IZTOK ON KIDD'S DEFENSIVE SYSTEM AND THE ROSTER

[fifteenth]

Why just Dirk?  Look at Kobe, MJ, Bron.  Their off-season work ethic is what has helped them become all time greats. Has even one of them ever come out of shape?

For sure. But I said "Dirk is our prototype" because we (many of us) followed him so closely for 2+ decades. My thought was the Dirk trained us (Mavs fans) on what to expect from our superstar.

[fifteenth]

And Luka would laugh and tell them the result they put in as a FO is not acceptable.

I don't have a problem with Luka talking to Mark, Nico, Jason, etc. about what he thinks about how the team is being run. He should! Players, especially the great ones, are partners in the NBA business at this point. My direct supervisor at work is one of our principles, and he is happy to get feedback from me. From what I've heard from Nico, I imagine he values feedback as well. 

But, I hope that your suggested response is NOT the way Luka would handle the situation. I would hope Luka would work together with Mavs staff as they attempt to help him maximize his career. And I hope that Luka would sit down and share his thoughts and feedback with Nico in a mature and professional manner, not in the immature, antogonistic way that you propose.

[Kammrath]

And Luka would laugh and tell them the result they put in as a FO is not acceptable.

Then Luka is even more juvenile than I have feared.

If you are a professional ATHLETE then being in shape and taking care of your body is the single most basic requirement and expectation for your job. Period.

[hakeemfaan]

I am not arguing that, but what do we want them to do that they aren't doing?

Also, this isn't to excuse Luka, but let's not pretend that all the highly paid players in the league keep themselves in pristine shape 365 day/year. Guys typically are in better shape, excluding injuries, after they have played for a while than they are on the first day of training camp. Yes, there are a few guys like LeBron, who devotes his life to keeping his body in top condition all the time. But getting better conditioned with training camp and playing is pretty much a way of life in the NBA. The guys mostly stay in shape, but not necessarily in peak shape, off season. Including the max players. Yes, it might be better if Luka had a LeBron-like obsession with his body. But he doesn't. So do the Mavs try to help him, or banish him from the team in disgust?

This is just not true. You are so off base here and now I see why there is a huge difference of opinion between a few of us. 

Kobe used to bulk up in the off season stating the the rigors of the season would cause some muscle loss and he was trying to counter that.  Many others keep themselves in very good shape.  The 70s and 80s are where people used to play themselves into shape. Those days are gone now in every sport. Tell me one high paying professional sports where fitness is not a year round thing? 

Also it seems very unlike you to make an immature comment about Bron’s obsession with his body. This is a guy who has been under a bigger microscope from a younger age than Luka and has always taken care of his body. It is not to be on a Mr Universe cover but to be the best player he can be. Plus that helped him play well on both ends of the court as well and look at the load this guy carried with all his playoff runs.  Whatever Bron’s other flaws, Luka can certainly learn about the correlation between fitness and performance from Bron.

[omahen]

But, I hope that your suggested response is NOT the way Luka would handle the situation. I would hope Luka would work together with Mavs staff as they attempt to help him maximize his career. And I hope that Luka would sit down and share his thoughts and feedback with Nico in a mature and professional manner, not in the immature, antogonistic way that you propose.

Please take the whole discussion into context. What Hakeemfan proposed was a threat from Dallas, not an offer to work together on an issue. I don't think Luka would respond like I wrote but I also think Mavs are not in a position to make any threats against Luka. Not the way they are handling their business. I also think any threats from their way would not be welcome and would be a step closer to separation.

[hakeemfaan]

Please take the whole discussion into context. What Hakeemfan proposed was a threat from Dallas, not an offer to work together on an issue. I don't think Luka would respond like I wrote but I also think Mavs are not in a position to make any threats against Luka. Not the way they are handling their business. I also think any threats from their way would not be welcome and would be a step closer to separation.

