PRESEASON GAME 1: DAL @ OKC | 98-96 win

[mvossman]

What you want is at the 5, as I see things, is a 6'11" version of DFS with about 35 more pounds on his frame. But, the key (at least to me) is: CAN HE MOVE HIS FEET?

How many guys in the NBA fit that description?  I mean we are bitching about McGee for the lowly tax MLE because what we really need is Bam or JJJ?  We don't have the assets to even think about getting a player like that until we are ready to blow our wad, and it seems like the target for that is a two way wing as opposed to an elite defensive center.

[ItsGoTime]

How many guys in the NBA fit that description?  I mean we are bitching about McGee for the lowly tax MLE because what we really need is Bam or JJJ?  We don't have the assets to even think about getting a player like that until we are ready to blow our wad, and it seems like the target for that is a two way wing as opposed to an elite defensive center.

Honestly, the only guy I can think of that might be available is Isaac, but he's like JJJ, always injured, and that IMO is because he is forced to do too much on such a skinny frame (he only has 10 lbs on DFS but he does have the height). I don't think he can take the banging and would need a McGee'like guy to take that on until we get late into the playoffs.

[Kammrath]

this switchable defense being a strength that lead to a deep playoff run, but the numbers don't really support that, either for the regular season or the playoffs.

Yep, 100%. Switchable defense is nice in theory, but the Mavs never played top level (even average?) switchable D. I think in part because Luka was such a defensive liability last year.

[KillerLeft]

On your side of the argument, who was/is available that is a 6'11" DFS with 35 more lbs on his frame and can move his feet? I want the name of that guy we missed on. If he wasn't there, I think McGee fits in quite nicely until that guy is identified and acquired. Bringing in more wings isn't gonna help with the bigger guys.

Oh, I don't think they "missed" on one - they're SUPER hard to get. Claxton's status was a little up in the air, but I'm not sure he was available, exactly, and he's just maybe about to be one of those guys. 

I disagree so wholeheartedly that how the Mavs handled "the big guys" was their problem last year that I don't know how to further the conversation. My contention is that not being able to improve on Kleber/Powell (while improving in other areas that matter) but still playing the style of game that got them so far last season would've represented improvement. Instead, they're changing part of what worked. McGee is fine, I suppose, but Powell was already here. Now, there's two guys who will expect to play and who we'll find out the good teams want the Mavs to trot out there. I guess my position is: "If you can't get the kind of center who actually works against all teams, focus on improving somewhere else."

[KillerLeft]

Yep, 100%. Switchable defense is nice in theory, but the Mavs never played top level (even average?) switchable D. I think in part because Luka was such a defensive liability last year.

The problem with this thinking is that it doesn't seem to take into account that "to switch or not to switch" is not always a choice. The main reason the Mavs beat the Suns is that they felt they must switch everything against the Mavs' offensive approach and unlike the Mavs, didn't have the personnel for it. Their fans were pulling their hair out over their "choice" to switch everything against Dallas, but in reality it was the lesser of two evils because they wanted no part of Luka's actual pick and roll, downhill with options game. 

And in one summer, the Mavs have made themselves look more like that overmatched team, defensively (by signing one of their actual players, no less) and even slightly compromised the offensive fear they used to put into teams like the Suns.

[DanSchwartzgan]

We're all free to disagree, but the defensive end is where I believe the two big system gets scary in today's game. 

You'll say: that's when you play him with Kleber, and Wood guards the center, and I agree, that will work in many situations. What I flatly don't believe will work in many situations at all (again, on the defensive end, not offense) is Wood/McGee or Wood/Powell. 

It's the defensive end that has me worried to see the roster balance.

We are talking past one another now (I'm arguing the sky is blue and you are arguing the grass is green).

All I'm saying and have been saying is I think Powell will get some minutes.  You interpret that to mean Powell will get some minutes with Wood.  I don't believe I've ever said that.  You seem to be arguing that a switch-heavy defensive scheme is the best way to go in the modern NBA.  Great, that is a philosophical argument, not a Mav's personnel argument.   In an ideal world you are right.  If you have the personnel to handle any combination the other 29 teams can throw at you then switch-heavy is absolutely the way to go.  Very few teams can do that which means that nearly everyone has to play at least some of their minutes a different way.  

