GAME 12: DAL (8-4) @ SAS (4-8) | 123-109 win

[omahen]

The SAS broadcast just said Luka is -96 +/- for the year....second worst among all NBA starters. They literally said, "Normally guys get cut for numbers like that...."

I am really trying hard to ignore Kamm, but I have to respond to this. Off course statement quoted was said sarcastically as they (especially Elliot) went on a 2 minute rant how this stat is a (direct quote) "a load of fertilizer". Typical Kamm pushing his narrative..

[burekemde]

I am really trying hard to ignore Kamm, but I have to respond to this. Off course statement quoted was said sarcastically as they (especially Elliot) went on a 2 minute rant how this stat is a (direct quote) "a load of fertilizer". Typical Kamm pushing his narrative..

Agree omahen, I think in periods of games where the scheme and movements have not been an issue in the first games of season, it was clear Luka is at the top of his game in these situations. This game against SAS, which is actually the very first game of season where our scheme wasn't an disadvantage for a full game, it really showed that Luka is Luka. It's easy to take things out of context looking at isolated team stats. Every team stat holds the key to the truth about an individual, but interpreting that truth is not easy. I really believe that only FT stats are the only stat that is straightforward, as that is a single individual event stat. Luka obviously needs improving at FTs and i think he has the tools for it.

[Kammrath]

I am really trying hard to ignore Kamm, but I have to respond to this. Off course statement quoted was said sarcastically as they (especially Elliot) went on a 2 minute rant how this stat is a (direct quote) "a load of fertilizer". Typical Kamm pushing his narrative..

Where did I push a narrative? 

Where did I misrepresent them? 

I thought the whole thing was hilarious and dumb. Bunch of people who have no business talking about +/- talking about it. THEY were pushing their narrative, I was just listening and then passing along the ridiculousness here. 

Elliot says some REALLY dumb things at times, he is like a "jester." At one point he said, "I question how they even calculate +/-!" as if there were some mysterious and hidden math and analytics behind it and it weren't one of the simplest and most straightforward stats there is.

[Kammrath]

I am really trying hard to ignore Kamm, but I have to respond to this. Off course statement quoted was said sarcastically as they (especially Elliot) went on a 2 minute rant how this stat is a (direct quote) "a load of fertilizer". Typical Kamm pushing his narrative.

Did you really think "Guys normally get cut for that kind of thing..." was in anyway a serious statement?? That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Obviously untrue and obviously sarcastic. Obviously a bunch of people who only have a false understanding of +/- and how it is used by teams.

And yet somehow I am "pushing a narrative." Right.

[omahen]

Did you really think "Guys normally get cut for that kind of thing...was in anyway a serious statement??

I didn't. That is why I pointed it out when you quoted it. I think that was clear.

I was just listening and then passing along the ridiculousness here. 

Obviously untrue and obviously sarcastic.

I think you should decide if you think the statement you quoted was untrue and sarcastic or dumb and ridiculous. If you think it was sarcastic, than perhaps you should give the full context when quoting, because the one who was not listening to the whole thing, might have difficulty to understand it was sarcasm. In fact, it might lead us to conclusion that you didn't understand it was sarcasm but thought it was serious, which would make the statement dumb and ridiculous. And if it was sarcasm, than perhaps they do know what they are talking about +-.

Bunch of people who have no business talking about +/- talking about it.

Sean Elliot was an All star and NBA champion. I guess he knows a thing or two about basketball. But dear Kamm almighty, please enlighten us, who else has no business talking about +-?

[Kammrath]

In fact, it might lead us to conclusion that you didn't understand it was sarcasm but thought it was serious, which would make the statement dumb and ridiculous. And if it was sarcasm, than perhaps they do know what they are talking about +-.

It was BOTH dumb and sarcastic. They were being sarcastic, but they also clearly (at least Elliot) portrayed no understanding of the number and how to properly use it. It was typical straw man stuff. Let's make fun of +/- by saying ridiculous things that no one has ever actually argued.

[Kammrath]

dear Kamm almighty

Does that make you feel better? Do you think making fun of each other is helpful?

