Here's what the team would look like....

[Mavs2021]

I have always felt that this type of an argument is a bit incomplete. 

Can the Mavs win a lot of games without Luka and only KP?  Can the Mavs win a lot of games without KP and only Luka?  Yes to both but IF only we replace one of them with at least a somewhat comparable player. The Bulls almost won a title without MJ. That is because they added Kukoc, another terrific player. 

The real question is can you win a title without one of Luka or KP even if you replace one of them with a very good player?  The answr there IMO is you can without KP but not without Luka.  KP is not a transcendent talent. His only shot that I have relative confidence of going in is a logo 3 pt shot. On the defensive end he blows hot and cold.  So overall he is a one dimensional offensive player whose one dimension is a playground shot, while he cannot be counted on defense night in/ night out.  He is athletic for his height and can get some rim rockers on nights that he plays hard and on those nights he is a tough cover for defenses. However overall I would only put him as an above average NBA player if his defense is lagging.

But Kukoc was a far better player than Porzingis will ever be.

[dirkfansince1998]

I just don´t understand why one game without both Luka and KP is an indicator for the future of a KPless Mavs team. Due to KPs injury problems we have a really big sample size that contradicts the prediction.

18 missed games in 19/29: 11-7 record
29 missed games in 20/21: 16-13 record

This season the Mavs are 3-4 without KP (3-3 when Luka played).

At no point in the last three years did the Mavs fall apart without KP. Him being available or not basically had no impact on the record.

[TXBamanut]

I keep wondering how you think Davis Bertans and Thomas Bryant and late 1st or 2nd, if they could get that in the off season, makes the Mavs better?

It's pretty simple actually. It's a safe bet that the Mavs could have gotten several of the players you mentioned in the last off season without trading KP, who was at an all time low in trade value... And it's easy to see when you run Luka in the ground because he's your only option.

You say "they've never fallen apart without KP"... Besides the fact that everyone thought with KP they were going to beat the Clippers in the playoffs the first year and they lost when he got hurt and the last playoffs with him hurt and playing decoy that they couldn't beat them, you trading for a bunch of guys that you hope will outplay their rep (because why would ANYONE trade anyone of current value for KP if he's as terrible a you say and where his value was last off season.... Which IS this whole conversation...) How this would have gone down last off season and how the Mavs would look now, which is current and valid, no matter how you try to drag my original comment into some stratosphere that you think it appears more successful.

No one says the front office didn't make roster construction failures, that's a given, but the point is just freaking out and doing another unwise move, just to make a move, is ridiculous and won't make it better.

That Grizz game is where you would be right now, and instead of what we look like when KP and Luka are out, that's what it would look like when Luka was hurt and no one you could have gotten last off season would make a difference there.  I also don't think it would bode well for Luka staying through it.  To me, it was asinine to not keep KP and try to get his value up for any hope.  That's my opinion.

[hakeemfaan]

But Kukoc was a far better player than Porzingis will ever be.

That’s missing my point.  I never compared KP to Kukoc. Kukoc was being compared to MJ and if he could at least replace some of the things MJ provided in his absence.  

I am trying to say you can’t just say we can’t win without someone without at least having some sort of a comparable entity. If you are replacing KP with Maxi then you won’t win. If you replace KP with CJ you might be even better. Heck can someone confidently claim this team wouldn’t be better with Baynes if KP can’t bring defense every night?  

As I said the real question should be what  would the interest be for KP if he were an UFA and wanted the same salary. IMO there wouldn’t be much interest. That should tell you where to correctly place him.

[dirkfansince1998]

I keep wondering how you think Davis Bertans and Thomas Bryant and late 1st or 2nd, if they could get that in the off season, makes the Mavs better?

It's pretty simple actually. It's a safe bet that the Mavs could have gotten several of the players you mentioned in the last off season without trading KP, who was at an all time low in trade value... And it's easy to see when you run Luka in the ground because he's your only option.

You say "they've never fallen apart without KP"... Besides the fact that everyone thought with KP they were going to beat the Clippers in the playoffs the first year and they lost when he got hurt and the last playoffs with him hurt and playing decoy that they couldn't beat them, you trading for a bunch of guys that you hope will outplay their rep (because why would ANYONE trade anyone of current value for KP if he's as terrible a you say and where his value was last off season.... Which IS this whole conversation...) How this would have gone down last off season and how the Mavs would look now, which is current and valid, no matter how you try to drag my original comment into some stratosphere that you think it appears more successful.

No one says the front office didn't make roster construction failures, that's a given, but the point is just freaking out and doing another unwise move, just to make a move, is ridiculous and won't make it better.

That Grizz game is where you would be right now, and instead of what we look like when KP and Luka are out, that's what it would look like when Luka was hurt and no one you could have gotten last off season would make a difference there.  I also don't think it would bode well for Luka staying through it.  To me, it was asinine to not keep KP and try to get his value up for any hope.  That's my opinion.

Anything else to offer outside of a strawman. You are the only one in this thread that offered the mentioned names. But just to entertain your idea. Bertans makes half of KPs salary. Bryant expires. Pick could have been this years Wizards 1st or a future asset. In my opinion still the better longterm solution compared to KP on a max.

