IZTOK ON KIDD'S DEFENSIVE SYSTEM AND THE ROSTER

[SleepingHero]

According to NBA.com´s tracking Luka leads the league in drawn double teams. On a percentage of possessions base and also in total per game. Mavs scoring effciency on those plays is mediocre.

I think another overlooked fact here is how exhausting it is fighting through double teams every possession. 

Seems clear to me the book on the Mavs is quite simple. 1. Go small and run. 2. Double team Luka because no one else will ever beat you. And 3. wear Luka down because he doesn't have the stamina to play well on both ends for 35mpg. 

I think problems 1 and 3 are relatively easy to fix if Kidd were to just play KP at the 5 and if Luka were to take his conditioning more seriously. Though that's a nitpick. Because if we solved problem 2, then problem 3 also gets solved. 

Gotta make a trade desperately. Need a CJ McCollum/Gordon Hayward type that can reliably be a secondary ball handler and a good enough scorer where teams can't just say "we're fine playing 4v3 because we don't respect 2 of the guys you have on the court"

[michaeltex]

Heres what I think:  I think posters are looking for reasons to bitch.  I dont think Luka is anywhere near a sloth/dangerously out of shape.  I agree that Luka should look into a professional diet...but I dont care if that makes him lose weight or not.   I agree that a lighter Luka would maybe help his reactions and movement on defense...but is the give and take him being less effective in the paint on offense or securing less rebounds because he is getting bodied?  I dont know.  What I do know is...constantly complaining about Luka's weight is a waste of time.  Hes fine

I might add that Luka's game, even his drives to the basket, are never and have never been at lightning speed. In fact his playing pace has been commmented on many times. Something to the tune of "Luka never gets hurried, but is amazingly effective doing it at his pace" implying that he operates slower than many PG contemporaries. But he's not and never has been a typical PG. Instead he's this amalgam of size, dexterity and vision that is unique. 


Instead of focusing on his weight, maybe the focus should be on getting teammates to hit shots to keep defenses honest and reduce the double teams he sees. If that happens, then all the talk about his conditioning, weight, +/-, etc. goes away and we get back to enjoying one of the generational talents in the league.

FWIW, look at the 2006 Finals. Apart from the DWade calls, MIA was running everybody at Dirk to take the ball out of his hands and make someone else beat them. Contrast to 2011 and JET/Marion/DSteve/Chandler proved to MIA that they couldn't be ignored and kept the defense honest and allowed DAL and Dirk to do their thing.

[fifteenth]

Wow, great thread. Seems like with Iztok's help we're getting closer to the mark in understanding the poor play.

@"mavsluvr", thanks for the summary and great thread starter!

Here's my question: does the fact that the team has executed the new schemes well against poor teams (at times) suggest that the team is on a learning curve and may get to where they are executing against good teams? Or, is it more probable that they don't have the personnel to get to that point where they execute the system well against good teams?

I have more questions:

Is JKidd's vision worth attempting with this roster? 

Would it be better to design a system for this roster and then move towards the new system once the personnel is in place? 

Or is forcing this roster into this system the way to find out who to keep and who to trade or let go?

If some players shooting has tanked because they're expending more energy on defense, shouldn't Bullock be one of the few players made for this system, one who has made a career of shooting well while expending energy on defense?

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Instead of focusing on his weight, maybe the focus should be on getting teammates to hit shots to keep defenses honest and reduce the double teams he sees.

Are these things, presented as a dichotomy, even related?

[Kammrath]

Is JKidd's vision worth attempting with this roster?

Nico will determine that.

The more we see Kidd continue to press a particular direction and not change things up, the more certain I am that trades are coming.

[fifteenth]

Nico will determine that.

The more we see Kidd continue to press a particular direction and not change things up, the more certain I am that trades are coming.

For sure. However, since Nico doesn't post here, and I have to ask you guys my questions. :-)

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HEY MODS, or other smart people...I accidentally subscribed to this thread. I don't even know how I did it. How do I unsubscribe? It's filling my inbox with silly notificaitons!

[Kammrath]

HEY MODS, or other smart people...I accidentally subscribed to this thread. I don't even know how I did it. How do I unsubscribe? It's filling my inbox with silly notificaitons!