How is that a threat? It is a professional league. All employers have basic expectations from employees. For athletes it is to be in shape.

[omahen]

My point is - Mavs FO is the last who can take anyone accountable based on the results they are providing. They put themselves in a position where they can only be quiet and attend to every Luka need as they are doomed if he asks out. A position that is neither good for Luka nor them.

[omahen]

How is that a threat? It is a professional league. All employers have basic expectations from employees. For athletes it is to be in shape.

And if not? If Luka still doesn't come in shape*. There is absolutely nothing they can do to force him. This is why this approach is doomed and I think Mavslovr tried to put that nicely.

* I don't think Luka is out of shape. I think he came in prepared as well as he could based on summer he had. If anything we could discuss if playing for national team is wise. I think Luka will be fine and he is like number 276 of the problems Mavs have. I am sad so much time is spent discussing something so marginal

[michaeltex]

I just want to throw out that Luka hasn't had much of a break since the season re-start in 2020 between play in, playoffs, short offseason, compressed season, playoffs, Olympic qualifier, Olympics, then back to training camp and starting this season.

Has to have some effect, right?

[omahen]

Has to have some effect, right?

Nope, he is lazy and fat

[fifteenth]

Please take the whole discussion into context. What Hakeemfan proposed was a threat from Dallas, not an offer to work together on an issue. I don't think Luka would respond like I wrote but I also think Mavs are not in a position to make any threats against Luka. Not the way they are handling their business. I also think any threats from their way would not be welcome and would be a step closer to separation.

Huh. Maybe this is a language preference thing. I don't think of "that's unacceptable" as a threat. I mean, that's not the language I would use, but I don't think it's a threat. But, ok, I understand your response now.

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My point is - Mavs FO is the last who can take anyone accountable based on the results they are providing. They put themselves in a position where they can only be quiet and attend to every Luka need as they are doomed if he asks out. A position that is neither good for Luka nor them.

A front office can't operate this way

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I just want to throw out that Luka hasn't had much of a break since the season re-start in 2020 between play in, playoffs, short offseason, compressed season, playoffs, Olympic qualifier, Olympics, then back to training camp and starting this season.

Has to have some effect, right?

I think so. I've thought about this but haven't seen us discuss it much.

[hakeemfaan]

My point is - Mavs FO is the last who can take anyone accountable based on the results they are providing. They put themselves in a position where they can only be quiet and attend to every Luka need as they are doomed if he asks out. A position that is neither good for Luka nor them.

Of course I get that Luka has a lot of clout and the FO are more reliant on stars in the NBA than the stars are on the FO. Even an org that did everything right with a strong leadership was not able to make Bron stay in Miami. 

But that doesn’t excuse each from doing their best?  If you are fine with both blaming each other so as to not be the best they can be, then what is the point even watching the team?

[omahen]

I don't think of "that's unacceptable" as a threat. I mean, that's not the language I would use, but I don't think it's a threat. But, ok, I understand your response now.

I know I used a strong word and I did it intentionally. Using language like that would basically back Mavs in the corner. While it is not a threat as a direct meaning of the word, it basically has the same effect/result. Reaction to such a demand could not bring positive effect as they have zero actual power to force it. If Luka ignores it, the only thing they can do to remain any sign of authorithy is to punish him. Which would of course lead to him demanding a trade.

The only option Mavs have is to work with Luka and help him as much as they can

[ClutchDirk]

LeBron is a bad example due to the fact he shows up and demands all assets be used to get his preferred folks and bails when there are no more assets to keep up his legacy and looks for greener pastures...

[omahen]

I've thought about this but haven't seen us discuss it much.

I have mentioned it before, but if one decides to post 20 times per day Luka is fat and lazy, it somehow gets lost.