[omahen]

Does that make you feel better? Do you think making fun of each other is helpful?

I didn't think a guy calling other people dumb, jester and developing multiple theories how unprofessional someone who knows nothing about is, would be so touchy.

[Kammrath]

I didn't think a guy calling other people dumb, jester and developing multiple theories how unprofessional someone who knows nothing about is, would be so touchy.

Reading comprehension.

I said the discussion was DUMB, not the people. Elliot fills a "jester" role on their broadcast, that's his "schtick" so to speak. Based on their comments they don't actually know about +/- and how it should be applied (unless they do but decided to just make those comments for "entertainment" value). It was probably all meant to be entertaining. I didn't find it so. But who knows.

[omahen]

I said the discussion was DUMB, not the people.

Of course you did. Let me help you with a quote from your post. I am done here. If anyone wants to hear and make his own opinion, the +- discussion happened right at the start of second quarter.

Elliot is REALLY dumb

[Kammrath]

I edited it. That's my bad, I did not mean to say it in that way. Again was trying to portray his ROLE on the broadcast. My bad.

[fifteenth]

Folks are getting upset about Kam posting concerns about Luka's early season performance

You guys should have been here for Dirk's career!

Kam actually likes Luka, and he's not saying that Luka won't get this figured out

Over Dirk's career we had multiple people who weren't just concerend about stretches of play by Dirk...They posted for years about how Dirk would never lead his team to a championship. Some of them were famous for it and multiple folks here couuld mention some names. They came out to play after each loss to talk about all Dirk's faults, with no attempt to offer any suggestion of hope for Dirk. And some of them we never heard from again after 2011.

[Chicagojk]

Folks are getting upset about Kam posting concerns about Luka's early season performance

You guys should have been here for Dirk's career!

Kam actually likes Luka, and he's not saying that Luka won't get this figured out

Over Dirk's career we had multiple people who weren't just concerend about stretches of play by Dirk...They posted for years about how Dirk would never lead his team to a championship. Some of them were famous for it and multiple folks here couuld mention some names. They came out to play after each loss to talk about all Dirk's faults, with not attempt to offer any suggestion of hope for Dirk. And some of them we never heard from again after 2011.

I admit I tend to be harder on Luka than I ever was on Dirk.   I always defended Dirk and most of my frustration was always with his teammates.   Not sure why, but watching the games now I have several times where I get really frustrated with Luka that I never did with Dirk.   

It is weird.  After the games when I reflect on the game I realize I am too hard on him at times, but it is weird to have such an elite player and at times I am like "What are you doing out there Luka."

[dirkfansince1998]

Folks are getting upset about Kam posting concerns about Luka's early season performance

You guys should have been here for Dirk's career!

Kam actually likes Luka, and he's not saying that Luka won't get this figured out

Over Dirk's career we had multiple people who weren't just concerend about stretches of play by Dirk...They posted for years about how Dirk would never lead his team to a championship. Some of them were famous for it and multiple folks here couuld mention some names. They came out to play after each loss to talk about all Dirk's faults, with no attempt to offer any suggestion of hope for Dirk. And some of them we never heard from again after 2011.

Safe to say that they didn´t use +/- or advanced metrics to attack Dirk. In his prime Dirk was among the league leaders. There is obviously more than one RAPM but to highlight how dominant Dirk was in this kind of metrics.

I think this is the most commonly used RAPM version.

https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

Dirk ranked

2nd in 2001
3rd in 2002
1st in 2003 
6th in 2004 
3rd in 2005
4th in 2006
3rd in 2007
2nd in 2008
45th in 2009
10th in 2010
1st in 2011
3rd in 2012
50th in 2013
8th in 2014

Adjusted for minutes played. Turning the numbers into a wins added metric. He lead the league in 01, 02, 05, 07 and 11.
Dirk also ranks 3rd in career raw +/- (behind Duncan and LBJ). Tracking started in 96/97.

There is something to it when @"Kammrath" says that Luka hasn´t reached the level of all time greats yet. His impact isn´t comparable to prime Dirk. Or other all time greats. Looking at those metrics it´s more or less a list of the best players of the last 20 years at the top. LBJ, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk.