IZTOK ON KIDD'S DEFENSIVE SYSTEM AND THE ROSTER

[ClutchDirk]

I think there is a lot to this. 

And even Dirk has been known to show up out of shape.

2011-2012 is an example...

[fifteenth]

I think there is a lot to this. 

And even Dirk has been known to show up out of shape.

I can't remember him showing up out of shape except for the season after he won the championship. Am I wrong on that? 

Dirk didn't jump on the "diet is critical" bandwagon until a few years in, but once he did, he pretty much gave up sugar until he retired, and didn't drink beer during the season. He went hard core.

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2011-2012 is an example...

Is it the only example? 

I, FIFTEENTH MAN, OF NO IMPORTANCE WHATSOVER, DO HEREBY GRANT LUKA THE PERMISSION TO COME IN TO TRAINING CAMP A LITTLE OUT OF SHAPE AFTER HE WINS HIS FIRST CHAMPIONSHIP

[mavsluvr]

The answer is make it clear to Luka that coming out of shape and playing himself into shape during the season is not acceptable.

Well, I'm not much of a one for ultimatums with someone you want to maintain a good relationship with, but maybe that's an option. I guess the question is, or else what?


I mean, the guy played all summer with his national team. He didn't show up in bad shape, just not in peak shape. Along with much of the league. That final conditioning is what training camp is partly for, isn't it? Are we so disgusted with this guy that we can't live with his temporarily having a few extra pounds of body fat? If we are, then we are, I suppose.

[mavsluvr]

I can't remember him showing up out of shape except for the season after he won the championship. Am I wrong on that? 

I don't see why there should have been an exception for that. Cuban told him there wasn't going be a season? Excuses are like a-holes -- everybody has one, and they all stink. If he had been keeping himself in shape 365/year, it wouldn't have happened. What a pathetic excuse for a basketball player.

[hakeemfaan]

Well, I'm not much of a one for ultimatums with someone you want to maintain a good relationship with, but maybe that's an option. I guess the question is, or else what?


I mean, the guy played all summer with his national team. He didn't show up in bad shape, just not in peak shape. Along with much of the league. That final conditioning is what training camp is partly for, isn't it? Are we so disgusted with this guy that we can't live with his temporarily having a few extra pounds of body fat? If we are, then we are, I suppose.

As I said we totally disagree on the statement of training camp being the place for folks to play in shape. There is no middle ground there. 

As for the other words such as “disgust over a few pounds of body fat” you have been engaging in strawman arguments, hyperboles, and surprisingly immature comparisons to what has been reasonable nuanced arguments that have been in favor of Luka too.  

You are one of my favorite posters and as mentioned we will just disagree on this particular topic.

[SwisherPrice]

If we are comparing Dirk and Luka, it's not even close. 2012 after the championship was the only time I ever heard conditioning/game shape being an issue for Dirk. Every other season, he was as peak of an athlete as you could ask for. It was an era where star players were getting heavy minutes too...Dirk was averaging 38 minutes/game for like 5-6 seasons.

At the same age Luka is now - when you are that young in your career, conditioning should never be an issue. Once you start losing your youthfulness/peak athleticism, that's when the big issues arrive if you don't take care of your body because not only will it affect your game but your ability to get on the floor (injuries will be more common). Dirk was always well-conditioned and with that comes durability. He never missed many games and that was a big reason why they won 50 games for 10 years. 

Shaq is the only player I can recall that was able to withstand those issues but that was because he was the most physical/dominant force in the game. If he had managed to take care of his body and weight like he was in Orlando, it's scary to think he could have been even greater.

[fifteenth]

I don't see why there should have been an exception for that. Cuban told him there wasn't going be a season? Excuses are like a-holes -- everybody has one, and they all stink. If he had been keeping himself in shape 365/year, it wouldn't have happened. What a pathetic excuse for a basketball player.

I think you're trying to make a point with this. And I'm certainly not against the sarcasm. But I'm not clear on the point. Are you saying that the Olympics are are a reasonable exception? I might buy that if you are. 

But if he deserved a good sized break because of 2 condensed NBA seasons, and a hard core Olympic run (I'm sure he did deserve it), I'd still like to see him get the diet and conditioning thing worked out in general.

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I don't see why there should have been an exception for that. Cuban told him there wasn't going be a season? Excuses are like a-holes -- everybody has one, and they all stink. If he had been keeping himself in shape 365/year, it wouldn't have happened. What a pathetic excuse for a basketball player.

