Here's what the team would look like....

[TXBamanut]

..if you traded KP for a bag of magic beans (projects and draft picks) like many folks wanted to this offseason.  The Grizzlies game would be the best case every night.

Then IF you hit on the draft pick (hopefully the #1 pick that the MAVS have NEVER gotten, no matter how terrible their record, in the history of the NBA), you'd have to hit on the player and then wait for 2-3 years for him to become viable...and then, are you cool with where Luka would be then?   Either worn down from getting hte Michael Finley treatment because we don't have anything else or pissed off and ready to leave when his contract is up...

And here's the kicker...there is no guarantee that any of those measures you hoped would save you or would bring out of the H-E-double hockey sticks you are in as a franchise.  You would be making less money as a team, be LESS of a destination than you were, and the return to the 90s might be closer than you think.

It looks bad now, but we are in a better place now, than if we would have traded KP this summer.  Even with the injury, his trade value is more now than it was then.

Don't let your money get mad, Mavs Twitter.  As bad as it is, it can get worse if you just freak out and do something out of anger and frustration.  Of course, it doesn't seem so far that Mark will do anything...I admit, but December 15 is in 10 days, adn I hope that seeing JKidd's frustration, his experimentation and Nico's reputation as a smart guy, something may happen that helps.   I hate waiting, but the alternative of just blowing it up to blow it up is worse.

[dirkfansince1998]

Bold statement. But no way to prove it one way or the other. Because we will never know what the Mavs would have gotten in return. What they would have done with potential capspace. The case that the Mavs would have added Ball/DeRozan/Caruso instead of KP and THJ and would be dominating the league is just as likely (unlikely).
Maybe the Mavs would be way worse without KP. Maybe they would be a lot better. Only thing we know is that the current roster (including KP as a max player) is struggling.

[TXBamanut]

Bold statement. But no way to prove it. Because we will never know what the Mavs would have gotten in return. What they would have done with potential capspace. The case that the Mavs would have added Ball/DeRozan/Caruso instead of KP and THJ and would be dominating the league is just as likely (unlikely).

I don't think it's that bold of a statement at all.  Bertans and Thomas Bryant was one package...you think that changes anything?  They had capspace, and if you want someone to sign, they aren't coming here for an even worse team?  We've been banking on cap space and free agents for 10 years...and we've gotten "Chandler Parsons"...yay...........

As far as KP, there was way less buzz about his ability in the off season than there is now, both internally and externally...that's obvious.

They could have added Ball (depends on the tampering thing strongly here more than cap space or KP) and/or Derozan and/or Caruso AND had KP and THJ or just KP this last off-season, so that's kind of a red herring there...since that scenario existed and they could have.

[cow]

There is no way to make the Mavs less of a free agent destination because they are already at the bottom of the barrel.  

 Zero chance Ball had interest in being here.  DeRozan I'm less sure on but If I had to guess, I'd lean towards no.  Give Caruso the Bullock Contract minus the partial gaurentee and I think he was a realistic get.  

I get the argument about not being able to upgrade KP or THJ so that's why we needed to keep them, but to what end?  We are a bottom seed team in the West and making it to the second round is probably the best case scenario.  If the idea is to win championships, you have to get off this treadmill of being too good to tank but not near good enough to contend.  And yes, Luka limits the bottom end of tanking.

And I get that argument that the Mavs are atrocious at drafting and attracting free agent.  To that I say, get better at drafting.  And once you have a core of young talent it becomes easier to recruit  the veteran who is the cherry on top (CP3 to the Suns, Jrue to the Bucks).  And hopefully by then the front office has figured out how to place nice with the other GMs in the league.  

It's fine to disagree, but I just don't think this roster is salvageable and all you can really maneuver for  are role players that you'll have to give up future draft picks for which is just going to further delay/hamper the inevitable rebuild.  I saw someone earlier advocating for trading Powell and 2x FRPs for RoCo and that is the exact move I'd dread at this point.

