NBA TRADE TALK: TDL over

[DanSchwartzgan]

I disagree that this is a discount 

Can't help you then.  Milton and Reed were the 54th and 58th pick of their drafts.  Milton is UFA a year later than Brunson, so all you are doing is kicking the can on a significantly inferior player.  If he is the prize of this deal, you can find him or his equivalent every summer without sending out the potential sixth man of the year.  There is no point in locking yourself into Milton at the TDL when Brunson could be part of a much bigger deal in the summer where you have the ability to add in your 2022 pick (after it is made) and use the TPE (through 7/31)

There is nothing you can do if Brunson wants to go to Orlando and be a cellar dweller the rest of his career.  My bet is he doesn't want to do that.  Because of BYC, it will take a fairly significant deal to get him to any good team.  None of the teams you list intended to keep the players mentioned.  They just wanted something more than losing them for nothing.  That isn't the situation here.  Terry Rozier is probably a better example.  Harrison Barnes is another (the deal that brought him here).  No, Brunson isn't Kemba or Durant.  But, Dallas doesn't have to just give Brunson away to an over-the-cap contender for nothing.  Milton and Reed aren't much better than nothing.  This is basically the pipe dream of some writer on a homer Philly website.

[omahen]

Can't help you then.  Milton and Reed were the 54th and 58th pick of their drafts.  Milton is UFA a year later than Brunson, so all you are doing is kicking the can on a significantly inferior player.  If he is the prize of this deal, you can find him or his equivalent every summer without sending out the potential sixth man of the year.  There is no point in locking yourself into Milton at the TDL when Brunson could be part of a much bigger deal in the summer where you have the ability to add in your 2022 pick (after it is made) and use the TPE (through 7/31)

There is nothing you can do if Brunson wants to go to Orlando and be a cellar dweller the rest of his career.  My bet is he doesn't want to do that.  Because of BYC, it will take a fairly significant deal to get him to any good team.  None of the teams you list intended to keep the players mentioned.  They just wanted something more than losing them for nothing.  That isn't the situation here.  Terry Rozier is probably a better example.  Harrison Barnes is another (the deal that brought him here).  No, Brunson isn't Kemba or Durant.  But, Dallas doesn't have to just give Brunson away to an over-the-cap contender for nothing.  Milton and Reed aren't much better than nothing.  This is basically the pipe dream of some writer on a homer Philly website.

Perhaps you overlooked, but I also had protected FRP involved, its not just Milton and Reed. Plus Burke dump. Speaking about my proposal, not the original one from the article. It is also not important which pick those players were, Brunson was 33, if that . Milton is putting up very solid numbers, to an extent actually similar as Brunson. Reed is not playing much, but I really like what I saw. Orlando in the Gordon trade got salary filler, future FRP and last year late FRP rookie Hamilton, who wasn't playing for Denver. One could say in general the price of solid half year rental players is a protected FRP and perhaps a young player. I struggle to see a case where an expiring was paid more. I struggle to see a case where SnT was paid more.

As I said, I think Dallas leverage is quite low, if Brunson wants out in the summer. Is there really so much of a difference if a player wants to leave or if a team wants him gone? Toronto certainly wanted to resign Lowry. They would love to keep him if he would like to stay, but he didn't want to. I guess Butler is same case - Philly would like to keep him but he wanted to go. 

I am not sure how Barnes case relates, as he was signed as a free agent, as far as I can see. Rozier was used as salary filler to facilitate Kemba trade and his main goal was to get paid, which he did. But he didn't get to pick where he wants to go. Do we have more examples like this? There is a possibility that Brunson outgoing contract is used in something bigger, but what is really the possibility of that to happen? A lot of things would have to go right. Brunson would have to play along, the team with the player we want would need to like Brunson or a third team would be involved. We also know that a pick is not worth a lot once it has been made - the time to trade 2022 draft pick trade is draft night, imho and the time for the Dallas move next offseason is draft night, imho. Hard cap also presents potential problem both to the team signing Brunson and to Dallas if the incoming player is a FA (SnT). 

My thinking was more in line with - ok, we get a decent replacement in Milton, a prospect in Reed and a pick to use in the all-in trade in the summer. Didn't cover all the numbers, but it would perhaps also allow Mavs to stay under the tax.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Orlando in the Gordon trade got salary filler, future FRP and last year late FRP rookie Hamilton, who wasn't playing for Denver. One could say in general the price of solid half year rental players is a protected FRP and perhaps a young player.  

