TAKE DAT WIT YOU 11/11

[KillerLeft]

I FINALLY GOT AN "ASTUTE"!!!

---

I mean, I can't remember who suggested this, or in which thread, but just the idea that Brunson spends more minutes playing with ONE BIG lends itself to the theory that when he's in there, the team is more focused on spacing, imo. 

I don't think anything we come up with is going to fully explain this all away, though. We'd have to be insiders to truly understand what's going on.

[michaeltex]

Probably along with missed open shots (which are happening across the board).

Very true.

As an example, Damian Lillard currently shooting 38% overall and 25.4% from 3pt.

I say super active sunspots are interacting with the Van Allen belt creating a electromagnetic flux which is disturbing Earths iron core and causing micro fluctuations in gravity which, in turn makes the ball heavier or lighter and affects the anticipated trajectory.

Or it could just be early in the season with new coaches and offenses to learn.

[mavsluvr]

I think I saw somewhere that the Mavs are playing DP with KP to "protect him" and try to not expose him to all the beating that a big takes. 

Well, it may be protecting KP's body some....but man it is KILLING the team right now.

By all accounts, the Mavs are aware that these lineups are not working very well, but they think DP is the best of some rather unpalatable alternatives. 

If, as reported, their number one goal is to load-manage KP, and they are willing to give up some games to accomplish that, if necessary, then what is the better alternative? Can't be Maxi -- he's hurt. Can't be one big all the time -- too much load on KP (according to them). What do you suggest? Boban? Willie? Moses? DFS?  

I expect you to answer that you're not an NBA coach, and it's not your job to come up with solutions. None of us is an NBA coach, afaik, but if none of the knowledgeable fans can come up with a better idea, then it's quite possible that there isn't a solution, at least in the short term. 

Maybe you can come up with a suggestion? Parsing it might help us all to understand if there is a fixable problem or not.

[fifteenth]

What do you suggest?

You didn't ask me, but I'll chime in anyway. :-) 

I'd say that helping the KP/DP lineups to understand what they're supposed to be doing when they're on the floor together would help. My answer in short, "coaches, can you fix the "chickens with their heads cut off" plays?

I'm sure this next bit of speculation is false. But I'm just throwing it all on the wall at the moment. Are the coaches allowing KP to "just play basketball" so that he comes to the conclusion on his own that in some lineups it would be better for him to do some spacing. I mean, KP, come on, Dirk did it at times.

[Kammrath]

If, as reported, their number one goal is to load-manage KP, and they are willing to give up some games to accomplish that, if necessary, then what is the better alternative? Can't be Maxi -- he's hurt. Can't be one big all the time -- too much load on KP (according to them). What do you suggest? Boban? Willie? Moses? DFS?  

If their number one goal is to load manage KP---with the goal of keeping him healthy for a trade near the deadline---then I 100% support that. 

If the goal is to load manage him for the playoffs, then I am not supportive of that if it means playing poor basketball in the meantime. I don't believe in just turning things on in the playoffs and I think the regular season is a really important preparation for the playoffs--a time of building the team chemistry and cohesion needed to perform at an elite level against the best of the best. 

Basically, if the Mavs are planning to keep KP for themselves, then they need to figure out what lineups and combinations work best. If they are planning to trade him, then by all means, do what you need to keep him healthy and putting up good numbers.

[KillerLeft]

DFS?

That's one-big. 

I'd be shocked if that isn't the destination in the back of their minds, but to your "load-management" point, it seems like that's exactly what they're trying to avoid for now. 

Powell absolutely is the best choice, if they're locked into two bigs early on, and since Kleber is hurt. 

But, in my opinion, that throws a wrench into this idea that KP should get the ball more frequently in that extended free throw area or in the low post. That idea, combined with KP/Powell as a combo, are a nearly impossible to reconcile dichotomy. At least, that's how I see the situation. 

It's almost as if you're better off not depending on someone for whom concessions have to be made just to get him through the season healthy, let alone playing well. Weird.

[fifteenth]

That's one-big. 

