MISSING: Mavsluvr (his last picture)

[burekemde]

I know I'm certainly gonna go out of my way now not to interact with Kamm in any way
Don't want him building up some weird fantasy world in his mind where I'm e-bullying him

I do feel the same way. Need to be super cautious not to be treated as ML.

My problem is that I dont look the names of posters I reply to. I have often tendency to read a post and reply on the opinion.

[WildArkieBoy]

I know I'm certainly gonna go out of my way now not to interact with Kamm in any way
Don't want him building up some weird fantasy world in his mind where I'm e-bullying himFa

Fanning the flames of message board discord?

[hakeemfaan]

If differing opinions bothered or upset Kamm, I would have been banned a long time ago. 

Yes the words he used should not have been used and Kamm has apologized for that as he didn’t understand how it would be perceived, but let’s stop saying that happened due to opinions that were different  from his. That’s not what led to Kamm snapping.

[fifteenth]

ATTENTION HUMANS

Some of y'all are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is! And the "pile on" that's taking place on Kam is very internet like (the internet is the new mob), but it's not usually how we do things around here. Take that stuff back to facebook, twitter, reddit, freindster, my space, SI, or where ever y'all hang out. 

Here's the deal: The beloved mavsluvr and Kam got sideways with each other and they both overreacted. I've shared my thoughts with each of them on PM. And now others are overreacting. (Like, you don't want to talk basketball with us, but you'll show up to pile on someone)

I've received and dished out WAY harsher stuff than was exchanged in this most recent of dust ups in my years on Mavs forums! And all involved blew it off a lot more easily than we're allowing this to blow over. 

So how about we pretend we're in real life here, and stop the pile on? 

And if you need to pile on someone, come at me, bro. I'm your huckleberry. Give me your best shot! Just don't talk about my Mom or DFS. 

Alrighty then, if I have any takers, or in case any of you people (who are you calling "you people"?) still need to vent...then let's take it to the CAVE.

[hakeemfaan]

Can we just have mm pic and first two posts in the main board and lock it?  It must have been an awesome experience for him that he shared with us. That part doesn’t belong in the troll cave

[fifteenth]

Can we just have mm pic and first two posts in the main board and lock it?  It must have been an awesome experience for him that he shared with us. That part doesn’t belong in the troll cave

That's a good point. I'll do that. Have to do it later though, gotta go eat. BRB

[soog]

I’ve been gone for a while. I just logged back on last night and stayed up way too late reading every post in here.  I’m really gutted to see it has come to this.  This is one reason I hate the internet - many nuances of communication are lost on a computer screen and it sets all of us up for failure. I imagine if this all happened over a shared pitcher at a bar rather than keyboards across the internet it would have been put to bed that night and never thought of again. 

Hope you guys are able to reconcile.  I’m really going to miss the void left by @mavsluvr

[BasketballJones41]

ATTENTION HUMANS

Some of y'all are making a way bigger deal out of this than it is! And the "pile on" that's taking place on Kam is very internet like (the internet is the new mob), but it's not usually how we do things around here. Take that stuff back to facebook, twitter, reddit, freindster, my space, SI, or where ever y'all hang out. 

Here's the deal: The beloved mavsluvr and Kam got sideways with each other and they both overreacted. I've shared my thoughts with each of them on PM. And now others are overreacting. (Like, you don't want to talk basketball with us, but you'll show up to pile on someone)

I've received and dished out WAY harsher stuff than was exchanged in this most recent of dust ups in my years on Mavs forums! And all involved blew it off a lot more easily than we're allowing this to blow over. 

So how about we pretend we're in real life here, and stop the pile on? 

And if you need to pile on someone, come at me, bro. I'm your huckleberry. Give me your best shot! Just don't talk about my Mom or DFS. 

Alrighty then, if I have any takers, or in case any of you people (who are you calling "you people"?) still need to vent...then let's take it to the CAVE.