I think Hampton and a top five protected pick is much more valuable than what you proposed.  Hampton has more upside and is restricted when his contract is over.  The equivalent on Philly isn't Milton, it is Thybulle or Maxey.  Put one of those guys in the deal with Springer and we can talk.  I have no interesting in giving up on Brunson for JAG Milton who can walk in a year and can be had for fairly small dollars any given summer.

[michaeltex]

All these possibilities are interesting as to the how to do it.

My concern is WHY do it? Although a phenomenal athletic talent, I don't see Simmons bringing anything positive to the Mavs. Why pay $33MM plus annual increases for someone who is (apparently) mentally fragile enough that he is not currently able to play competitive basketball? DAL sure as hell doesn't need to pay that for a reclamation project. One KP is enough.

This will be forever etched in my memory...

[fifteenth]

If I knew that Simmons would come here and that being away from Philly would fix all his STUFF then I might want him. But that's a big if. With all of his STUFF, I'd rather have Brunson.

[SleepingHero]

If I knew that Simmons would come here and that being away from Philly would fix all his STUFF then I might want him. But that's a big if. With all of his STUFF, I'd rather have Brunson.

[dynamicalVoid]

Wow....just last night watching the game I was wondering if Brunson for Maxey makes any sense.  Funny it is mentioned here even if it doesnt make sense.

Maxey is a gamer it seems.   Brunson is a gamer.   I would prefer to not get JAG back for Brunson.

Ben Simmons...

I think you would have to do your homework on Simmons.  My main question in interviewing him would be what he thinks about his past play(refusing to shoot) and if he thinks it was positive or negative to the Philly?  Or does he give round about excuse and try and talk his way out of it by suggesting he was making the best basketball play at the time or it was the supporting cast/coaching that was the problem.

It doesnt matter...we have a good passer that needs shooters around him.   Simmons would have to admit that he was wrong and needs to change his game...or Luka would have to change his.

[fifteenth]

Wow....just last night watching the game I was wondering if Brunson for Maxey makes any sense.  Funny it is mentioned here even if it doesnt make sense.

Maxey is a gamer it seems.   Brunson is a gamer.   I would prefer to not get JAG back for Brunson.

Ben Simmons...

I think you would have to do your homework on Simmons.  My main question in interviewing him would be what he thinks about his past play(refusing to shoot) and if he thinks it was positive or negative to the Philly?  Or does he give round about excuse and try and talk his way out of it by suggesting he was making the best basketball play at the time or it was the supporting cast/coaching that was the problem.

It doesnt matter...we have a good passer that needs shooters around him.   Simmons would have to admit that he was wrong and needs to change his game...or Luka would have to change his.

Right. We'd have to know he's up for the role the Mavs have in mind for him. Many here have suggested a "not the pg" role. Interestingly, we have reports that Brunson and Simmons both want to run a team.

[mvossman]

@"DanSchwartzgan" keep up, my guy. 

We already decided to trade JB/KP for Simmons. 

Next topic.

Are you really sure that is something you want to do?  Ben is such a headcase, I don't have any confidence he will be on the court at full capacity any more than KP will.  He is also more expensive and has an extra year of potential albatross.  He is also a very awkward fit with Luka.  He does not protect the rim and he does not shoot.  Unless we are running Maxi out there as center, we will have two guys clogging up the lane.  Ben and Powell/WCS on the court together would be a shit show offensively.  Maybe you get a Theis or somebody like that but its still hard to see Luka and Ben coexist offensively well.  On top of that, you are dumping Brunson who seems to be growing every year, and as pointed out, there are not a lot of good options for him this coming offseason.  This seems like a panic move.

And given the amount of KP bitching around here, I can't imagine what it will be when Ben starts doing Ben things.

[TXBamanut]

If I knew that Simmons would come here and that being away from Philly would fix all his STUFF then I might want him. But that's a big if. With all of his STUFF, I'd rather have Brunson.

I don't think it's an "IF" at all.  I dont' think he ever becomes a quarter of his potential after this.  This is a really big deal psychologically, and I'm not really buying into the mental health angle from him.

This isn't Frankie who never got a break, never got his shot, bringing a parade of middling vets in to new coach didn't want him and new regime...hard working kid, coachable, good attitude.

This is a guy who's been handed stuff, given stuff, coddled, been begged to just work on a shot with a serious defect in his psyche about the shot.  We aren't talking about someone reluctant to shoot, we are talking about a guy who just flat won't do it...and why?  Because he's afraid he'll miss.
It's gone to the mid range, now the FT line and last year, not even a freakin' layup.