I'd be shocked if that isn't the destination in the back of their minds, but to your "load-management" point, it seems like that's exactly what they're trying to avoid for now. 

Powell absolutely is the best choice, if they're locked into two bigs early on, and since Kleber is hurt. 

But, in my opinion, that throws a wrench into this idea that KP should get the ball more frequently in that extended free throw area or in the low post. That idea, combined with KP/Powell as a combo, are a nearly impossible to reconcile dichotomy. At least, that's how I see the situation. 

It's almost as if you're better off not depending on someone for whom concessions have to be made just to get him through the season healthy, let alone playing well. Weird.

not just astute...quite astute

[KillerLeft]

If their number one goal is to load manage KP---with the goal of keeping him healthy for a trade near the deadline---then I 100% support that. 

If the goal is to load manage him for the playoffs, then I am not supportive of that if it means playing poor basketball in the meantime. I don't believe in just turning things on in the playoffs and I think the regular season is a really important preparation for the playoffs--a time of building the team chemistry and cohesion needed to perform at an elite level against the best of the best. 

Basically, if the Mavs are planning to keep KP for themselves, then they need to figure out what lineups and combinations work best. If they are planning trade him, then by all means, do what you need to keep him healthy and putting up good numbers.

GREAT POST. 

The only way I differ is that I believe so much in the importance and difficulty of what's laid out in the last two paragraphs that I think it's shooting yourself in the foot to put even an ounce of thought into what's described in the first. 

Since I haven't said this in a while, let me just declare again that NOTHING is going to work as it should on this team until the horrible KP misstep is resolved. If they still believe he can work here, fine. I don't understand why they'd think that, but fine. If not, DUMP HIS ASS for what you can get and begin to move FORWARD again as a team.

[mavsluvr]

You didn't ask me, but I'll chime in anyway. :-) 

fifteenth, I always welcome your delightful views -- you don't need to be asked

I'd say that helping the KP/DP lineups to understand what they're supposed to be doing when they're on the floor together would help. My answer in short, "coaches, can you fix the "chickens with their heads cut off" plays?

Totally!

I haven't tried to see whether any stats bear this out, but from my eye test, it seems like these are some of the absolute worst lineups in terms of the Mavs wrecking their own offense. KP posting up while Luka and Powell are trying to execute their PNRs. KP and DP both diving to the basket at the same time. KP and DP actually colliding with each other under the basket. Woof!

These lineups look they desperately need some coaching staff attention. 


I'm sure this next bit of speculation is false. But I'm just throwing it all on the wall at the moment. Are the coaches allowing KP to "just play basketball" so that he comes to the conclusion on his own that in some lineups it would be better for him to do some spacing. I mean, KP, come on, Dirk did it at times.

I've heard that speculated on a few times. That it is one of Kidd's primary jobs to get along with KP. So he lets him play how he wants, and either it works, or eventually KP realizes that it doesn't work. I wouldn't be surprised if there is something to it. 

At any rate, I don't know to what degree that is true, but you have to think there is an ultimate end point if it doesn't start working. That being Luka's frustration level getting too high. 

[fifteenth]

At any rate, I don't know to what degree that is true, but you have to think there is an ultimate end point if it doesn't start working. That being Luka's frustration level getting too high. 

Yes...and the pile of losses on the floor gets too high and starts to stink too much

[fifteenth]

I'm sure when Mark, Nico, Kidd, Fin and Dirk get together they have someone popping in and out of the room, bringing snacks and drinks. We need for one us to get that job and report back here regularly.

[mavsluvr]

If their number one goal is to load manage KP---with the goal of keeping him healthy for a trade near the deadline---then I 100% support that. 

If the goal is to load manage him for the playoffs, then I am not supportive of that if it means playing poor basketball in the meantime. I don't believe in just turning things on in the playoffs and I think the regular season is a really important preparation for the playoffs--a time of building the team chemistry and cohesion needed to perform at an elite level against the best of the best. 

