NBA TRADE TALK: TDL over

[F Gump]

What has me asking about THJ is the inclusion of Lamb. Does that make THJ's inclusion more plausible, is my question.

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[THJ's] two best seasons [were under RC], actually.

I have thought for a while there's an angle for THJ to Indy, with Lavert to Dallas, as part of a MT deal.

THJ fits the RC system. Lavert, who can't space the floor so clogs up the flow, does not fit, and his contract is not very enticing. I'd much rather have Lamb (or Warren or Craig) than Lavert, because of money, but I think Indy would prefer them too for the same reaon. So I think the Pacers would LOVE to replace Lavert with THJ, and it would add plus value in getting Turner.

In addition, that 2-for-2 (THJ/DP for MT/CL) lowers the payroll for Indy which is mandatory in any trade (they're right at the tax line).

Once current caution re Turner. He has been dealing with some sort of foot problems, that may be a real issue. Gotta be very wary.

[mvossman]

THJ is the perfect salary match for Turner. Just don´t see the fit on the Pacers. I guess a combination of RC´s favorites is more likely.
Would hate the deal but Powell + DFS + 1st for Turner and Lamb into the TPE makes a lot of sense. But I am on team "give up another first before you think about DFS or Brunson".

I will be pissed if we give up DFS + first for Turner.  Is THJ really that bad a fit on that team?  Looks like they could use some shooting.  The Powell fit seems more awkward to me.  Can't put him on the court with Sabonis which means he wont get more than 12 minutes a game.

Honestly if its DFS + first, I think I would rather do the earlier suggested trade where we send Brunson to NY and they send two picks to Indy, and we send THJ to Indy for Turner.  Of course that only makes sense if we then trade KP for a playmaker (Simmons, Siakam, McCollum), but it does not seem like they are even thinking about trading KP, so that is probably a pipe dream.

[Omega_Supreme]

DFS is the heart and soul of this team. Trading him you are trading a guy that gives you intangibles that do not always show up in the box score. 

I will be very upset if we trade him and Brunson. 

THJ needs to be the guy we move, I have been saying this for months now.

[sterlingmallory]

DFS is the heart and soul of this team. Trading him you are trading a guy that gives you intangibles that do not always show up in the box score. 

I will be very upset if we trade him and Brunson. 

THJ needs to be the guy we move, I have been saying this for months now.

I think pretty much everyone would love to trade THJ, the question is what, if anything, is his value? Could you get anything worthwhile for him in return? Would you have to attach assets to move him? You'll be hard pressed to find anyone here that thinks THJ is better or more important to the team than DFS. We'd all love to flip THJ for something good and keep DFS if we could, the problem is, DFS is much more valuable to other teams than Hardaway.

I've been trying to explain what seems like weeks now that just because you're willing to trade DFS, it doesn't mean you want to just get rid of him or don't value what he brings to the table. We all know how much Dorian means to this team on and off the court, but if you can trade him for a major upgrade then you have to do it. Ultimately, no one is untouchable except for Luka.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I have thought for a while there's an angle for THJ to Indy, with Lavert to Dallas, as part of a MT deal.

THJ fits the RC system. Lavert, who can't space the floor so clogs up the flow, does not fit, and his contract is not very enticing. I'd much rather have Lamb (or Warren or Craig) than Lavert, because of money, but I think Indy would prefer them too for the same reaon. So I think the Pacers would LOVE to replace Lavert with THJ, and it would add plus value in getting Turner.

In addition, that 2-for-2 (THJ/DP for MT/CL) lowers the payroll for Indy which is mandatory in any trade (they're right at the tax line).

Once current caution re Turner. He has been dealing with some sort of foot problems, that may be a real issue. Gotta be very wary.

I agree with the Hardaway fit in Indy.  I'd go further to say LeVert's ball handling makes him a better sixth man here than Hardaway.  One more year in the $19mm range is much better than three more years at the same price for Hardaway.  It is possible that by the 23/24 season Josh has grown into a similar or even better player and LeVert at that price tag won't be needed.  I don't think the the Mav's are losing a Hardaway for LeVert swap and may be winning it.

My question is whether Indy would value Powell over Maxi next to Sabonis.  I think it is hands down Maxi (which saves Indy even more money than the Powell two for two).  But, neither lands you Turner.  Even if you think THJ has positive value compared to LeVert, that plus Indy's choice of Maxi or Powell doesn't get you there.  Something has to be added, whether that is a pick or a player.

[Mavs2021]

I´d just do THJ for LeVert straight up, but I don´t think the Pacers would go for that.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I´d just do THJ for LeVert straight up, but I don´t think the Pacers would go for that.