For me its in the bottom left right above "Users browsing this thread"

[fifteenth]

For me its in the bottom left right above "Users browsing this thread"

[mavsluvr]

mavsluvr. If the team or FO is indeed telling him that there is no issue with his weight, then they are enabling him.  All of us saw he was out of shape to begin the season last year and this.  That is not shaming someone. That is a minimum expectation from even someone decorating the end of the bench let alone someone who is a franchise player on a max contract.    If you feel that is shaming or no concern, we just disagree on that. No probs. 

There has to be some balance between the weight that Luka is comfortable playing at and being in shape. No one is asking him to be cut or skinny. 

Back to the topic of defense, while Luka has to do his part, the coaching staff has to find schemes that protect their stars as much as possible. No disagreements there.

Okay. Regarding Luka and his conditioning, I think we should all listen carefully to what we are being told. 

Which is -- The Mavs know that Luka is not in peak condition. They are working with him on diet and exercise to get him where he needs to be. He is playing himself into shape, as he usually does, and is progressing as usual. He is able to play all his minutes without getting out of breath, even when he is not in peak condition. They think he and they are on the right track, that he will be in peak shape in due time, and that imposing sanctions on him at this point is not going to accomplish anything, and it might make things worse.  

What is it, exactly, that we want them to do that they aren't doing? Help me understand that. 

One thing I do see being proposed is more a matter of training strategy than conditioning. There are fans who think the team would benefit substantially if Luka lost a lot of weight. He would be faster and more agile. The Mavs think he would also be smaller and weaker. And that being super-fast and agile are not critical parts of his game, but being big and strong and able to play a power game are. 

Let's say the Mavs decide they are wrong, and they reverse course. They send Luka off to Fat Man's Camp, and he comes back thirty pounds lighter. He starts playing again. The role players are still bricking threes. Dwight Powell still can't protect the rim. Kidd is still running a system the players can't execute. Brunson hasn't grown any taller. Willie is still erratic and unpredictable. The roster still has giant holes in the shapes of a playmaker, a mobile rim protector, and a game-changing defender. Nico still doesn't have even a season of experience as a GM. Cuban hasn't advanced his thinking any. Josh Green still hasn't been able to crack the rotation. Luka can jump 1/4" higher, and run down the floor .02 seconds faster, so the program must have worked. But they still look like the same old team. 

Luka lost thirty pounds, and he still didn't solve any of those problems! Who could have predicted? Bad Luka!! 

I am also willing to listen carefully to other views. Specifically, what should the Mavs and Luka be doing that they aren't? And, if Luka did lose weight, do we think that is impactful enough that it would render the organization/roster's other problems moot? If so, what causes us to think so? 

Is there any chance that the Mavs are right about him getting into shape but still keeping his weight up? If not, what can be done about their getting some better advice?

[vfromlmf]

Weight and conditioning are two different things. Luka's conditioning may not be a huge issue but he would be better if he stayed in shape versus playing his way into shape.

[mavsluvr]

Weight and conditioning are two different things. Luka's conditioning may not be a huge issue but he would be better if he stayed in shape versus playing his way into shape.

I am not arguing that, but what do we want them to do that they aren't doing?

Also, this isn't to excuse Luka, but let's not pretend that all the highly paid players in the league keep themselves in pristine shape 365 day/year. Guys typically are in better shape, excluding injuries, after they have played for a while than they are on the first day of training camp. Yes, there are a few guys like LeBron, who devotes his life to keeping his body in top condition all the time. But getting better conditioned with training camp and playing is pretty much a way of life in the NBA. The guys mostly stay in shape, but not necessarily in peak shape, off season. Including the max players. Yes, it might be better if Luka had a LeBron-like obsession with his body. But he doesn't. So do the Mavs try to help him, or banish him from the team in disgust?

[Kammrath]

There are fans who think the team would benefit substantially if Luka lost a lot of weight. He would be faster and more agile. The Mavs think he would also be smaller and weaker.

Correct, the Mavs don't want Luka at a lower weight, but I would bet a lot of money they would prefer the weight he is at to be muscle weight and NOT fat weight. 


The issue with Luka from my seat:

1) He is not out of breath. Don't see anyone claiming he is on here. 