If you are arguing (which you seem to be) that Wood as the lone big allows you to play a switch-heavy style defensively, I think you are going to be disappointed.  Wood is not Maxi.  He's horrible in space on a switch.  Since you brought up KP, Wood is probably not any better in space than KP was (but at least KP could recover occasionally and block a shot).  The only argument for Wood as the lone big is an offensive argument.  Dallas might employ Wood as a lone big as an occasional specialty lineup, but he's not a good enough defender to make it any more than that.  People often point out that he's been effective on bad teams and wonder if that will translate to a good team.  The O will certainly translate.  Dallas will provide him much more space than he's ever had.  The questionable transference is at the defensive end.  Bad teams needed his O and were willing to live with his D.  It won't be that way here.

Where Powell comes into this is by extension.  If Wood spends 1/2 - 1/3 of the game as a lone big, there are no minutes for Powell...end of story.  Big combinations of McGee/DFS, McGee/Maxi and Wood/Maxi will eat up the rest of the minutes.  But, if the team doesn't like Wood as the lone big, then suddenly there are a few minutes where Powell can get in the game.  My belief, at least in your 'first 20 games' is that we will see as much or more Powell as we do Wood as the lone big.  It is unknowable at the moment.

[KillerLeft]

All I'm saying and have been saying is I think Powell will get some minutes.  You interpret that to mean Powell will get some minutes with Wood.  I don't believe I've ever said that.

Just a clarification:

The above is an opinion of mine, not something I've gleaned from you. You and I both agree Powell will get some minutes, and I would think that if you weren't here. I think it's obvious. I'm not suggesting Powell and Wood will play together because of anything you've written (though I do carefully consider your thoughts and find them to be insightful). As I've droned on about literally all summer, it's a simple matter of the balance and make up of their top 8-10 for me. 

In my opinion, the roster balance indicates that at least some people in the Mavs org see things working out this way, regardless of what the current announced starting lineup looks like:

Center: McGee/Powell (some Wood or Kleber in "special circumstances")
4: Wood/Kleber (some DFS in "special circumstances")

Now, a few people have dismissed this idea outright, and for the record I hope they're correct because I HATE the implications of this thinking. But, I simply cannot ignore how many pieces of the puzzle lock into place when you look at things from that angle. It explains why they'd think another guard isn't necessary (Luka/Dinwiddie/THJ with Bullock getting some minutes at the 2 is a CROWD). 

I think there are people here, on Mavs twitter and all over who are stuck in 2011 and think that "always a traditional two big lineup" thing is what's needed. Is Harrison one of them? Is Kidd? Is Finley? Is Cuban? Surely they can't all be that clueless, but that's just it - with so many new people involved, we just don't know. 

I obviously don't know that things will shake out that way, don't get me wrong. That it's even an option to go that way scares me to death. 

Imo, the two-big lineup should be the "special circumstances" option, not the other way around. A team simply shouldn't have four (4!!!) bigs in their top 8 players in today's NBA.

[KillerLeft]

If you are arguing (which you seem to be) that Wood as the lone big allows you to play a switch-heavy style defensively, I think you are going to be disappointed. 

I am arguing that the Mavs had an approach last year, and that the approach was at least partially responsible for their success. Did they need improvement within that approach? Most definitely. 

What I don't accept is the thinking that because they couldn't find a player who fits like a glove into that approach they should change approaches. Focus on another position, then, live with Kleber/Powell one more season. Or, honestly, as many as necessary until you can find the right guy. 

I have no illusions about whether Wood is Kleber. None. My thinking is that if he's going to fit into a championship approach, it's never going to be as a 4 (at least, in any usual sense) and that the 5 is really his only option with the way the game is played today. My thinking is that if he can't do that, he should probably be seeking employment in China or Greece or something. I have no interest in changing the approach to suit someone who isn't up to what's needed from him. I believe things should flow in the other direction. 

To contradict what I just wrote in the last post, the idea that he'll come off the bench lends a little bit of credit to the idea that the Mavs (or some of them) might agree with me, and that they're saying "get better at defense if you want to play." This has been @"F Gump"'s take all summer, and I think there's some logic to it. Again, we just won't know until we know.