Do you really not see the difference. We have more than half a season worth of games to show that the team isn´t depending on KP. They performed just as good without any one to replace him. Why would they be worse even if the replacement isn´t a big name or just a young player (pick). The Mavs performed just as good with KP being nothing else but dead salary.
Him getting injured or playing like dog shit in the playoffs is not a positive. No matter how you are trying to spin it. If you want to make the case for the playoffs I could easily make a similar case. Replace KP with an average NBA player that can stay healthy and the Mavs win both series. Baseless prediction. Just like yours. No way to prove/disprove it.

Now you have changed the argument. The Grizz game is where the Mavs would be without Luka and KP. Not just without KP. Mavs are 0-4 without Luka this season. 2-4 last season. 7-7 in 19/20. Sample size isn´t nearly as big but the numbers suggest that the team performs worse without Luka. KP playing or not hasn´t changed that.

[cow]

IMO we are overrating KP based on some things that he can do pretty well for his height, but he is just and above average NBA player. Unicorn? Definitely not.

My thoughts too.  The bigger problem is depending on him because Luka's going to get dinged up too and if/when Luka has to miss an extended period of time, there is really good chance that KP is going to miss some of those games too.

[bodhisattva]

This thread is pointless. Its basically one guy arguing to keep KP and everybody else screaming that we would still be better off with pretty much any NBA center that is not on Mavs roster.

Mavs have been load managing and raising his value for 3 years now, although he was supposed to go hard from the start and 3 years later it feels like Mavs are still rehabilitating his injury.
I mean its the classic case of a bird in the hand is better than two in bush. If he cant play 50% of the time whats the point? I would rather have a player who, in theory, is worse than KP, but can play.

And as far as his trade value goes I am pretty sure secret got out a long time ago. I bet he is worth even less, that many of you on this forum hope. As I said before, give me two solid players in range of starting 5 or 6th man quality and KP is gone in a second in my book.

AND THIS TEAM WOULD BE BETTER OFF. GUARANTEED.
Hell give me Ried, Beasley and Beverly from Timberwolves. Terrible trade, but I am pretty sure Mavs would still be better off. Sad, but it is what it is. This is where I am.

[KillerLeft]

If he cant play 50% of the time whats the point? I would rather have a player who, in theory, is worse than KP, but can play.

This is objectively true, and doesn't depend in any way on the outcome of our two year war over whether KP can even be a winning player when healthy.

[TXBamanut]

This thread is pointless. Its basically one guy arguing to keep KP and everybody else screaming that we would still be better off with pretty much any NBA center that is not on Mavs roster.

Mavs have been load managing and raising his value for 3 years now, although he was supposed to go hard from the start and 3 years later it feels like Mavs are still rehabilitating his injury.
I mean its the classic case of a bird in the hand is better than two in bush. If he cant play 50% of the time whats the point? I would rather have a player who, in theory, is worse than KP, but can play.

And as far as his trade value goes I am pretty sure secret got out a long time ago. I bet he is worth even less, that many of you on this forum hope. As I said before, give me two solid players in range of starting 5 or 6th man quality and KP is gone in a second in my book.

AND THIS TEAM WOULD BE BETTER OFF. GUARANTEED.
Hell give me Ried, Beasley and Beverly from Timberwolves. Terrible trade, but I am pretty sure Mavs would still be better off. Sad, but it is what it is. This is where I am.

Obviously your reading comprehension is off.  I never said simply keep KP.  I said specifically in response to a debate in the off-season why we should not have traded KP in last off season.  98 keeps trying to move the argument, because he can't defend his position which was blow it up right now and get rid of KP -- of course, I am guessing at that because he chose to argue against my premise and for the position that we should have traded KP last off-season...since that's the opposite of my premise.)

Big difference in what you said.

[bodhisattva]

This is objectively true, and doesn't depend in any way on the outcome our two year war over whether KP can even be a winning player when healthy.

I gave up on that idea. I mean you can consider him a winning player. He can put up 30/10. The problem is he will do this one game and not play next. In this case i would rather have Wood/Holmes/Portis putting up 10/10 every night. For me this debate is finished.

Obviously your reading comprehension is off.  I never said simply keep KP.  I said specifically in response to a debate in the off-season why we should not have traded KP in last off season.  98 keeps trying to move the argument, because he can't defend his position which was blow it up right now and get rid of KP -- of course, I am guessing at that because he chose to argue against my premise and for the position that we should have traded KP last off-season...since that's the opposite of my premise.)

Big difference in what you said.

My apologies, it wasnt meant as an attack, just debating. We all support the same team here.
Since you clarified, I would add that I still disagree with your opinion. I dont think KPs value changed that much. Best chance to trade him was about a year ago, when Collins was unhappy in Atlanta. I feel that would be a robbery if there really was any chance there...But even I was on keep KP bus at that time, so even I would have not traded him then, so cant really be a smart ass about it now.
Point is....you are arguing that by playing him we will increase trade value and trade him for let say Wood and Gordon? I think most of us would be happy with trade.
See i believe that ship is long sailed, and his value is way less than that and will never be that high, at least on this contract. And situation has been like that at the end of last season,has not and will not change. It has nothing to do with his play, or stats but the fact that he cant play 50% of the time.
Only way I can see this changing is if he suddenly starts playing regular games and putting up all star numbers.
Do any of you see this happening based on the last 2 years? I dont.
Basically the sooner he goes, the sooner Mavs can "rebuild". I am not saying give him away for free, but whoever expects CJ McCollum in return is crazy in my book.