Thus, from Indy's perspective THJ for LeVert is neutral value at best.  They do struggle to attract FA's, so having Hardaway locked up for multiple years might be enticing given that Warren and Lamb roll off this summer and Turner, LeVert, Holiday and Craig roll off next year.

If it is THJ for LeVert and either Powell or Maxi plus something for Turner, I suspect that something is Finney.  I think the same thing might apply to an Atlanta swap for Collins.  Again in that scenario, I suspect Atlanta would prioritize Maxi over Powell given the rest of their personnel.

[Mapka]

I think pretty much everyone would love to trade THJ, the question is what, if anything, is his value? Could you get anything worthwhile for him in return? Would you have to attach assets to move him? You'll be hard pressed to find anyone here that thinks THJ is better or more important to the team than DFS. We'd all love to flip THJ for something good and keep DFS if we could, the problem is, DFS is much more valuable to other teams than Hardaway.

I've been trying to explain what seems like weeks now that just because you're willing to trade DFS, it doesn't mean you want to just get rid of him or don't value what he brings to the table. We all know how much Dorian means to this team on and off the court, but if you can trade him for a major upgrade then you have to do it. Ultimately, no one is untouchable except for Luka.

The problem is, DFS is used as throw-in or sweetener in a trade for roleplayers.
He is just so much more to us then he is worth in a trade.

I don't see how "getting rid" of THJ helps us either.

[Omega_Supreme]

Turner is hurt right now and he is getting a second opinion so I am wondering if this could put this on hold until after the season.

[Mavs2021]

The problem is, DFS is used as throw-in or sweetener in a trade for roleplayers.
He is just so much more to us then he is worth in a trade.

I don't see how "getting rid" of THJ helps us either.

Cause we realistically need another high-end playmaker and a defensive upgrade at PF/C. It was obvious against the Thunder that without either Doncic or Brunson on the court at all times we are screwed. In the play-offs we might be screwed with only one on the floor.

To me the ideal (short-termish) rotation would be something like

Doncic/LeVert
Brunson/Lamb + S. Brown
DFS/Green
Kleber/Bullock
Porzingis/Powell

LeVert can fill that playmaker role on the 2nd unit for the same cost as THJ.

Let´s be honest, the Pacers have no chance to make the play-in this season. 7.5 games behind the Celtics and the Knicks/Hawks between them, too.

They might be willing to do Levert for THJ + Lamb into the TPE to save them some serious money.

[Omega_Supreme]

By the way keep a eye on the situation in Portland. If Nurkic gets bought out, the Mavs may be able to add big man depth without giving up an asset.

[mvossman]

I have thought for a while there's an angle for THJ to Indy, with Lavert to Dallas, as part of a MT deal.

THJ fits the RC system. Lavert, who can't space the floor so clogs up the flow, does not fit, and his contract is not very enticing. I'd much rather have Lamb (or Warren or Craig) than Lavert, because of money, but I think Indy would prefer them too for the same reaon. So I think the Pacers would LOVE to replace Lavert with THJ, and it would add plus value in getting Turner.

In addition, that 2-for-2 (THJ/DP for MT/CL) lowers the payroll for Indy which is mandatory in any trade (they're right at the tax line).

Once current caution re Turner. He has been dealing with some sort of foot problems, that may be a real issue. Gotta be very wary.

If we could do a Powell + THJ + first for Turner + Lavert I would be all in for that.

Personally, if we are going to stick with KP (and it seems like that is the plan) I don't think Turner is the right target.  I would much rather go after a 4 (or even a 3) to fit with the core of KP/DFS/Luka/Brunson.  Something like:

THJ + Powell for Tobias Harris
Bullock/Powell + second for RoCo
THJ + First for Grant
THJ + Powell + First for Wiggins

[KillerLeft]

Personally, if we are going to stick with KP (and it seems like that is the plan) I don't think Turner is the right target.  I would much rather go after a 4 (or even a 3) to fit with the core of KP/DFS/Luka/Brunson.

HEAR, HEAR!!

[Mavs2021]

By the way keep a eye on the situation in Portland. If Nurkic gets bought out, the Mavs may be able to add big man depth without giving up an asset.

I think he has too much value to be bought out. On the other hand, if they don´t bench him soon, they might make the play-in. Four wins in their last five.

He is such an underrated player. Plus I don´t think his agent can be very good, given that he only got 12.5M per year last time. Maybe we can get him for the MLE in the summer.

[DanSchwartzgan]

HEAR, HEAR!!