---

My belief, at least in your 'first 20 games' is that we will see as much or more Powell as we do Wood as the lone big.  It is unknowable at the moment.

I think you're absolutely right. I just don't like it. But not because of Powell. I'd have been just fine sliding Powell right back into his role from last year and not messing with McGee, personally.

[KillerLeft]

The only argument for Wood as the lone big is an offensive argument. 

I see what you're saying here, but I can't agree, sorry. 

Clearly, you don't share this hangup, but I believe a crucial part of any dominant defense is foot speed. 

Remember, before the half court defense starts, you must first get back in transition faster than the opposition attacks. Now that they've removed the "take foul" option (something the Mavs took advantage of more than their fair share, I believe, even with their smaller lineups), this will be tougher than ever. 

Once you get to half-court defense, we need to realize it's not about strength anymore. It's about SPRINTING back and forth from the 3-point line to the paint, around multiple screens, the entire width of the court along the baseline, etc. Changing directions (reactively, no less - much more taxing) all the while. 

If you can't hang with your opponents or even best them from a speed/agility standpoint, you have zero chance defensively, imho. For that reason, I want my center to be faster, more agile and have a higher motor than my opponents'. Ditto for the biggest forward. Ditto for the wings, etc, etc. This is important to note, because I believe the days of "he's not a good defensive center, so let's hide him on a non-shooter on that end" are OVER. Teams' spacing is too good nowadays - everyone can shoot. Thinking that way just results in MORE slow players on the court who can be exploited. It's a literal invitation to the other team: "if you move the ball, you're either going to get an uncontested layup or a wide open corner 3. Enjoy!"

It's not that I don't value other things when thinking about defenders, it's just that I believe it has to START with that thinking. 

Name literally one wing or forward in an NBA playoff rotation who can't run Wood into the dirt, just like they can with Porzingis. Maybe you can, but I have trouble. 

The simplest way to summarize my thoughts (which I get are not fact, but I feel pretty strongly that I'm correct about this) might be this: If Wood can't learn to play center (with or without another big) then in my opinion, he is not a viable option as a heavy rotation player for a winning NBA team.

[KillerLeft]

People act like quickness is for offense and physicality is for defense, but in reality something closer to the opposite is true. 

On offense, the ball does a lot of your running for you. A shooter can be standing in the corner with hands on knees, and if his defender cares about winning at all, he's constantly ready to flash into a driving lane or all the way to the paint even and then recover back, or to some other defender, if a rotation is warranted. A defender's main job is quite literally to attempt, as best they can, to compete with the speed of the ball. 

DEFENSE = RUNNING

[mvossman]

And in one summer, the Mavs have made themselves look more like that overmatched team, defensively (by signing one of their actual players, no less) and even slightly compromised the offensive fear they used to put into teams like the Suns.

I feel like there is this assumption that we have to play McGee.  I don't think that is the case, particularly in a playoff game.  If he turns out to be a negative impact on defense against all opposing lineups due to the need for switching, then he does not see the court.  I think there will generally be times even in playoff games where having his bulk, rebounding and rim protection will be more positive than negative, but when that is not the case he sits.  All of his previous teams handled him that way, and there is no reason we can't.  We still have the switchable defender he is replacing on the team.

In the playoffs you don't want to rely on a high minutes, high dollar player that can be run off the court, but in my mind having the option to throw out a guy like McGee at times is a positive, and something we did not have last year.

I can see the argument to go a different direction to improve our switch ability, but I'm not sure who that guy would have been for the tax MLE?

[KillerLeft]

I feel like there is this assumption that we have to play McGee.  I don't think that is the case, particularly in a playoff game.

Fair, and valid. 

Although this is where I point out that apparently they had to promise him a starting job to get him to sign here. 

But no, you're right. There are still hundreds of variations on how all of this plays out. Nothing is written in stone yet.

[KillerLeft]

I can see the argument to go a different direction to improve our switch ability, but I'm not sure who that guy would have been for the tax MLE?

Again, I have no other center to push forward in a "why didn't they choose this guy" way. But, I didn't come out of the playoffs thinking a new center was the only way the team could improve, either, so I don't accept the mentality of "they had to do something there" that most everyone else locked into their pathways. 