[dirkfansince1998]

I don't think it's that bold of a statement at all.  Bertans and Thomas Bryant was one package...you think that changes anything?  They had capspace, and if you want someone to sign, they aren't coming here for an even worse team?  We've been banking on cap space and free agents for 10 years...and we've gotten "Chandler Parsons"...yay...........

As far as KP, there was way less buzz about his ability in the off season than there is now, both internally and externally...that's obvious.

They could have added Ball (depends on the tampering thing strongly here more than cap space or KP) and/or Derozan and/or Caruso AND had KP and THJ or just KP this last off-season, so that's kind of a red herring there...since that scenario existed and they could have.

Just like you did. There is an infinite amount of potential offseason scenarios. Some of them obviously more likely than others. You chose to focus on the "negative" ones.
You don´t want to blow it up. I do. Actually think that refusing to make the necessary changes is the biggest problem right now. I agree that just talking about KPs value the situation is probably a little bit better right now but that´s not the only thing that matters. We spent hours talking about the last opportunity to make big roster changes before Luka signs his extension.
The Mavs had one last opportunity to make some roster changes in free agency. Ignoring a trade that frees up capspace and probably costs assets the Mavs are out of options.

I don´t see a scenario where the current approach with the current roster leads to more than a 1st or 2nd round exit. I don´t see a realistic way to add the necessary talent in a trade. Mavs are trapped. The quicker they blow it up. The quicker the rebuild might lead to better results.

[dirkfansince1998]

The entire offseason felt like a Mavs special. Messed up and landed themself in a difficult situation. Not willing to admit that they messed up. Continued with the same approach. Sold it as the only possible solution.
KP has no trade value. We cannot move him. They couldn´t afford to lose any talent and resigned THJ. Made some minor changes and sold Bullock and Brown as the big gets. Rinse and repeat. Same story every single offseason. Time for a clean cut. Stop trying to build something on a shaky/broken foundation. Minor cosmetics cannot fix this mess.

[Mavs2021]

..if you traded KP for a bag of magic beans (projects and draft picks) like many folks wanted to this offseason.  The Grizzlies game would be the best case every night.

Then IF you hit on the draft pick (hopefully the #1 pick that the MAVS have NEVER gotten, no matter how terrible their record, in the history of the NBA), you'd have to hit on the player and then wait for 2-3 years for him to become viable...and then, are you cool with where Luka would be then?   Either worn down from getting hte Michael Finley treatment because we don't have anything else or pissed off and ready to leave when his contract is up...

And here's the kicker...there is no guarantee that any of those measures you hoped would save you or would bring out of the H-E-double hockey sticks you are in as a franchise.  You would be making less money as a team, be LESS of a destination than you were, and the return to the 90s might be closer than you think.

It looks bad now, but we are in a better place now, than if we would have traded KP this summer.  Even with the injury, his trade value is more now than it was then.

Don't let your money get mad, Mavs Twitter.  As bad as it is, it can get worse if you just freak out and do something out of anger and frustration.  Of course, it doesn't seem so far that Mark will do anything...I admit, but December 15 is in 10 days, adn I hope that seeing JKidd's frustration, his experimentation and Nico's reputation as a smart guy, something may happen that helps.   I hate waiting, but the alternative of just blowing it up to blow it up is worse.

It´s okay Mark. It is embarrassing. It has been for a decade, but you are still a billionaire. Yahoo, Oath, Verizon is changing their name every 12 months out of shame over the Broadcast.com deal you pulled on them.  Indians and Nigerians go to prison for sh*t like that. Don´t be mad at us that you can´t get this right.

[Mavs2021]

There is no way to make the Mavs less of a free agent destination because they are already at the bottom of the barrel.  

 Zero chance Ball had interest in being here.  DeRozan I'm less sure on but If I had to guess, I'd lean towards no.  Give Caruso the Bullock Contract minus the partial gaurentee and I think he was a realistic get.  

I get the argument about not being able to upgrade KP or THJ so that's why we needed to keep them, but to what end?  We are a bottom seed team in the West and making it to the second round is probably the best case scenario.  If the idea is to win championships, you have to get off this treadmill of being too good to tank but not near good enough to contend.  And yes, Luka limits the bottom end of tanking.

