GAME 59: DAL (35-24) vs. NOP (23-36): 125-118 WIN!

[KillerLeft]

We need the Bertans Bailout to recover honestly. KP Island was too big to fail.

POTD

[Chicagojk]

CJ can really score.  Just a masterful offensive player.

If they can ever get a healthy Zion back, they are an interesting team.  Not sure if they will be able to stop anyone but it would be pretty entertaining to watch.

[Winter]

I have hammered Josh Green in another thread, but it's hard to ignore this game.

This is a game that Green should have been more active in. He started the game and had 0 points in 25 minutes. More worrisome is that he only had two attempts. If you play 25 minutes and only have two attempts, then you're pretty much inactive without the ball. You're playing with Luca Doncic and you're about the fastest guy in the lineup. How difficult can it be to get open?

When Green scores in double digits it's usually because opportunities have found him, but these games seem random. He gets some transition buckets or some putbacks. Occasionally an open three. But he's not making these buckets happen. 

Somebody said about his play in the game thread, "rookie mistake"... forgetting that he's not a rookie. Let me be clear, I'm perfectly happy with him starting games like this because the more minutes he gets this season, the more we are going to find out. My personal feeling is that he needs to be packaged in a trade. There's not much of an excuse for two attempts in 25 minutes of play. Two assists. Three rebounds. Those are barely Frankie numbers and Frankie has never played 25 minutes.

[Smitty]

I have hammered Josh Green in another thread, but it's hard to ignore this game.

This is a game that Green should have been more active in. He started the game and had 0 points in 25 minutes. More worrisome is that he only had two attempts. If you play 25 minutes and only have two attempts, then you're pretty much inactive without the ball. You're playing with Luca Doncic and you're about the fastest guy in the lineup. How difficult can it be to get open?

When Green scores in double digits it's usually because opportunities have found him, but these games seem random. He gets some transition buckets or some putbacks. Occasionally an open three. But he's not making these buckets happen. 

Somebody said about his play in the game thread, "rookie mistake"... forgetting that he's not a rookie. Let me be clear, I'm perfectly happy with him starting games like this because the more minutes he gets this season, the more we are going to find out. My personal feeling is that he needs to be packaged in a trade. There's not much of an excuse for two attempts in 25 minutes of play. Two assists. Three rebounds. Those are barely Frankie numbers and Frankie has never played 25 minutes.

I'm not saying this is the case with Green, but sometimes we can get too caught up in the numbers. I've always thought DFS does more for the Mavs than the formulas or points scored can quantify. Green is not DFS, but my point is, that maybe Green isn't a box-score type player but instead just a good NBA player. It's good for teams to accumulate good NBA players... 

I'm not opposed to trading him for an obvious upgrade but I also really hope the Mavs don't use him as a "throw-in" or salary match type trade. If you're interested in numbers... Jae Crowder averaged 4.6 points in 16 mpg over 181 games for the Mavs between ages 22-24. Josh Green is 21 averaging 4.4 points in 14 mpg this year. Let's give him some time....

[Winter]

 Jae Crowder averaged 4.6 points in 16 mpg over 181 games for the Mavs between ages 22-24. Josh Green is 21 averaging 4.4 points in 14 mpg this year. Let's give him some time....

That is actually pretty interesting. But Crowder was a second-round pick with a different salary structure. And Crowder was a monster in summer league play. Green does not warrant his current paycheck... and certainly not the salary that he will be due next year. 

And the "numbers" are pretty much all we have. He has two shot attempts. Two Assists. Three rebounds. In 25 minutes of play. Those aren't DFS numbers in any year. You can't really say, "I really like what he's doing without the ball" unless maybe you're Derek Harper and need to fill some air space.

Green is just learning the NBA and is basically trying to tread water. But I don't think you wait for a first-round pick who doesn't do anything particularly well. I don't think you draft a first-round player with the thought that they are young and you are going to have to spend 2-3 years teaching them the game - and then decide how valuable they are. That's a real luxury for a team that needs to win soon.

[loki]

Although I'm happy they've moved on from KP, I think this game was a good example of why going small can be so risky. The 3 point shot won't always bail them out of giving up 17 offensive rebounds. 

In the long run they need to have the flexibility to play multiple styles. The Clippers are a great example of a team who can go small, but still have traditional bigs like Zubac and Hartenstein when needed.

[Chicagojk]

Green needs a lot of work.  I am not sure if he gets there but I have liked what I have seen this year.   For a guy who is such a good athlete, he seems to lack shiftiness.   I think.   Something just looks off when he needs to change directions or finish at the rim.  It is just weird watching him play.  