Basically, if the Mavs are planning to keep KP for themselves, then they need to figure out what lineups and combinations work best. If they are planning to trade him, then by all means, do what you need to keep him healthy and putting up good numbers.

If I were taking your deposition, I would object to that answer as non-responsive. 

You continue to complain about the KP-DP combo as KILLING the team. Okay, so far, so good. Complaining about this would seem to indicate that you think there is a better decision to be made. Since, if there isn't a solution to be implemented, it is pointless to keep pounding on the problem.

So -- are you saying you don't have a solution, but you think it is important to keep mentioning the problem, so we won't forget about it?

Or, are you saying that the solution would vary depending on whether they plan to keep or trade KP? Are you saying that playing KP with DP is okay if they want to trade KP, but not if they don't? If so, cool, who should they be playing him with if they don't?  

Saying that the Mavs should figure out the right thing to do is just a truism. That applies to every decision they make, and to every coaching staff in the league. It's not a helpful answer.

It might help us understand the issue better if, when you point out the problem, you can tell us what you see that might be contributing to it, or if you are unable to do that, tell us what choice you think would be better than the ones they are making. Just repeating a bunch of +/- stats isn't helpful, once the point differential has been identified. Or, maybe you have some other +/- combos to offer that would at least show us what is working better. 

I hope you don't think this post is "condescending." We're all on the same level here. It's an honest attempt to understand your line of thinking as to what you think the reasons for the negative point differentials are, how they might do better, or, if there isn't a viable solution at present, why you think it is important to keep repeating that the problem exists.

[chaparral]

I'm sure when Mark, Nico, Kidd, Fin and Dirk get together they have someone popping in and out of the room, bringing snacks and drinks. We need for one us to get that job and report back here regularly.

Unfortunately the one from this board to get that job would be like Spider in Goodfellas and Cuban is the Pesci character.

[fifteenth]

Unfortunately the one from this board to get that job would be like Spider in Goodfellas and Cuban is the Pesci character.

You think I'm funny?

[Thukydides]

Ok, I expected to see low numbers for Brunson+DP+KP but it´s absolutely crazy that the three haven´t even played one minute together. Poor Luka must enure Kidd´s idiocy of pairing KP and DP.

[Kammrath]

You continue to complain about the KP-DP combo as KILLING the team. Okay, so far, so good. Complaining about this would seem to indicate that you think there is a better decision to be made. Since, if there isn't a solution to be implemented, it is pointless to keep pounding on the problem.

So -- are you saying you don't have a solution, but you think it is important to keep mentioning the problem, so we won't forget about it?

Or, are you saying that the solution would vary depending on whether they plan to keep or trade KP? Are you saying that playing KP with DP is okay if they want to trade KP, but not if they don't? If so, cool, who should they be playing him with if they don't?  

Saying that the Mavs should figure out the right thing to do is just a truism. That applies to every decision they make, and to every coaching staff in the league. It's not a helpful answer.

It might help us understand the issue better if, when you point out the problem, you can tell us what you see that might be contributing to it, or if you are unable to do that, tell us what choice you think would be better than the ones they are making. Just repeating a bunch of +/- stats isn't helpful, once the point differential has been identified. Or, maybe you have some other +/- combos to offer that would at least show us what is working better. 

I hope you don't think this post is "condescending." We're all on the same level here. It's an honest attempt to understand your line of thinking as to what you think the reasons for the negative point differentials are, how they might do better, or, if there isn't a viable solution at present, why you think it is important to keep repeating that the problem exists.

I literally have once said the KP-DP combo is "killing" the team. ONCE. @"Thukydides" put me on to it literally today, and I think I mentioned his find one other time in a thread because I thought it was really insightful of him. I am not beating some dead horse like you are pretending. 


My main goal is to look at what is happening on the court, both by watching the games and by analyzing the numbers. I observe first and above all. Observation is the heart of what I am trying to do. If we don't observe often and always, then we will just be ignorant and spouting emptiness with our fancy talk. Only after as much observation as I can, do I try to come to conclusions. And then only after more observation do I want to suggest solutions. (This is the reason one of the only conclusions I feel confident about right now is Luka's physical conditioning. I have 3+ years of watching him and all that observation makes me quite confident his physical condition is a significant issue right now.)