If we had an overabundance of assets and redundancy at positions, like OKC with 1st rounders, I'd take a flier, but in our situation where we have minimal assets to trade, and a roster that has very little roster redundancy...no freakin' way.  That's a gigantic lottery ticket hoping for the powerball type of risk.

People that clamor to trade KP for Ben Simmons are like people who think Alabama is too hot and decide to move to South America....and set themselves on fire...in a sauna suit.

[dirkfansince1998]

People that clamor to trade KP for Ben Simmons are like people who think Alabama is too hot and decide to move to South America....and set themselves on fire...in a sauna suit.

I mean so far the benchmark isn´t exactly high. Play in more than 50% of games. Play solid defense. Simmons is without a doubt even better than the current engaged version of KP on defense. Provide more than 14ppg on 35/25/80 splits on offense.
And the crazy part is that people are already happy with his performance. According to the majority of this board that´s an improvement compared to last season.

Now don´t get me wrong. I have seen some flashes. If KP stays healthy, gets it all together and is willing to accepts a lesser role on offense he could be great.
Question is what is the more likely scenario. That happening or Simmons getting over his mental issues? If I am being honest I don´t think that either scenario is very likely.

[dynamicalVoid]

Man...Yall got me triggered on this Simmons talk...not gonna lie.

Does Simmons have overly large hands?  Because a HUGE red flag with Simmons is someone of his athleticism and talent being trash at Free Throws.  An open ass shot.   There is pressure involved sure...but this is the Big Leagues.   If you cant improve on Free Throws...youre not putting the work to be paid Max money.   Bottom Line.   Free Throws should be the easiest thing to fix for a Big Leagues player.

Have there been any murmurings from within Simmons camp that he admits he is partially to blame for this fall from grace?   As in...does he acknowledge that a lot of the hate and frustration is because of the unwillingness to shoot and that it can hurt a team?   Has anything come to light that suggests he has learned from this fall out?  Anything?  It was a 5 year build up of fans, media and professionals questioning his refusal to shoot.  It wasnt a one year ordeal and the world turned on him.   The world was trying to help him for years before the fall out.   Does he acknowledge any of this?   Does he acknowledge that he wasted 5 years of learning how to shoot in real game time situations?   

An even more interesting question is if he is willing to try new NBA roles?  Is he willing or not?  The answer to this question defines his maturity level, imo.  Not just willing to...but will you?  And will you work like a Max paid player to master this role.

Or...does he stick to the "best basketball play" excuse?   Actually the best basketball play in Simmons situation is if he would have shot the ball more.   Is he relying on the "most efficient basketball play" excuse?

Now...none of this matters if Simmons is playing 4D chess to get moved to another team.

Also...I stand by Embiid and Rivers public outing of Simmons.   It was time to be unconventional.  It put Morey in a tougher situation...but Simmons will grow more from this more than if Embiid and Rivers didnt out him and the Org kept quiet and just traded him.   If that happened Simmons would just continue down the "business as usual" path of not shooting or putting in proper work to get better.

[TXBamanut]

I mean so far the benchmark isn´t exactly high. Play in more than 50% of games. Play solid defense. Simmons is without a doubt even better than the current engaged version of KP on defense. Provide more than 14ppg on 35/25/80 splits on offense.
And the crazy part is that people are already happy with his performance. According to the majority of this board that´s an improvement compared to last season.

Now don´t get me wrong. I have seen some flashes. If KP stays healthy, gets it all together and is willing to accepts a lesser role on offense he could be great.
Question is what is the more likely scenario. That happening or Simmons getting over his mental issues? If I am being honest I don´t think that either scenario is very likely.

I'm not saying it's high and if we can trade him for something better, I'm all for it...but I just don't think Simmons is it.  I think at his worst, he wasn't near what Philly has had to deal with.  I think KP is much more likely than Simmons...I don't think Simmons will happen at all.  We are talking about a guy who has basically regressed yearly in the one area that the league has yearly moved toward....that's significant to me, far beyond any question with KP, really separate from teh KP situation.

AT this point, I see KP's physical health as a better chance of holding up than Simmons mental situation.  That's not about KP, but a baseline to see how I feel about him.  If the Mavs trade for him, I'll cheer for him and back him up, but I won't be feeling good about it until I see some serious proof.

[dynamicalVoid]

Yoooo...hold up

Are yall serious in saying Simmons has a mental condition.  Yall are making it sound like he is unstable.  Using the verbiage "mental condition" is unfair, imo.