I was fine adding Wood, realizing that to unlock his potential you'd have to hope he improved dramatically on defense (this is still true, btw, even with McGee, possibly more so) and knowing that might or might not happen. It's a hope, and I was fine with that. 

If they had opted for literally any player (regardless of position) useful in the playoffs for 18-30 minutes of regular rotation play over McGee I would be thrilled to see this season start.

[KillerLeft]

BTW, @"DanSchwartzgan" I know that this won't be an ongoing conversation due to your "one reply and done" rule and I get it (thanks for the advice on that - it has helped me a lot this summer). 

In this case, I just had to get a lot of this out of my system, so thanks for giving me the opportunity. I always love reading your stuff!

[ItsGoTime]

Oh, I don't think they "missed" on one - they're SUPER hard to get. Speedy Claxton's status was a little up in the air, but I'm not sure he was available, exactly, and he's just maybe about to be one of those guys. 

Nic Claxton is the guy you're referring to and he weighs LESS than DFS. DFS would be better guarding bigs than him. However, at least you're naming names, and that is at least something tangible we can look at as to your thinking on this. I also might suggest, if he is the player with that potential, the Nets would be far from allowing him to go. Looking at his stats, he could be an upgrade in bpg to Powell, but that frame doesn't allow him to control the paint in any meaningful way (Powell would be better at this, and he's bad).

I disagree so wholeheartedly that how the Mavs handled "the big guys" was their problem last year that I don't know how to further the conversation. My contention is that not being able to improve on Kleber/Powell (while improving in other areas that matter) but still playing the style of game that got them so far last season would've represented improvement.

This is also something. After Losing KP, the Mavs had Powell and Kleber (well, Boban and Chriss if you want to count them) and Powell wasn't getting many minutes. Our defense (as pointed out by @"mvossman") dropped significantly and we all know Kidd wants to win starting with defense. 

Those two got dominated by Looney who isn't all that integral to what the Warriors do as evidenced by his minutes and production in all the other playoff series they played last year (meaning he isn't the guy you're describing on an every game basis). He did so well against us cause we are one of the smallest teams in the league after KP left (and one of the slowest). He's an option to spell Green when the other team has big bigs like Jokic, Adams and Horford. That's what he does for them when he's not dominating the Mavs bigs.

Last year, Utah was who Utah has been in the playoffs and I think that's because Gobert isn't the FORCE he needs to be in the paint, he's like our bigs in that they can't push players around and control what happens in THEIR lane but Gobert is required to be out there due to his contract and status. Phoenix was a shocker on the level of 2011 Mavs playoff run IMO. It did, however, put into question how good is Ayton really? He didn't seem to control the paint like I thought he would, and he is required to be out there due to his status. Those two examples are reasons to agree with what you're saying, but we still have to employ the bigs that can take on the bigger guys of the NBA, just like LAC and GSW have and what TOR is trying to get.

You have to take the good with the bad when you're a beggar. Hopefully next year we can be choosers.

[ItsGoTime]

Again, I have no other center to push forward in a "why didn't they choose this guy" way. But, I didn't come out of the playoffs thinking a new center was the only way the team could improve, either, so I don't accept the mentality of "they had to do something there" that most everyone else locked into their pathways. 

Here's something too. What other areas did you think needed improving based on that playoff run? Certainly it wasn't Luka or JB. Bullock? DFS? The bench? What in your mind was so much more pressing than the bigs situation we found ourselves in during the GSW game? JB is a pretty big blow for sure. I wish that scenario played out with us keeping him, but it didn't. Wood was already in tow when clarity hit with all that. We all agree that Dragic was a HUGE miss (not that the FO thinks that, I guess). 

They have seen these guys in practice and are deciding to bet on their development as far as replacing the ball handling that JB represented, not the player. Largely, this is the same team that we started out with last season with 1 difference, Wood and McGee basically replace KP. I think that is an upgrade, but time will tell with Wood.

[dirkfansince1998]

Just to clarify a couple of things. The best defensive stretch of the season was in january when KP missed half of the month. Problem was the usual wear and tear that comes with smaller lineups. Wouldn´t be suprised if that was the time were they made the final decision to move him. Overall the Mavs defense was on pace to be better without KP but in the last 10-15 games they ran out of steam.  Maxi missed a lot of games. DFS and Bullock looked tired. Luka was his usual lazy self. If the idea is to have McGee as a guy that can take a beating and reduces the load of key guys I wouldn´t be as concerned.