The season is 11 games old. I am still deep in observation mode. That is not enough data to come to a lot of conclusions, much less solutions. I bring numbers to this board because they are part of the observation we have as fans. They help us to see what is going on. I want to share that with my fellow fans. If you don't want my observations, then please, I beg you again, ignore me and make my life easier.

Earlier I answered your question about KP playing with other bigs. But apparently you didn't like my answer, because my answer was contingent on different possible scenarios. Well, too bad. That is all you get. I do not have enough information to make a hard and fast stance on things at this point. If I was GM and was trying to trade KP, then the current course would be fine with me. If I was GM and trying to hold on to KP for the duration then I would be on my coach about trying to experiment with some different lineup combinations and roles. But alas, I do not know the team's intentions and plans, so I am working from ignorance and therefore will be contingent in my statements. 

Also, when I have pointed out what I think is the problem (like Luka's shooting, physical conditioning, defensive effort in the Luka-thread) I have only been chided and ridiculed as though I am saying Luka should be benched or is "scum." So, no, I am not going to pander to you and give you more conclusions so you can make fun of them from your high horse. I am going to take my own advice and ignore you until you want to interact with me in a way that is respectful and humble.

[Thukydides]

We need to differentiate here: Carlisle played KP and DP together a ton. And it didn´t totally mess up our offense. As I said earlier the main issue is KP not wanting to be used as a floor spacer. The famous Carlisle quote, where he dismissed KP post ups is the key here. If KP is spacing out and DP is rolling, Luka is fine. 
If you want Luka to be super efficient, you need to put him on isolation island with four guys spacing around. I don´t think that´s something that should be done over extended periods of time though, as it wears Luka down immensely (we know that story)

You cannot have KP posting up/flashing from low to high post etc. AND maximize Luka´s strengths. It´s just not working that way. If KP wants to be the man  posting up being the focal point of the offense, that´s fine. But he should be at least efficient enough to carry the offense for stretches, which BY A LANDSLIDE he is not!

So where do we go? I´d trade KP as soon as possible, before he gets injured again. But that´s just me

[Thukydides]

Guys, you know what the saddest part is? I´m pretty sure that Kidd isn´t capable or willing to go through the thought exercises that us casual fans do on a message board. Plus he has noone to speak against him besides maybe Luka. How depressing is this?

[chaparral]

You think I'm funny?

Now that scene Kidd is Liotta and Pesci is still Cuban.

[mvossman]

By all accounts, the Mavs are aware that these lineups are not working very well, but they think DP is the best of some rather unpalatable alternatives. 

If, as reported, their number one goal is to load-manage KP, and they are willing to give up some games to accomplish that, if necessary, then what is the better alternative? Can't be Maxi -- he's hurt. Can't be one big all the time -- too much load on KP (according to them). What do you suggest? Boban? Willie? Moses? DFS?  

I expect you to answer that you're not an NBA coach, and it's not your job to come up with solutions. None of us is an NBA coach, afaik, but if none of the knowledgeable fans can come up with a better idea, then it's quite possible that there isn't a solution, at least in the short term. 

Maybe you can come up with a suggestion? Parsing it might help us all to understand if there is a fixable problem or not.

If Kidd/FO plan was to use 2 big lineups to protect KP and to let KP do a bunch of post ups because that is what he likes, then they should have made some kind of an effort to get the personnel to implement said strategy.  Watching Luka/Powell P&R while KP is posting up has been a total shit show.  Don't know what would possess anyone to think it would be otherwise.  Maxi is the obvious alternative, but he never started while he was healthy.  Given that KP is very injury prone, Maxi is injury prone and can't play big minutes, Powell is not starter quality and not a good option for single big (even against second units) and the rest of the bigs are not really rotation material, and you clearly needed to upgrade the big rotation if you plan on running two of them out there regularly.  Letting your players hamstring the team by choosing the starting lineup has not really played out well.