2) He is a step (or two) slower than two years ago (his dunks and shots at the rim are at a career, four year low which should not be the case for a 22 year old). I do not think that is because of extra weight, but because of extra fat (and also some due to current team spacing and struggles). 

3) Luka needs to be strong (that is a key and essential part of his game) and that requires muscle (not fat). And when his weight is all "good weight" he will ALSO be his quickest self. 

So for me this is about the kind of weight he is carrying. Luka needs to be strong and his current weight may be the perfect size for him. But he needs that weight to be muscle for maximum strength, quickness, explosiveness, and durability.

[fifteenth]

@"mavsluvr", I just think 

1) Luka should start the season in shape because I think being put of shape and carrying extra weight can lead to injury and a.shorter prime;

2) I'm not sure what the Mavs can do other than coach and encourage him to do the right thing for the sake of his career;

3) I don't believe that extra weight from fat makes one stronger,.though it can make one harder to move, which could be beneficial. But I don't think many (here, at least) are advocating for Luka to lose a lot of weight. "Be in shape and lose the extra weight" doesn't have to mean "lose a lot of weight". He was hard to move last season, and he was carrying less extra weight.

[michaeltex]

Are these things, presented as a dichotomy, even related?

Due to the lack of team success, there is a contingent focusing on making changes to Luka, with some validity.


The point is, if his teammates perform up to expectations, then nobody is talking about how Luka urgently needs to make changes as it MUST be a key to future success.

Teammate performance doesn't directly affect Luka's condition, but it does affect the perception and assumptions about it. If the team was 15-5 and a top 10 offense, nobody's really worried about how much Luka weighs. The assumption is that he will get to his proper playing weight in time to be playoff effective. But that also assumes that getting him in better shape equates to better team performance.

[Kammrath]

1) Luka should start the season in shape because I think it being put of shape and carrying extra weight can lead to injury and a.shorter prime;

2) I'm not sure what the Mavs can do other than coach and encourage him to do the right thing for the sake of his career;

3) I don't believe that extra weight from fat makes one stronger,.though it can make one harder to move, which could be beneficial. But I don't think many (here, at least) are advocating for Luka to lose a lot of weight. "Be in shape and lose the extra weight" doesn't have to mean "lose a lot of weight". He was hard to move last season, and he was carrying less extra weight.

[fifteenth]

Due to the lack of team success, there is a contingent focusing on making changes to Luka, with some validity.


The point is, if his teammates perform up to expectations, then nobody is talking about how Luka urgently needs to make changes as it MUST be a key to future success.

Teammate performance doesn't directly affect Luka's condition, but it does affect the perception and assumptions about it. If the team was 15-5 and a top 10 offense, nobody's really worried about how much Luka weighs. The assumption is that he will get to his proper playing weight in time to be playoff effective. But that also assumes that getting him in better shape equates to better team performance.

A month ago the Mavs had a good record and were playing much better defense and we were still commenting on Luka being out of shape and not playing up to his standards.

[mavsluvr]

@"mavsluvr", I just think 

1) Luka should start the season in shape because I think it being put of shape and carrying extra weight can lead to injury and a.shorter prime;

2) I'm not sure what the Mavs can do other than coach and encourage him to do the right thing for the sake of his career;

3) I don't believe that extra weight from fat makes one stronger,.though it can make one harder to move, which could be beneficial. But I don't think many (here, at least) are advocating for Luka to lose a lot of weight. "Be in shape and lose the extra weight" doesn't have to mean "lose a lot of weight". He was hard to move last season, and he was carrying less extra weight.

I must not be asking my questions very well, because I don't seem to be getting much in the way of response. (Thank you for your answer #2, which was a response.)

I am not arguing with you about your positions. Yes, it would have been better if Luka had come into camp already in shape. But he didn't, so where do we go from here? Do they help him try to get in shape, and/or do they fine him or suspend him or banish him from the team? Are we saying that's what it takes to get through to him? 

If he is carrying extra weight from fat, that's not a good thing, and I am glad that they are working together on diet/exercise/conditioning. I hope that he reaches their mutual goal. Is there something else that should be happening? 