What in the hell is going on in this thread? We’re grown men on a sports forum acting like a bunch of reality show women. Two dudes getting a little sideways with each other during a sports debate has probably been going on since the the very first sporting ever. Do you think back in the old days men stayed upset for a week over a chariot racing debate? Nothing egregious happened here just a simple misunderstanding. It’s time to quit ganging up on Kamm and appreciate how good we have it in this community. Instead of doing any more whining about this let’s all just have a Coke and a smile.

[michaeltex]

To all the posters reaching out with encouragement and support —

Thank you. It means more than you know. I am sorry to have disappointed you by disappearing, but I still haven’t “recovered” enough to go back to Mavs-posting. Maybe someday. In the meantime, I will very much look forward to reading more from each of you in my occasional lurks. 

[F Gump]

I'm in the minority, but I gotta speak up here.

While I appreciate the contributions of ML, I find it ironic that he writes eloquently about the desire to be able to express thoughts in whatever way one wishes (including deliberately agitating others, if he feels like it), but then has decided to leave the board because of the words of Kamm that he doesn't like because he felt agitated by those words. That's all it is.

By the standard you use, so should you be judged, it is said.

I see Kamm has stepped up like a man. From the very first minute that ML misunderstood Kamm's meaning, Kamm clarified and apologized very clearly. Very. Multiple times, even, when ML kept regenerating the wrong idea to gain sympathy. (Ignoring an apology and clarification, and acting like the offensive words are actually intended, is really disrespectful and self focused. Good grief.)

Feelings got hurt, I get it, but pride is a hard master when it becomes our priority over people. C'mon, ML, you're better than that as a person (I hope) - a key part of life is learning to forgive others when they OFFEND us.

God forgives us, in the way we choose (or refuse) to forgive others, says the Bible.

I would hope to eventually see ML take actual personal pubic responsibility for his agitation of Kamm. There was an intent to annoy, ML has said. Unfortunately for the forum, he feels that was okay, even though his words over time did damage to another. "I'm sorry YOU did ____" is not a real apology at all, as I'm sure you know - seeing and labeling MY actions as a wrong choice that led to a bad consequence, and apologizing for MY part in creating the end result, that's the missing step needed.

Pride goes before the fall, said a very wise man long ago. 

That's my unasked for 2c.

[fifteenth]

That's my unasked for 2c.

I'm up for your 2c as often as we can get it. Good stuff.

[mavsluvr]

GENERAL RESPONSE TO THE FELLOW TROLLS IN THE CAVE 

Guys and gals, 

Thanks for the numerous heartfelt responses. I highly value everyone’s thoughts. I don't think I've ever posted in the cave before!

Maybe I can say a few things to help us all move past this. 

There are a few facts that I think we all need to come to grips with. These may sound a little harsh, as business truths usually do when they are laid out in a barefaced manner, but they would apply to any ongoing enterprise. 

— Kamm acknowledged that he brought things to a head when he had heard enough from me. Maybe he was totally justified in doing that, maybe he overreacted, it doesn’t matter. What is important is to get this board back on track. Trying to sort out who was right or wrong is only delaying that process. 

— As an academic matter, some think it’s a good thing for me to move along, others that it isn’t. We’re never going to all agree on that. As a practical matter, it’s NBD. In a community boasting several hundred members, whether it contains one poster more or less frankly just isn’t that important. We all like to think we individually matter, but people running a board can’t make it all about one person. They have to keep on trucking, and that means moving on. 

-- Criticizing Kamm probably isn't accomplishing much at this point. Maybe he’ll lighten up, probably he won’t, but continuing to pile on him adds to the existing negativity, and is unlikely to change anything. 

These underlying views would be what anyone trying to run a site would think. They have a job to do. It only makes sense. So, for everyone continuing to post on these guys’ board, I recommend helping them out and making some posts about basketball. And I encourage everyone to stay. At least, give it a chance. If you have been enjoying the discussions here so far, there is no reason to think that will change. Heck, without me hogging so much posting space, maybe someone else will do some new and better recaps, or come up with another exciting feature!