[dirkfansince1998]

Obviously your reading comprehension is off.  I never said simply keep KP.  I said specifically in response to a debate in the off-season why we should not have traded KP in last off season.  98 keeps trying to move the argument, because he can't defend his position which was blow it up right now and get rid of KP -- of course, I am guessing at that because he chose to argue against my premise and for the position that we should have traded KP last off-season...since that's the opposite of my premise.)

Big difference in what you said.

You made baseless claims about the Mavs performance without KP. I countered with objective numbers. You told me why those numbers don´t matter.
You are right. I cannot defend or attack any of your takes because there is no way to prove/disprove them.  Seems to be the new reality on social media or community boards. Present a feeling/opinion as fact. Ignore the evidence. Take a victory lab. Brilliant. That´s what leads to high quality discussions.

To clarify my position. The Mavs should have traded KP at the deadline last season. Should have traded him in the offseason. Should trade him right now. At this point I don´t think it will happen but just like @"bodhisattva" said. Mavs are three years into this mess. Waiting for him to recover from injuries or to recover some of his value. I guess we can wait for his contract to expire. That might be the best value he will ever have. Expiring max in february 2024.
Or is there some point before that date where you would be willing to part ways with KP even if his value stays as low as it is right now (probably negative). How much longer are the Mavs supposed to wait for him to recover his value? He could always have more value in the future. He could also have less. That´s another baseless prediciton.

[TXBamanut]

You made baseless claims about the Mavs performance without KP. I countered with objective numbers. You told me why those numbers don´t matter.
You are right. I cannot defend or attack any of your takes because there is no way to prove/disprove them.  Seems to be the new reality on social media or community boards. Present a feeling/opinion as fact. Ignore the evidence. Take a victory lab. Brilliant. That´s what leads to high quality discussions.

To clarify my position. The Mavs should have traded KP at the deadline last season. Should have traded him in the offseason. Should trade him right now. At this point I don´t think it will happen but just like @"bodhisattva" said. Mavs are three years into this mess. Waiting for him to recover from injuries or to recover some of his value. I guess we can wait for his contract to expire. That might be the best value he will ever have. Expiring max in february 2024.
Or is there some point before that date where you would be willing to part ways with KP even if his value stays as low as it is right now (probably negative). How much longer are the Mavs supposed to wait for him to recover his value? He could always have more value in the future. He could also have less. That´s another baseless prediciton.

Oh bull crap on all that.  Not worth my time to answer.  "baseless claims" yet IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII countered with objective numbers.  Oh please.  You are so easy to draw offsides.

Objective doesn't mean extremely biased and unwilling to see any other perspective but your own.  They shouldn't have traded him for a bag of chips in the off season.  You are hilarious.

[dirkfansince1998]

Oh bull crap on all that.  Not worth my time to answer.  "baseless claims" yet IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII countered with objective numbers.  Oh please.  You are so easy to draw offsides.

Objective doesn't mean extremely biased and unwilling to see any other perspective but your own.  They shouldn't have traded him for a bag of chips in the off season.  You are hilarious.

Mockery. Not suprising because you have offered nothing else in this thread. How is the record without KP not objective. Can I fake or manipulate those numbers. Feel free to interpretate them anyway you want. The numbers exist. Maybe not in your personal reality but in the real world. The numbers itself are objective. My opinion obviously isn´t. You could have answered with your own explanation for those numbers.

Your take was that if the Mavs would have traded KP the Grizzlies game would be the best case every night. We have 50+ games with a winning record an no kind of replacement (KP as dead salary) to contradict that claim. Even this season the Mavs already won three games without him. Or was your take just ridiculous hyperbole?

What about the take on KPs increasing trade value. It might increase. It might not. There really is no way for us to tell. But for some reason you are quick to assume the worst possible outcome for non KP scenarios. And the best possible for KP staying in Dallas scenarios. I asked one question. Is there a point where you would trade KP even if his value doesn´t increase or is this an infinite excuse that will always apply?

As I stated. There really is no way to argue in favor or against your take. I know it. I believe it. Therefore it is. And whoever disagrees is wrong. Great discussion culture. You are a genius. No one will ever be able to as you stated "defend his position" in a conversation like this. You are going to "win" a lot of debates in the future. Up until the day where you might realize that there never was a debate. It was an endless monologue because you refused to engage anyone that dared to question your opinion.

[Scott41theMavs]

The real question is: for what could the Mavs trade Luka?

Whut? Who on this board or in the Mavs' front office would want to nuke the franchise like that?

[SleepingHero]

Whut? Who on this board or in the Mavs' front office would want to nuke the franchise like that?

Someone that really wants to go back to square one and give up a guy that can be a top 10 player of all time.