. It was actually the opposite in their early seasons.

Well...they ARE twins. Maybe they pulled the ol' switcheroo and are running some type of decade-long experiment?

---

I know you aren't responding to my post directly but to explain my worry in a few more words.

There are 3 players on this team that should be permanent starters. Even if you don't agree with that statement, there should be 3 players that get ~30+ minutes a night.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. 

I think we all believe this is where Green is headed, to this status. 

I'm not sure Kidd thinks he's there yet, based on a myriad and variety of observations. 

I'd probably lean towards your POV.

[KillerLeft]

The other part is that Hardy absolutely has to get around 20 mins a game, even if he struggles.

Sorry, I don't agree here. It was easy to predict that Hardy's role would evaporate after the break, when things started to get serious. They're mistake-prone without him, because everyone is new to Kyrie and Holiday. I think not compounding that with another wildcard is the right call, personally. 

Hardy got a LOT of burn this year. I'm sure he'll get some chances down the stretch here and there, and maybe even a few in the playoffs, but I'm not surprised at all that he's no longer in the rotation. 

This time next year, I think he will be. He's developing fast.

[SkenfromLMF]

GUYS this is why we study history...

CUBAN is the one who gave up on the draft and it happened long before Carlisle and Donnie took the reigns.

The first draft that Cuban oversaw was the 2000 draft. Dallas had the 9th pick and Don Nelson had already circled Etan Thomas on his draft card. Dallas also held a pick in the '20s.
The conversation, between Nellie and Cuban centered around who the most NBA ready player in the draft was. Nellie's answer was Courtney Alexander. When the draft hits Courtney Alexander is on the board and Nellie is sticking to Etan Thomas (as the biggest upside player). Cuban goes out and buys Orlando's pick (actually a deferred pick that would be protected) to Orlando, so that Dallas can draft Alexander. At that moment in team history Nellie (and Donnie) had the highest regard among drafting FO's because in '98 they made the Dirk/Nash draft day splash.

What happened is that Cubes ended up with 3 picks in the absolute worst draft in the last 25 years. He was absolutely disgusted with the results and vowed to never again trust fate to the draft (outside of a high lottery pick). He basically killed all resources that the scouting department allocated to the draft and Dallas had to roll blind unless they were in on a top level pick. Not sure much has changed other than what Nico brings to the table organically. Dallas still neglects drafts as a rule (think about the Harris/Podkolzine draft Nellie out; and the Green/Terry/Bey draft Donnie out) and is really going through the motions. The Luka-Brunson draft is the kind of draft that turns a franchise into a perennial contender, and we are spinning our tires because we let JB go. Ultimately the draft that seals this version of the events happened in the 2013 process. Cuban sold our pick twice to move down for MAX CAP opportunities while his PBO/GM is saying draft that guy. Milwaukee did and the rest is...

History

[hakeemfaan]

Sorry, I don't agree here. It was easy to predict that Hardy's role would evaporate after the break, when things started to get serious. They're mistake-prone without him, because everyone is new to Kyrie and Holiday. I think not compounding that with another wildcard is the right call, personally. 

Hardy got a LOT of burn this year. I'm sure he'll get some chances down the stretch here and there, and maybe even a few in the playoffs, but I'm not surprised at all that he's no longer in the rotation. 

This time next year, I think he will be. He's developing fast.

If you think this team is a legit contender as built, then sure. Which is not the case  Even then, you have to find the third creator on this team. The moment Dinwiddie left, Hardy is your 3rd creator. If Dinwiddie were here. I would agree with your take. We are just wasting time saying Hardy can get more burn next year.

[KillerLeft]

If you think this team is a legit contender as built, then sure. Which is not the case  Even then, you have to find the third creator on this team. The moment Dinwiddie left, Hardy is your 3rd creator. If Dinwiddie were here. I would agree with your take. We are just wasting time saying Hardy can get more burn next year.

Sure, BUT, everything must be viewed through the lens of trying to win THIS YEAR. You don’t trade for Kyrie Irving, especially with even a slim chance that he bolts this summer, unless you’re desperate to win THIS YEAR. Do I think they have a shot? Not really, but THEY do. They really, really think so. 

Hey, I was against the deal, remember? I would’ve happily gone into the playoffs either with the team they had or made a more sensible trade for a cheaper, younger player who could possibly add to and grow with the long term core of this team. They felt they had to do this for Luka, and now probably feel they have to maximize THIS SEASON’s team to keep Kyrie interested…for Luka.

[KillerLeft]

GUYS this is why we study history...

CUBAN is the one who gave up on the draft and it happened long before Carlisle and Donnie took the reigns.