Isn’t that the question.  How do you add an upgrade to Maxi/Powell as the fifth starter without giving up any of the other four starters?  And to mvossman’s point, can you do that and add some bench playmaking at the same time.

[KillerLeft]

He is such an underrated player. Plus I don´t think his agent can be very good, given that he only got 12.5M per year last time. Maybe we can get him for the MLE in the summer.

He seems to have a fairly difficult personality. My guess (and it's just a guess) is that him being undervalued and under promoted is probably about that.

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Isn’t that the question.  How do you add an upgrade to Maxi/Powell as the fifth starter without giving up any of the other four starters?  And to mvossman’s point, can you do that and add some bench playmaking at the same time.

That IS a great question, but not what I was trumpeting. 

My support is for the concept that IF the goal is to keep Porzingis, another high-dollar center is the absolute last thing on Earth needed here. 

I'm cool with giving up something to get something as long as that new something isn't a 5 who would need to somehow play with the Mavs' current max-contract (!!) 5.

[KillerLeft]

I've thought about this for like 48 hours now, and I don't think this is just my blind love for the great DFS talking:

I think Turner is worth more than DFS (slightly) and so that would be the basis of a fair deal, but I honestly believe that moving DFS for Turner would make this team worse, and probably significantly so, given the apparent goal to pair any incoming player with Porzingis. 

Please, no more centers, at least not big-name, high-dollar centers who cost assets. 

FORWARDS!

[michaeltex]

I think he has too much value to be bought out. On the other hand, if they don´t bench him soon, they might make the play-in. Four wins in their last five.

He is such an underrated player. Plus I don´t think his agent can be very good, given that he only got 12.5M per year last time. Maybe we can get him for the MLE in the summer.

He was coming back from a severe leg injury followed by a broken wrist, so he probably didn't have the leverage needed to get a better contract.

For some reason, I thought he was matchup limited in POR's playoff series with DEN, but I looked back and he seems to have played well despite defending Jurkic. 

Not sure how he fits with KP though. I'm thinking DAL needs a strong rebounding PF/C who doesn't clog the lane and doesn't require 15 shots per game. Which sounds like a description of Powell or Maxi.

[mvossman]

He was coming back from a severe leg injury followed by a broken wrist, so he probably didn't have the leverage needed to get a better contract.

For some reason, I thought he was matchup limited in POR's playoff series with DEN, but I looked back and he seems to have played well despite defending Jurkic. 

Not sure how he fits with KP though. I'm thinking DAL needs a strong rebounding PF/C who doesn't clog the lane and doesn't require 15 shots per game. Which sounds like a description of Powell or Maxi.

I don't think he would be a good fit with KP.  He would be a good reasonable priced replacement for KP if we traded him.  Given the Blazers situation (which is desperate to please Lillard, currently tanking, has only two quality defensive players who are UFA in a couple of months, and one (Nurkic) who likely will not return) I could see us doing something like KP + Powell + Bullock for CJ + Nurkic + RoCo.  Then trade Brunson for two firsts and Kemba.  At that point you have a starting lineup of Nurkic/RoCo/DFS/Luka/CJ as well as access to all of your picks.

But I think we are keeping KP, so none of that is going to happen.  As far as who fits with KP, I'm not sure Powell fits your description as he is generally a lane clogger.  Actually I think RoCo would make a ton of sense.  He would be a perfect fit to share minutes with Maxi, and he may not be that expensive as he is an expiring on a tanking team.

[Chicagojk]

I've thought about this for like 48 hours now, and I don't think this is just my blind love for the great DFS talking:

I think Turner is worth more than DFS (slightly) and so that would be the basis of a fair deal, but I honestly believe that moving DFS for Turner would make this team worse, and probably significantly so, given the apparent goal to pair any incoming player with Porzingis. 

Please, no more centers, at least not big-name, high-dollar centers who cost assets. 

FORWARDS!

I agree.  If KP wasn't here then I can understand throwing money at centers.   But it appears outside of a handful of guys most teams are looking for centers for the MLE or young guys on rookie contracts.   Centers seem to be falling from trees at this price range.  For the team we have with Luka and Jalen (and hopefully one more creator) having an open court is the best direction imo.   

I really need to watch Turner play more.   My impression is you really feel his presence on defense but the rest of his game is sort of Blah.   Maybe I am missing the appeal and that could certainly be true.   

So my focus short term is find a better Kleber.  Either via trade or use in combination with Kleber at PF.   Add that player and get a backup point guard and then we may have something.   Ideally, the backup point would be a 6'5 to 6'7 player who can offer some positional flexibility.  Josh Green in time??