[fifteenth]

I know I used a strong word and I did it intentionally. Using language like that would basically back Mavs in the corner. While it is not a threat as a direct meaning of the word, it basically has the same effect/result. Reaction to such a demand could not bring positive effect as they have zero actual power to force it. If Luka ignores it, the only thing they can do to remain any sign of authorithy is to punish him. Which would of course lead to him demanding a trade.

The only option Mavs have is to work with Luka and help him as much as they can

"That's unacceptable" is just a statement. It's not a threat. And it's not even a demand. It's just a statement of fact.

I've had mentor/big brother types in my life who had the relationsihp with me where they could say something like that. I've benefited from good freinds telling me the truth.

[fifteenth]

I have mentioned it before, but if one decides to post 20 times per day Luka is fat and lazy, it somehow gets lost.

I don't see people posting "Luka is fat and lazy" 20 times per day. In fact, what I see, is discussion taking place about our superstar and how he should conduct his business. In my mind, that is fair game for a discussion board. 

I want Luka to have a 20 year career and put himself in the discussion of top 3 player of all time. If he's doing something that could hinder that, then I think it's fair to discuss it.

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@"omahen", in fact, a good bit of the discussion about Luka's conditioning and weight is actually responses to hyperbole like....

but if one decides to post 20 times per day Luka is fat and lazy, it somehow gets lost

[mavsluvr]

More response? I'm on my lunch break, so I'm your huckleberry!




As posters, I guess we continue to share our thoughts with each other. I'm a big believer that part of the way we humas make progress is via healthy discussion. 




I'd say "no" to fining or banishing him. I have no idea what it takers to "get through to him". Usually helping folks reach their goals and dreams requires relationsihp. So I hope that the Mavs are building great relationships, speaking the truth in love and offering practical action items while having realistic expectations that they're in this for the long haul and that Luka, at 22, might not be able to do a 180 degree turn over night. 




If they're working with him on diet and conditioning, then I'm not sure what else they can do. HOW they work with Luka is probably key. And we don't know much about that. I hope they're bringing a good mix of encouragement, motivation and practical expertise to the table. 

I do think we shouldn't confuse what the Mavs should do with what a message board should do. Message board discussions happen over days, weeks, months and years. Comments from posters that seem over the top often result in great responses that bring more nuance to the discussion and round off some of the rough edges of the "over the top" posts. Posts that push the discussion to more extremes can often offer something to the discussion that the more "reasonable" posts don't offer. It appears to me that our discussion about Luka has a trajectory and that all the different perspectives are mixing together to create a fairly robust conversation. Ultimately none of us can do anything for Luka except talk about him. 




It doesn't. So we talk about Luka. And we talk about all the other stuff. Fortunately, the Mavs problems are manifold and multifaceted so that we have plenty to talk about! :-) 



I hope that's true and that they do a good job coaching the youngster up!


My concern about Luka's conditioning and his carrying extra weight has a little to do with how he plays, be even more to do with being greedy, and wanting another 20 year superstar career. That might just be me. 


Yes, for sure! Completely agree!!! I don't think the forum thinks Luka's conditioning is the only problem that needs to be fixed. And if the F.O. thinks that Luka's conditioning is the only problem that needs to be fixed, then we better go ahead and find the next front office!

Thanks for all the responses, fif. Good answers!

[hakeemfaan]

My question why are people getting upset that something like this is mentioned?  It is obviously an issue and a big issue given that teams in the NBA are over reliant on their transcendent stars. The Mavs even more so. Being in shape is a minimum requirement for athletes. 

We can ignore that and blame the FO and coaching.  The last two are new here but they will be criticized. 

We can ignore the FO and Coach and just blame Luka. 

I don’t see most doing either of the above. Most are just saying both sides need to be professional in their approach if the team is to get to where we all want them to eventually.

[mavsluvr]

@"mavsluvr", regarding diet, dedication to conditioning and longevity, do you know what OUR (mavsboard) problem is? 

Dirk is our prototype.

I think there is a lot to this. 

And even Dirk has been known to show up out of shape.