The first draft that Cuban oversaw was the 2000 draft. Dallas had the 9th pick and Don Nelson had already circled Etan Thomas on his draft card. Dallas also held a pick in the '20s.
The conversation, between Nellie and Cuban centered around who the most NBA ready player in the draft was. Nellie's answer was Courtney Alexander. When the draft hits Courtney Alexander is on the board and Nellie is sticking to Etan Thomas (as the biggest upside player). Cuban goes out and buys Orlando's pick (actually a deferred pick that would be protected) to Orlando, so that Dallas can draft Alexander. At that moment in team history Nellie (and Donnie) had the highest regard among drafting FO's because in '98 they made the Dirk/Nash draft day splash.

What happened is that Cubes ended up with 3 picks in the absolute worst draft in the last 25 years. He was absolutely disgusted with the results and vowed to never again trust fate to the draft (outside of a high lottery pick). He basically killed all resources that the scouting department allocated to the draft and Dallas had to roll blind unless they were in on a top level pick. Not sure much has changed other than what Nico brings to the table organically. Dallas still neglects drafts as a rule (think about the Harris/Podkolzine draft Nellie out; and the Green/Terry/Bey draft Donnie out) and is really going through the motions. The Luka-Brunson draft is the kind of draft that turns a franchise into a perennial contender, and we are spinning our tires because we let JB go. Ultimately the draft that seals this version of the events happened in the 2013 process. Cuban sold our pick twice to move down for MAX CAP opportunities while his PBO/GM is saying draft that guy. Milwaukee did and the rest is...

History

Greatness. 

This is what I meant the other day with my “older members” comment. I wasn’t talking about people’s ages, I was referencing the group of us who’ve been fans at this deep level so long we’ve seen all of this play out 3-4 times. It really starts to bring you down after a while. 

But I’m trying to hang in there.

[omahen]

GUYS this is why we study history...

CUBAN is the one who gave up on the draft and it happened long before Carlisle and Donnie took the reigns.

The first draft that Cuban oversaw was the 2000 draft. Dallas had the 9th pick and Don Nelson had already circled Etan Thomas on his draft card. Dallas also held a pick in the '20s.
The conversation, between Nellie and Cuban centered around who the most NBA ready player in the draft was. Nellie's answer was Courtney Alexander. When the draft hits Courtney Alexander is on the board and Nellie is sticking to Etan Thomas (as the biggest upside player). Cuban goes out and buys Orlando's pick (actually a deferred pick that would be protected) to Orlando, so that Dallas can draft Alexander. At that moment in team history Nellie (and Donnie) had the highest regard among drafting FO's because in '98 they made the Dirk/Nash draft day splash.

What happened is that Cubes ended up with 3 picks in the absolute worst draft in the last 25 years. He was absolutely disgusted with the results and vowed to never again trust fate to the draft (outside of a high lottery pick). He basically killed all resources that the scouting department allocated to the draft and Dallas had to roll blind unless they were in on a top level pick. Not sure much has changed other than what Nico brings to the table organically. Dallas still neglects drafts as a rule (think about the Harris/Podkolzine draft Nellie out; and the Green/Terry/Bey draft Donnie out) and is really going through the motions. The Luka-Brunson draft is the kind of draft that turns a franchise into a perennial contender, and we are spinning our tires because we let JB go. Ultimately the draft that seals this version of the events happened in the 2013 process. Cuban sold our pick twice to move down for MAX CAP opportunities while his PBO/GM is saying draft that guy. Milwaukee did and the rest is...

History

But on the other hand, draft was the only thing they did well since they drafted Luka. Sure they missed on a couple of second rounders (Terry hurts), but there were more hits than misses lately. The problem is more, as you point out, that Mavs are always looking for short term success and neglecting long term team growth. They were always looking to put win now teams around Dirk and they were looking to put a win now team in the whole "Luka era". That is why they never have assets that might be traded or might develop. That's why they never seem to be able to build a dynasty. Just not enough patience and smart team building. Just look at Kyrie trade - first opportunity they jump for the "star", no matter how much of a gamble it is and no matter that the fit is questionable (not on offense, not worried about that at all). 

What I can't understand. Even when they do the gamble for a star, they do it halfway. They traded for KP. They had max cap space before signing him to his new contract, yet they did nothing with that. Huge missed opportunity to either add serious pieces around Luka/KP or get more assets selling that cap space. They trade for Kai leaving huge hole at big wing while already having same center problem they had last season, yet they don't go all the way to fill that hole and actually build something close to a contender.

[MFFL]

The game annoyed the fuck out of me. The main annoyance was losing but the absolute glee of the announcers for the Lakers was a close second.

[ballsrchr]

The game annoyed the fuck out of me. The main annoyance was losing but the absolute glee of the announcers for the Lakers was a close second.

I agree...and it's like that with most of the announcers when the Mavs play  And to top it off...I have always disliked Doris Burke.  My favorite announcer is Mark Followill...I guess because I'm a 43 year homer...

I hope some other network doesn't steal him...

That would make my day...