I can envision a role for him that is really unique.   Draymond Green is a HOFer and I don't think Green will ever be that level.  But If I squint I can see Green in a unique role that can't be easily defined.    How other teams may want a player like him, but he is such a unique player that it is difficult to copy.  I will be surprised if he is ever a standard 3 and D player. On the other hand, I can see him being a guy who bounces around team to team who never really finds a niche.  

I do give Kidd a lot of credit to allow players freedom on the court.   I have seen good growth from a lot of our players this year.  


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3330...p-playoffs

[Smitty]

Although I'm happy they've moved on from KP, I think this game was a good example of why going small can be so risky. The 3 point shot won't always bail them out of giving up 17 offensive rebounds. 

In the long run they need to have the flexibility to play multiple styles. The Clippers are a great example of a team who can go small, but still have traditional bigs like Zubac and Hartenstein when needed.

I agree with your flexibility comment. The traditional big can't be making 30M+ though. Looking forward to the roster building moving forward, post-KP.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I don't think you draft a first-round player with the thought that they are young and you are going to have to spend 2-3 years teaching them the game - and then decide how valuable they are.

I would argue that's exactly what you do with a 19 year old who is drafted by a team late in the first who already has a playoff ready roster.

[ItsGoTime]

I would argue that's exactly what you do with a 19 year old who is drafted by a team late in the first who already has a playoff ready roster.

Ya, depending on how playoff ready the team is it can be for an early draft prospect. Case in point, Milicic and Wiseman.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Ya, depending on how playoff ready the team is it can be for an early draft prospect. Case in point, Milicic and Wiseman.

Yep, Bey and Bane obviously look like better contributors based on early returns but I always look back and still find it hard to see how they would have had the opportunity to get the minutes here to make that kind of impact in their rookie seasons.

[dirkfansince1998]

I have hammered Josh Green in another thread, but it's hard to ignore this game.

This is a game that Green should have been more active in. He started the game and had 0 points in 25 minutes. More worrisome is that he only had two attempts. If you play 25 minutes and only have two attempts, then you're pretty much inactive without the ball. You're playing with Luca Doncic and you're about the fastest guy in the lineup. How difficult can it be to get open?

When Green scores in double digits it's usually because opportunities have found him, but these games seem random. He gets some transition buckets or some putbacks. Occasionally an open three. But he's not making these buckets happen. 

Somebody said about his play in the game thread, "rookie mistake"... forgetting that he's not a rookie. Let me be clear, I'm perfectly happy with him starting games like this because the more minutes he gets this season, the more we are going to find out. My personal feeling is that he needs to be packaged in a trade. There's not much of an excuse for two attempts in 25 minutes of play. Two assists. Three rebounds. Those are barely Frankie numbers and Frankie has never played 25 minutes.

I mentioned the rookie mistakes and I think he still qualifies for that category. He just turned 21 and barely played in a season with COVID restrictions that impacted team practice. I wasn´t a fan of the pick (still prefer Bey and Bane) but Green improved a lot and earned a spot in the rotation. He has played in every single game since 12/27. I don´t care about the number of FG attempts. Green isn´t asked to create or score. He has been one of the better defenders and makes the kind of hustle plays that you try to dismiss as opportunities that found ihm. Of course it would be even better if he develops a reliable 3-ball but I think he is on the right trajectory.

I absolutely think that the Mavs need more patience when it comes to young players. Even first round picks. Prematurely giving up on a player like Green is exactly what the old Mavs would have done. Can only hope that the new regime thinks differently.

We have a young player that is playing 20 minutes per game in the last few weeks making less than three million. He isn´t the problem. Mavs would be in a good spot if they had more players of his quality on rookie contracts. If they would invest into draft picks instead of using them as trade assets. If they would invest more into the development of young players instead of giving up roster spots for players like Burke or Boban. If they would at least care enough to actually use the available two-way spots.

[mvossman]

That is actually pretty interesting. But Crowder was a second-round pick with a different salary structure. And Crowder was a monster in summer league play. Green does not warrant his current paycheck... and certainly not the salary that he will be due next year. 

And the "numbers" are pretty much all we have. He has two shot attempts. Two Assists. Three rebounds. In 25 minutes of play. Those aren't DFS numbers in any year. You can't really say, "I really like what he's doing without the ball" unless maybe you're Derek Harper and need to fill some air space.

Green is just learning the NBA and is basically trying to tread water. But I don't think you wait for a first-round pick who doesn't do anything particularly well. I don't think you draft a first-round player with the thought that they are young and you are going to have to spend 2-3 years teaching them the game - and then decide how valuable they are. That's a real luxury for a team that needs to win soon.

I really don't understand this mindset.  He has been favorably compared to DFS and Crowder trajectory, only at a younger age and faster, but we want to dump him in a trade because he will cost 3 mil next season?  We are already paying several players more than that who he has passed on the depth chart.  