Oh, wait. Or did you just use a distraction technique! That almost worked!!!! You're good, you.

So, back to Dirk. Was he "known to show up out of shape"? Or did he do it just once in 20 years?

[fifteenth]

Are we so disgusted with this guy

I've only seen one person say they were disgusted with him. Did I miss some others?

[fifteenth]

Thread Recap

Part 1: Great disussion of coaching, scheme and personnel, sparked by a great offering from Iztok

Part 2: Luka's fitness talk breaks out

[mavsluvr]

I think you're trying to make a point with this. And I'm certainly not against the sarcasm. But I'm not clear on the point. Are you saying that the Olympics are are a reasonable exception? I might buy that if you are. 

I think it should at least be taken into account, for heaven's sake. 

But if he deserved a good sized break because of 2 condensed NBA seasons, and a hard core Olympic run (I'm sure he did deserve it), I'd still like to see him get the diet and conditioning thing worked out in general.

Yeah, for sure. 

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Oh, wait. Or did you just use a distraction technique! That almost worked!!!! You're good, you.

So, back to Dirk. Was he "known to show up out of shape"? Or did he do it just once in 20 years?

I don't know. What does it matter? Once was too much! Perfection is required!

The point I was trying to make is that even the best of players can and do show up rating an 85 or 90 instead of 100 on the conditioning scale, for all sorts of reasons, many of which make sense. It doesn't necessarily mean they're beneath contempt. 

It seems to me that if you're lucky enough to have a generational talent on your roster, you take into account the circumstances, and try to help the guy out. But I realize after this discussion that a lot of people vehemently disagree with that, at least when it comes to conditioning!

Okay. NBD. That's what makes horse races. 


P.S. Fif, have you noticed how I keep heeding your admonition not to be a bore yammering about all that it's-cuban's-fault stuff? Even though I have really wanted to numerous times! Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow, pal!

[fifteenth]

P.S. Fif, have you noticed how I keep heeding your admonition not to be a bore yammering about all that it's-cuban's-fault stuff? Even though I have really wanted to numerous times! Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow, pal!

Oh no!!! I've done a great disservice to the forum. We need mavsluvr uncensored!!!! It creates more conversation!!! :-) 

And anyway, it is mostly Cuban's fault!!!! Always!!!!

I just hope that Cuban isn't still the GM.

[mavsluvr]

Oh no!!! I've done a great disservice to the forum. We need mavsluvr uncensored!!!! It creates more conversation!!! :-) 

And anyway, it is mostly Cuban's fault!!!! Always!!!!

I just hope that Cuban isn't still the GM.

HAHAHA

No, I actually appreciate being reminded when I have belabored a point long enough. 

I think my thoughts on Luka and his conditioning have probably reached that stage by now!

Believe it or not, I started this thread wanting to talk about defense, lol.

[ItsGoTime]

For me its in the bottom left right above "Users browsing this thread"

To unsubscribe to this thread, you go to every other thread and hit subscribe! It’s an all or none thing.

[fifteenth]

Believe it or not, I started this thread wanting to talk about defense, lol.

Oh man, yeah, that Iztok stuff is really interesting, and I thought you guys broke the article down really well. Loved it.,

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To unsubscribe to this thread, you go to every other thread and hit subscribe! It’s an all or none thing.

I just went around and subscribed to all the Fat Luka threads!

More Luka is better!! Can't get enough Luka!!

[ClutchDirk]

Believe it or not, I started this thread wanting to talk about defense, lol.

Another thread derailed lol...

[fifteenth]

Another thread derailed lol...

And I think @"mavsluvr" may have been the one to derail it!!! 

[michaeltex]

The point I was trying to make is that even the best of players can and do show up rating an 85 or 90 instead of 100 on the conditioning scale, for all sorts of reasons, many of which make sense. It doesn't necessarily mean they're beneath contempt. 

Football guys talk about being "in shape" and then being "in game shape", which is shorthand for having the physical stamina to deal with all the side stuff involved in playing apart from just throwing, catching or running in a straight line.


Basketball guys talk about this too. That's why training camp is important to learn how to work successfully as a team while an opponent is trying to disrupt your plan. That's the additional 10% you get in camp. (And early season now that training camps are shortened).