Is a reluctance to shoot mental?  Sure.  But you all are making it sound like he is some unstable being that is not worth league minimum due to inability to make it to practice.  Yeah yeah...he isnt practicing now...but its a BS front/business decision.

To suggest the Simmons mental situation is worse than KP's health is just Ludacris...to the point I dont think you would put anything of significant value on the line if you had to bet on the situation.

No one knows if its a mental situation(definitely mental - but how drastic!?) after this ordeal or not.  If his refusal to shoot continues...then yes...its a serious mental flaw(not unstable...and not NBA blacklist-able).  Simmons still has to prove that its a serious mental issue.  Or...youre refusing the possibility that he has been "enlightened".   If he comes back as "an efficient player refusing to shoot" then...yes...he has issues with todays basketball game.

Anway...I just think Simmons is cocky.  I think he thinks he is smart.  I think he thinks passing is cooler than scoring because he is "different"(cocky).   I think he thinks his willingness to pass...even if most efficient play...is better than anyone elses suggestion of how he should play.   Obviously,  if i am right, this attitude has backfired on him.  Has he grown from it is the question.

[Mavs2021]

Kings going downhill fast again...with another Bagley DNP. Wonder whether he´ll ever get down to Powell+Green level.

[cow]

Re: Simmons.  Unlike KP, he has elite on the court skills and his way more durable.  The fit might not be great but I'd take Simmons ten times out of ten.  This team needs a serious shakeup anyway.

[KillerLeft]

Are you really sure that is something you want to do?

---

Kings going downhill fast again...with another Bagley DNP. Wonder whether he´ll ever get down to Powell+Green level.

Oh, I think he has been at that level for a whiiiile.

[KillerLeft]

Regarding Simmons:

I don't see a player with mental issues, I see a selfish, slightly lazy superstar who is engaged in a petty dispute with team officials whom he hates. He's simply trying to win, and the results have long since passed into "cut your nose off to spite your face" territory. It's not great by any stretch, but hey, this is how guys like that come available (it's how the Mavs got Porzingis, kind of). 

Now, if I'm wrong, and we're seeing a man in the midst of a legitimate breakdown, then yeah - getting out from under Porzingis one year earlier would end up being the lesser of two evils. 

But honestly, how popular would the decision to simply let Porzingis walk when his contract expired be around here? If they can turn him into a guy who actually plays (since that's what I'm assuming Simmons is), isn't that way better? At the very least they'd be adding one of the best, long, wing-defenders in the league.

---

Unlike KP, he has elite on the court skills and his way more durable.  The fit might not be great but I'd take Simmons ten times out of ten

[dynamicalVoid]

Regarding Simmons:

I don't see a player with mental issues, I see a selfish, slightly lazy superstar who is engaged in a petty dispute with team officials whom he hates. He's simply trying to win, and the results have long since passed into "cut your nose off to spite your face" territory. It's not great by any stretch, but hey, this is how guys like that come available (it's how the Mavs got Porzingis, kind of). 

Now, if I'm wrong, and we're seeing a man in the midst of a legitimate breakdown, then yeah - getting out from under Porzingis one year earlier would end up being the lesser of two evils. 

But honestly, how popular would the decision to simply let Porzingis walk when his contract expired be around here? If they can turn him into a guy who actually plays (since that's what I'm assuming Simmons is), isn't that way better? At the very least they'd be adding one of the best, long, wing-defenders in the league.

---

Yo...a guy of Simmons athletic caliber that cant hit Free Throws for Max money...I dont know.

He can hate his team all he wants...but if you refuse to shoot and cant hit free throws...are you getting minutes in the playoffs for a serious contender?

And it seems like some of yall are suggesting we measure it out with Philly when we have a capable ball handler/passer...I dont know.  

No doubt Im screaming for a change over of the roster...and Simmons is enticing...but is he the smart move even if gettable?  I dont know.  Seems like an impulsive hope it works type move...like the KP one.

I like his durability and length...but the fit thing seems like desperation on our part unless Simmons was willing to adjust his game.

[ItsGoTime]

I have no doubt in my mind that KP and JB for BS is (edit: NOT...oops) accepted by Morey, so that's why I more tongue-in-cheek said it. I myself said I was out on Simmons once he said he wanted to go to a team where he was THE man. I will say, I thought a couple years ago that Simmons and Luka would be battling it out for MVP soon. That was when I thought he would buckle down and work on his shot. I would do the trade, but its not without a possible downside. I think a fresh start is going to open up Simmons world again, but it is risky to bet on that.