And I get that argument that the Mavs are atrocious at drafting and attracting free agent.  To that I say, get better at drafting.  And once you have a core of young talent it becomes easier to recruit  the veteran who is the cherry on top (CP3 to the Suns, Jrue to the Bucks).  And hopefully by then the front office has figured out how to place nice with the other GMs in the league.  

It's fine to disagree, but I just don't think this roster is salvageable and all you can really maneuver for  are role players that you'll have to give up future draft picks for which is just going to further delay/hamper the inevitable rebuild.  I saw someone earlier advocating for trading Powell and 2x FRPs for RoCo and that is the exact move I'd dread at this point.

The Mavs just can´t help themselves. That´s why it will be so interesting what Nico´s first move will look like. Sadly I think he´s just there to do the same old Cuban sh*t with the different idea being that him/Kidd will be able to recruit free agents/players....with capspace and trade assets they don´t have.

[omahen]

The entire offseason felt like a Mavs special. Messed up and landed themself in a difficult situation. Not willing to admit that they messed up. Continued with the same approach. Sold it as the only possible solution.
KP has no trade value. We cannot move him. They couldn´t afford to lose any talent and resigned THJ. Made some minor changes and sold Bullock and Brown as the big gets. Rinse and repeat. Same story every single offseason. Time for a clean cut. Stop trying to build something on a shaky/broken foundation. Minor cosmetics cannot fix this mess.

I totally agree this team is not good enough. I don't agree Mavs don't have the means to improve it. The obstacle is the competence of the front office. Until this changes, no rebuild is going to solve anything, because you have to have the people to make smart moves for a successful rebuild too. 

Plenty of examples of smart front offices making a drastic change in a couple of months. Chicago is one example, Phoenix before them, GSW. 

Mavs owe only one FRP, all the rest can be tradeable. They have a couple of expiring contracts (Kleber is not guaranteed after this season, Powell is partially guaranteed, Bullock has only one year left). DFS or Brunson could fetch a FRP from someone. But they have to be creative. Something, they didn't show in the past. Limitations exist only in our heads. A good starter costs a young player and a FRP (see Gordon, Morris and similar). A fringe all star costs young player and 2 FRP (see Vucevic). I think Mavs have the assets for the likes of Wood or Grant. RoCo or Nurkic if Portland goes into firesale. Hayward might become available. 

But as I said in another thread these days, Mavs need to convince someone who is likely to get on the trade market that he wants to come to Dallas.

[bodhisattva]

KP doesnt even play half of the time. Personally I am at a point where I would take Bagley+salary filler and move on. Exaggerating, but only a little.
If i have a deal on a table that ships out KP and brings in two solid players, let say Holmes and Barnes from Kings or Nurkič and RoCo from Portland, I ship KP in an instant. This is where I am at.
Although if i would be on the other side, I wouldnt do ta deal like this. Honestly, I think when KP is traded, we will get even less, with a pick to ease our pain.
Didnt check the money, just trowing examples out there...

[vfromlmf]

I'm in the camp of KP is a keeper, at least for now. 

He's showing unicorn traits and I'd like to see if they can keep him healthy for a playoff run. A guy like Cody Zeller would've been awesome to start games and help load manage KP's minutes. We're probably stuck with WCS in that role but maybe he's taking time off to get his head right and he'll come back a legit NBA player ... 'cause right now he's playing like a G leaguer. If he can't make himself useful Nico should make a fringe deal for a non-shooting big to soak up minutes. Powell's next start should be in Italy.

If the team as a whole doesn't come together maybe you package KP on draft night with the FRP pick along with a couple future firsts and land a big fish.

[TXBamanut]

Just like you did. There is an infinite amount of potential offseason scenarios. Some of them obviously more likely than others. You chose to focus on the "negative" ones.
You don´t want to blow it up. I do. Actually think that refusing to make the necessary changes is the biggest problem right now. I agree that just talking about KPs value the situation is probably a little bit better right now but that´s not the only thing that matters. We spent hours talking about the last opportunity to make big roster changes before Luka signs his extension.
The Mavs had one last opportunity to make some roster changes in free agency. Ignoring a trade that frees up capspace and probably costs assets the Mavs are out of options.