I’ll post some contact info in a little bit, and answer your individual posts as warranted, assuming I don’t really get banned first. 

I very much appreciate all the good wishes. Will miss you all. 

ML

[KillerLeft]

As an academic matter, some think it’s a good thing for me to move along, others that it isn’t. We’re never going to all agree on that.

On the contrary, I think 100% of people who've chimed in have made it clear they don't want you to "move along," including Kamm, himself. 

The rest of this post I agree with wholeheartedly, but the above caught me by surprise.

[ItsGoTime]

I’ve never seen any reason to ban you ML. Also, your presence DOES matter around here. You’re one of the few among many in my mind. I think yhat of Kamm too. I just wish this never happened, but unfortunately Mavs-land is unicorns and rainbows-less.

[mavsluvr]

I’ve never seen any reason to ban you ML. Also, your presence DOES matter around here. You’re one of the few among many in my mind. I think yhat of Kamm too. I just wish this never happened, but unfortunately Mavs-land is unicorns and rainbows-less.

Isn't being demoted to the cave the usual predecessor to that? Yikes! I'm not used to being the "bad guy" in my various life stories -- I'm still getting used to it. Will let you know if I learn anything insightful, lol.

[fifteenth]

Isn't being demoted to the cave the usual predecessor to that? Yikes! I'm not used to being the "bad guy" in my various life stories -- I'm still getting used to it. Will let you know if I learn anything insightful, lol.

You weren't demoted to the cave!! And who is painting you as a bad guy? 

You're free to post in any thread on the entire forum (which you know)! Nothing has changed regarding the Forum's relationship to you. If any change is made, it's a change chosen by you, not us. 

I moved this thread to the cave because it started to become a "pile on Kam" thread and has nothing to do with basketball.

[mavsluvr]

meister, and whoever else feels the same way --

I think you deserve the courtesy of a serious reply to your latest, although I know people must be wondering whether I'm ever really going to take my booty out of here or not. The following does contain a few observations mentioning the mod of the moment, so no guarantees about how long this is going to be allowed to stay up, lol. 

Mavsluvr: Is there any chance to keep following you? Is there another board or anything where you regularly post or would consider to publish recaps and stuff? See separate post below.

I hope that one day, you will be able to change your mind and come back. Thanks, meister, you know what they say -- never say never, but I wouldn't expect it to be real soon. 

From my perspective, posters can from now on become open game for censoring if somebody just dislikes what they are saying.

I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but I think this is realistically where we are. If someone in authority wants you out, you’re out. That is true of many organizations, not just this one. When issues arise, the practicalities of being able to move on usually outweigh whatever the merits of the matter in question might be. Kamm has been very open about that proposition — post how he wants, or don’t post. I just don’t think that is necessarily all that important.  For me, it would have taken all the fun out of being here. But I don’t think it should even matter to most posters.

I can see, how your style of writing can (and like in kamm's case) can trigger and upset people - eventually, your biggest strength became the reason for your downfall.

I think you have put your finger on the heart of the bigger issue. This unpleasantness wasn’t going to be over with the resolution of this one episode. One or more people in a “power position” here find my brand of posting distasteful enough to go to the mat to do something about it, and that is exactly why I think there is no longer a future for me here. Indulge me for a few paragraphs of personal description. 


I freely acknowledge having an irreverent style, both on and off the board. I like blending serious material with breeziness and humor and satire and literary devices and references from other aspects of the culture, and the whole nine yards, when it comes to trying to be both informative and interesting. 

Believe it or not, there are a lot of people who have an appetite for that type of thing. Speaking and writing have constituted a large part of how I have made a living for many years, and people are often looking for that specific quality — teaching or commenting on difficult, complex, or dry subjects in a relatable, entertaining, and/or persuasive manner. It’s what I do. 