My biggest concern is the amount of available minutes. Personally I just don´t see any way to pair Wood, Powell and McGee with each other. I don´t see any scenario where more than one of them can be on the floor.
If Wood shares the floor with Powell or McGee we will have the KP scenario of the past. Next to a non shooting big he probably ends up as a glorified floor spacer and with his questionable defense that´s not worth it. If Wood is on the floor he needs to be featured on offense.
As @"DanSchwartzgan" pointed out having Wood as the single big isn´t a good idea either. That leaves us with Wood/Kleber lineups as the only viable solution.
Making Maxi the most important big on the roster. In that sense I don´t think the Mavs have added flexibility. The pieces aren´t interchangeable and they are still heavily relying on Maxi. Can only hope that he stays healthy.

[Chicagojk]

Cato had a podcast this week where he made a quick mention that he thought Powell would be gone by March.   I am unsure about that.   I think I like him better here than what he would probably bring in return, I think.    He is a guy in the regular season who can help your team out who is also a strong character guy.  Not sure he brings a noticeable improvement of a player back via trade.   Maybe it is part of a bigger trade though.   I would garner to guess there is a greater likelihood he is back next year than traded this year.  I may be wrong though.

BTW, Cato also had a Wood article yesterday with some interesting info..including an idea how the minutes break out.    I think there is a good chance Frank and Josh battle for the 20 or so minutes available.

[ItsGoTime]

Personally I just don´t see any way to pair the Wood, Powell and McGee with each other. I don´t see any scenario where more than one of them can be on the floor.
If Wood shares the floor with Powell or McGee we will have the KP scenario of the past. Next to a non shooting big he probably ends up as a glorified floor spacer and with his questionable defense that´s not worth it. If Wood is on the floor he needs to be featured on offense.

Man, I just don't agree at all that they can't be on the floor together. You guys are both acting as if the spacing is so bad currently with Powell on the floor and the paint is constantly clogged. It's all about options. Wood will be a glorified spacer in that situation in that he can choose to take the wide open shot, or drive on his recovering defender. KP could not do that well enough and pouted because he wasn't good enough to do it either. We have some guys trying to do that on the team and Kidd is giving them the confidence to feel ok with doing it. Wood is a real world example of what we want to get to with all our spacers on offense IMO.

When he's either the lone big or with Maxi they can use him as the pick and roll/pop player or in a 5 out style. That's the versatility on offense he creates. He just needs someone else to be the defensive anchor. If he plays better defense as a 4 than 5, I'd rather have him in as a 4. This shifts DFS to play more 3 and Bullock to play more 2 and I think that is the issue you guys are pointing to. You want those guys to get rest, well, this is the way the FO chose to do it cause there are less minutes to take from the 2 and 3 spot. Of course, without the benefit of any games, this is all just theory, but I don't see why it is such a misguided issue. 

Seems like the hangup is in the title "big". I really don't see Maxi or Wood as a "big". Maxi on offense sticks to the corner almost exclusively, that's not a "big". He also doesn't control the paint and really isn't all that much of a rim protector, that's not a "big". Wood is more versatile on offense than Maxi which also doesn't help the "big" classification. On defense, he doesn't do "big" things either, until he shows he can. This is why "big wing" has become a term around here.

[Scott41theMavs]

Cato had a podcast this week where he made a quick mention that he thought Powell would be gone by March.   I am unsure about that.   I think I like him better here than what he would probably bring in return, I think.    He is a guy in the regular season who can help your team out who is also a strong character guy.  Not sure he brings a noticeable improvement of a player back via trade.   Maybe it is part of a bigger trade though.   I would garner to guess there is a greater likelihood he is back next year than traded this year.  I may be wrong though.

BTW, Cato also had a Wood article yesterday with some interesting info..including an idea how the minutes break out.    I think there is a good chance Frank and Josh battle for the 20 or so minutes available.

Your take is a nightmare scenario - unless the Wood experiment turns into absolute crap. Even then I wouldn't say we need Powell - we need a competent 4/5 to replace him.