Luka should get himself in top condition. He would probably play a little better. But how does that solve, or even paper over, the Mavs' apparent collapse from so many angles? Tbh, what I perceive is that (1) the problem has been acknowledged and is being addressed by the player and the team, and (2) Luka's elimination of a little extra body fat is not going to do much to change the fortunes of this ailing organization, and (3) I hope that the coaching staff/front office/owner don't think that Luka's conditioning is the only or the major thing that needs addressing to salvage this season and the time they have with this generational talent on their roster.

[fifteenth]

More response? I'm on my lunch break, so I'm your huckleberry!

Yes, it would have been better if Luka had come into camp already in shape. But he didn't, so where do we go from here?

As posters, I guess we continue to share our thoughts with each other. I'm a big believer that part of the way we humas make progress is via healthy discussion. 

Do they help him try to get in shape, and/or do they fine him or suspend him or banish him from the team? Are we saying that's what it takes to get through to him? 

I'd say "no" to fining or banishing him. I have no idea what it takers to "get through to him". Usually helping folks reach their goals and dreams requires relationsihp. So I hope that the Mavs are building great relationships, speaking the truth in love and offering practical action items while having realistic expectations that they're in this for the long haul and that Luka, at 22, might not be able to do a 180 degree turn over night. 

If he is carrying extra weight from fat, that's not a good thing, and I am glad that they are working together on diet/exercise/conditioning. I hope that he reaches their mutual goal. Is there something else that should be happening? 

If they're working with him on diet and conditioning, then I'm not sure what else they can do. HOW they work with Luka is probably key. And we don't know much about that. I hope they're bringing a good mix of encouragement, motivation and practical expertise to the table. 

I do think we shouldn't confuse what the Mavs should do with what a message board should do. Message board discussions happen over days, weeks, months and years. Comments from posters that seem over the top often result in great responses that bring more nuance to the discussion and round off some of the rough edges of the "over the top" posts. Posts that push the discussion to more extremes can often offer something to the discussion that the more "reasonable" posts don't offer. It appears to me that our discussion about Luka has a trajectory and that all the different perspectives are mixing together to create a fairly robust conversation. Ultimately none of us can do anything for Luka except talk about him. 

But how does that solve, or even paper over, the Mavs' apparent collapse from so many angles?

It doesn't. So we talk about Luka. And we talk about all the other stuff. Fortunately, the Mavs problems are manifold and multifaceted so that we have plenty to talk about! :-) 

1) the problem has been acknowledged and is being addressed by the player and the team

I hope that's true and that they do a good job coaching the youngster up!

(2) Luka's elimination of a little extra body fat is not going to do much to change the fortunes of this ailing organization

My concern about Luka's conditioning and his carrying extra weight has a little to do with how he plays, be even more to do with being greedy, and wanting another 20 year superstar career. That might just be me. 

(3) I hope that the coaching staff/front office/owner don't think that Luka's conditioning is the only or the major thing that needs addressing to salvage this season and the time they have with this generational talent on their roster.

Yes, for sure! Completely agree!!! I don't think the forum thinks Luka's conditioning is the only problem that needs to be fixed. And if the F.O. thinks that Luka's conditioning is the only problem that needs to be fixed, then we better go ahead and find the next front office!

[fifteenth]

@"mavsluvr", regarding diet, dedication to conditioning and longevity, do you know what OUR (mavsboard) problem is? 

Dirk is our prototype.

[hakeemfaan]

mavsluvr:  You asked me a question as to what the Mavs are supposed to do 

The answer is make it clear to Luka that coming out of shape and playing himself into shape during the season is not acceptable. 


It’s a very simple ask and I am not sure why you are puzzled as to what they should do here.

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@"mavsluvr", regarding diet, dedication to conditioning and longevity, do you know what OUR (mavsboard) problem is? 

Dirk is our prototype.

Why just Dirk?  Look at Kobe, MJ, Bron.  Their off-season work ethic is what has helped them become all time greats. Has even one of them ever come out of shape?

[omahen]

You asked me a question as to what the Mavs are supposed to do 

The answer is make it clear to Luka that coming out of shape and playing himself into shape during the season is not acceptable. 

And Luka would laugh and tell them the result they put in as a FO is not acceptable.