Like everything else, irreverent or satirical commentary has its drawbacks. By its very nature, it irritates a certain type of listener/reader. I like to laugh at myself; it delights me when someone can answer me with a witty retort giving me as good as they got. Knowing that a lot of other people feel that way too, I have a particular tendency to want to poke a bit of gentle fun at ideas expressed in a pompous manner and at instances of authority figures painting themselves as victims. But, the very people who issue those sorts of comments sometimes really hate even a little bit of humor at their expense. Partly in an effort to accommodate that group, I try to balance ironical humor with a personally respectful voice, but that’s still not enough for some readers.

Posting as much as I did, it wasn’t worth it to me to draw a bunch of fences around what I could say, trying to anticipate whether someone else could find a reason to feel slighted over my remarks. (I mean, it’s not like Kamm was sending me a paycheck for doing this.) Given that I wasn’t willing to remove my personality from my communications, I would have kept writing the way I like to write, Kamm and maybe others would have kept being irritated by the attitudes being struck, we would have had a hissy on the board every so often, and it would have been a never-ending story until someone finally decided to send one of us packing, that is to say me. It might not have been right away, but the handwriting was on the wall. Better that I just make everyone’s life easier, including my own, and move out of the way now. I’ll just write something else, and there will be an audience that is more inclined to be comfortable with whatever it is.

Having said all that, I don’t think that most posters here fit into my hapless niche. For people who aren’t always flying around sticking a pin in hot air balloons, so to speak, I don’t see that they would have any trouble at all staying out of Kamm’s way. I don’t think it is being disagreed with that bothers him and others who are put off by irreverence. More like, if they get a sense that someone isn’t taking them as seriously as they want. If a mod does develop an animosity toward you, maybe then you’ll have to decide whether any negatives of coming here outweigh the positives, but there is no reason right now to think it will ever even come to that. 


And this is the saddest part - questioning the culture of this board.

I realize I could just also leave if I don't like it here (while probably nobody will use the word anymore going forward, lol) but I hope everybody can see that I am this blunt because I actually care about this place. I also hope this is not verboten as well. But like I said, some things have to hurt. Nothing worth having comes easy, and that also includes having (or rather keeping) a great message board.

Even if nothing much changes (and it probably won’t), this is a great board! If I thought I could avoid being a perpetual fly in the ointment and still have a good time, I would 100% opt to stay here myself. It will still be my #1 recommendation to anyone who is looking for a place to talk about the Mavs. I’ll probably still check in to see what my favorite posters are saying now and then. Don’t leave now! In a couple of weeks most of this will be long forgotten, and you can choose an avenue based on how it’s going. 


Deciding whether it’s worth it to fit into someone else’s agenda is something everybody faces pretty much every day. It’s not just this discussion board. If the culture isn’t particularly affecting you in a negative way, stick around, if you can, and help make it an even better place!

Aargh, my heart hurts just thinking about all this. I'd better excuse myself.

[mavsluvr]

Contact info

For those who wanted to know how to reach me, I haven't yet decided what my next avocationary writing adventure is going to be. You can leave me a message here for however long they let me keep an account on the board. I'll check in periodically. 

If I decide to stick with doing Mavs stuff, I'll see what the avenue is at the next venue to let people know. I don't know if it would be considered kosher to announce that here, but if so, I'll do it. 

In the meantime, in case we can't reach each other at this site, I have a mavsluvr account at LMF, and I'll make sure to check in there, as well. 


Godspeed, my friends, 'til we meet again.

[fifteenth]

mavsluvr, I should take this thread down for your sake. You're incriminating yourself.

[mavsluvr]

mavsluvr, I should take this thread down for your sake. You're incriminating yourself.

lol, I don't know what that means, but it sounds profound

It has occurred to me more than once that this might be a candidate for the mods' most hated thread ever. I'm surprised it has lasted this long, even in the cave. Kudos to all you guys for letting people have their say.