I don´t see a scenario where the current approach with the current roster leads to more than a 1st or 2nd round exit. I don´t see a realistic way to add the necessary talent in a trade. Mavs are trapped. The quicker they blow it up. The quicker the rebuild might lead to better results.

And like I said, had you blown it up in the off season, selling off KP for peanuts, then you'd better enjoy the Memphis game because that's what you'll be looking at for a few years.... With no guarantees of ever being better and then your star is gone

[BackToSquareOne]

The real question is: for what could the Mavs trade Luka?

[ItsGoTime]

let say Holmes and Barnes from Kings or Nurkič and RoCo from Portland

I'm in on both of these trades. I think that's enough on court value back in both trades.

[omahen]

And like I said, had you blown it up in the off season, selling off KP for peanuts, then you'd better enjoy the Memphis game because that's what you'll be looking at for a few years.... With no guarantees of ever being better and then your star is gone

I agree with this. Realistically, the only way forward to remain competive is for Mavs to keep KP and hope he will be healthy for playoffs. I think dropping rest of dead weight of this roster (Powell mainly, but also WCS, Burke, Green) for a good starter like Grant would make Mavs actually competitive. Then you start working on the edges. I think Mavs have the assets ammo to pull it off at TDL. But there are of course 29 other teams competing for same players. Lets look if Mavs can come out winners for once. Assets even increase in 2022 draft. 

Trading KP for rotation players or expiring contracts doesn't solve Mavs problems imho. They don't have assets or cap space for a trully great player, so it would be Luka and a bunch of role players. I don't think that is nearly enough. There is no star available in 2022 anyway.

I think the biggest problem Mavs have is that no one is taking them seriously. Most of the league rankings have them around 15-20. Image of the organization around the league is not really competent. So how do you convince good players it is worth coming to Mavs? It is a player driven league and even if you are trading for a (good) player, without him buying in the opportunity it is imho difficult to have trade done.

[hakeemfaan]

I have always felt that this type of an argument is a bit incomplete. 

Can the Mavs win a lot of games without Luka and only KP?  Can the Mavs win a lot of games without KP and only Luka?  Yes to both but IF only we replace one of them with at least a somewhat comparable player. The Bulls almost won a title without MJ. That is because they added Kukoc, another terrific player. 

The real question is can you win a title without one of Luka or KP even if you replace one of them with a very good player?  The answr there IMO is you can without KP but not without Luka.  KP is not a transcendent talent. His only shot that I have relative confidence of going in is a logo 3 pt shot. On the defensive end he blows hot and cold.  So overall he is a one dimensional offensive player whose one dimension is a playground shot, while he cannot be counted on defense night in/ night out.  He is athletic for his height and can get some rim rockers on nights that he plays hard and on those nights he is a tough cover for defenses. However overall I would only put him as an above average NBA player if his defense is lagging.

[Kammrath]

The Bulls almost won a title without MJ.

[hakeemfaan]

What’s wrong?  You forgot that year where Pip was almost the MVP?  Without that bogus call for Hubert Davis, the Bulls could have won if they had got by the Knicks. They matched up well with the Rox. Not saying they would have won it but would have had a strong chance to

[Kammrath]

What’s wrong?  You forgot that year where Pip was almost the MVP?  Without that bogus call for Hubert Davis, the Bulls could have won if they had got by the Knicks. They matched up well with the Rox. Not saying they would have won it but would have had a strong chance to

Just didn't think they were that close in 1994. But ultimately that's just an opinion I guess.

[hakeemfaan]

My main point anyway was you can’t just say KP didn’t play that game and we sucked, and so we can’t win without him. What if we replaced KP with Beal or CJ?  

You have to look at it in terms of how valuable is a guy really.  If KP was an UFA on the market, how many teams would rush to grab him at this salary if they had cap space ?  Maybe one or two? Every team would try to sign Luka though. They would create cap space where there was none. 

IMO we are overrating KP based on some things that he can do pretty well for his height, but he is just and above average NBA player. Unicorn? Definitely not.