He needs to be more aggressive offensively.  It will come in time.  He is already scoring the same points per 36 that DFS does now.  For a player this young, who improved significantly in his second year, I have no idea why we would not be excited to see what jump he can make next season?

[Winter]

I would argue that's exactly what you do with a 19 year old who is drafted by a team late in the first who already has a playoff ready roster.

He just turned 21 and barely played in a season with COVID restrictions

Seriously, what exactly do either of you guys think he's going to be? Do you think he's going to be a real 3 and D guy? The best case scenario for him now is that he turns into Garrett Temple. High energy guy who can play some D with very modest stats.

Do we need this guy?

ChicagoJK probably has it right. He is going to be one of those players who bounces around the league for awhile. Nursing him along seems like fool's gold to me. It feels like we're just making excuses to keep him.... probably because we drafted him. But if I recall, almost no one here thought he was the best draft pick at the time. 

The fickled nature of message boards I suppose.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

High energy guy who can play some D with very modest stats.

Do we need this guy?

Everyone needs guys like that.

I wrote him off too but if you think the Josh Green you're seeing today isn't different than the one in early December then I'm just not sure we're seeing the same thing.  I was at the Nuggets game early on where we got run off the court and he looked like he simply didn't belong then and now he's starting for us in back to back wins.  He's made huge strides.  He handles the ball well, moves constantly, makes the right passes and plays hard defense at the point of attack.  If there's an upgrade out there from a team that wants him then sure we should move him but you don't just dump someone showing promise at 21.  I think there's an obvious upward trajectory that he's on, we've watched late draft picks like Jared Cunningham and Dominique Jones show they couldn't hang at all when they were given opportunities and he looks nothing like those two.

Also, it's an odd thing to complain about FG attempts in a game where Luka shot 35 times...there wasn't a lot to go around after that.  Crazy to think Dirk never had a single game shooting that many times.

[dirkfansince1998]

Seriously, what exactly do either of you guys think he's going to be? Do you think he's going to be a real 3 and D guy? The best case scenario for him now is that he turns into Garrett Temple. High energy guy who can play some D with very modest stats.

Do we need this guy?

ChicagoJK probably has it right. He is going to be one of those players who bounces around the league for awhile. Nursing him along seems like fool's gold to me. It feels like we're just making excuses to keep him.... probably because we drafted him. But if I recall, almost no one here thought he was the best draft pick at the time. 

The fickled nature of message boards I suppose.

All I see is a serious case of smartest guy in the room attitude. He is 21 has played less than 100 games in the NBA and you already know what kind of player he is going to be.

[Winter]

Everyone needs guys like that.

Really? You think Josh Green stats are worth keeping? You're convinced he's going to become

If there's an upgrade out there from a team that wants him then sure we should move him

That's exactly what I've been saying. In fact, that's all I've been saying. You move Josh Green and Bertans for another wing in free agency. That's the kind of thing Josh Green is good for now. That's what makes him attractive.

[SleepingHero]

Seriously, what exactly do either of you guys think he's going to be? Do you think he's going to be a real 3 and D guy? The best case scenario for him now is that he turns into Garrett Temple. High energy guy who can play some D with very modest stats.

Do we need this guy?

I mean it's hard to get an accurate comp on such a unique player. Like you said he can go 25 minutes without scoring a single point, yet have an impact on the game in other areas such as good ball movement and defense (not saying last night was a perfect example of that). 

But to say his absolute best case scenario is Garrett Temple, when he is only 21 and has shown improvement compared to his rookie year is a little premature.

I'd say his best case scenario is 2015 Iggy Warriors version. A guy who comes off the bench, scores 7-8 points, plays all-NBA defense, and can be a pseudo-point guard. 

I think that's pretty realistic too, given that he doesn't need to add much to his offensive game other than be a little bit more aggressive and controlled. He already has the passing instincts, and his defense has shown to have the potential to be elite.

I mean look at him in MIA:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MavsDraft/sta...5922612230

It's not easy containing a Jimmy Butler drive and forcing a contested fadeaway.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

That's exactly what I've been saying. In fact, that's all I've been saying.

No one would disagree to upgrading talent if the offer presents itself.  No one is disagreeing that we were hoping for one of two different guys when he got drafted.

But you're also claiming to know what his ceiling is at the age of 21 and that's what people are responding too.

[Winter]

But you're also claiming to know what he's ceiling is at the age of 21 and that's what people are responding too.

Not exactly. I was claiming the time we've had him is a reasonable amount of time for the Mavs to evaluate him. I am claiming that his value at present is in his trade value.

We both would like to get value from him either as a skilled player or in a trade. I'm betting right now on his trade value. If you see him as a future Dallas Maverick with a real skill set... well I don't see it.