Mavs rotation

[KillerLeft]

“Hey we know we told you that you would be the starter, but the bench really needs your help right now. Can you take one for team and help out as 6th man again?”

Maybe in the future. If you're suggesting that they'd lie to him just to get him to re-sign, I don't see it. The last thing they need is another unhappy high-paid player. I would be shocked if both the player and team haven't reached a consensus on what his role will be in the near future, at least. Hey, who knows - maybe they sold him on a 6th man role during negotiations! I doubt it, but I'd buy that before I'd buy that they deceived him or that they'll change their minds about what was discussed for at least the first half of the first season. 

I've noticed that most people (maybe not you - this part isn't aimed at anyone in particular) who see THJ as a 6th man seem to note "fit with Luka" as part of their reasoning. Without reopening that debate, can I just point out that how these guys fit with Luka is probably the very first box that needed to be checked in each of their cases? In other words, the Mavs think THJ fits quite well with Luka or he wouldn't be here, especially on a four year contract. I feel this is self-evident.

[fifteenth]

Can't imagine THJ not starting. He's the 3rd name written down on that lineup card.

[ItsGoTime]

that they'll change their minds about what was discussed for at least the first half of the first season. 

This is what I was suggesting, IF it is deemed he is needed off the bench more than starting with THIS lineup. I also suggested this should at some point be tried, seeing as the focus from Kidd is defense. Gotta get at least into the top half if the league somehow, if not top 10.

[KillerLeft]

This is what I was suggesting, IF it is deemed he is needed off the bench more than starting with THIS lineup. I also suggested this should at some point be tried, seeing as the focus from Kidd is defense. Gotta get at least into the top half if the league somehow, if not top 10.

Yeah, I just don't think THJ would've been retained if they thought he was the problem on defense. 

I honestly don't think there are very many "good" defenders in the NBA anymore, the rules being enforced the way they are. It's all about team defense - and your center play, of course. 

The defense would've been better last season if they'd have just committed to THJ over Richardson last season, imo. 

But, I don't object to the concept that this is all subject to ongoing review.

[DallasBasketball]

Maybe in the future. If you're suggesting that they'd lie to him just to get him to re-sign, I don't see it. The last thing they need is another unhappy high-paid player. I would be shocked if both the player and team haven't reached a consensus on what his role will be in the near future, at least. Hey, who knows - maybe they sold him on a 6th man role during negotiations! I doubt it, but I'd buy that before I'd buy that they deceived him or that they'll change their minds about what was discussed for at least the first half of the first season. 

I've noticed that most people (maybe not you - this part isn't aimed at anyone in particular) who see THJ as a 6th man seem to note "fit with Luka" as part of their reasoning. Without reopening that debate, can I just point out that how these guys fit with Luka is probably the very first box that needed to be checked in each of their cases? In other words, the Mavs think THJ fits quite well with Luka or he wouldn't be here, especially on a four year contract. I feel this is self-evident.

I probably have too many years watching Ginobili and Terry, so I REALLY respect the 6th man role.

I’m not suggesting anyone lied. I’m just suggesting things can change. Tim was a 6th man for a long time here, but was completely killing it for much of the season and it was obvious he needed to start. 

I personally think he’s starter material. I think that’s obvious too. But I don’t know how much of a negotiation is spent on defining a box around someone’s roles, as opposed to expressing a level of love and respect. 

Listen to my pitch,

“we wanted you here in the NY trade, that’s why we got you, we have believed in you all this time. To us, you earned your value of your previous contract. And we want to reward you with a contract that shows we still really believe in you. The contract will make you the 2nd highest paid Mav next year and you will be the 3rd highest when Luka signs. We want you and Luka to be the lead Guards on this team for as many years forward as possible. We think you can keep growing with Luka and we think this is the perfect environment for you, and we think we can help you further improve. Making you the 2nd highest paid player we are really going to depend on you, do you want to be the guy we rely upon? Sign here to show us you want to be a MFL.”

And I never mentioned starter ;p

Going back to the bench at any point isn’t about demotion. It’s about team. And I know egos are real and at play. But Timmy is MFL like Terry IMO, and if it were obviously going to make the team better(like when he was put at starter), I think Tim would abide.

[mavsluvr]

Maybe in the future. If you're suggesting that they'd lie to him just to get him to re-sign, I don't see it. The last thing they need is another unhappy high-paid player. I would be shocked if both the player and team haven't reached a consensus on what his role will be in the near future, at least. Hey, who knows - maybe they sold him on a 6th man role during negotiations! I doubt it, but I'd buy that before I'd buy that they deceived him or that they'll change their minds about what was discussed for at least the first half of the first season. 

I've noticed that most people (maybe not you - this part isn't aimed at anyone in particular) who see THJ as a 6th man seem to note "fit with Luka" as part of their reasoning. Without reopening that debate, can I just point out that how these guys fit with Luka is probably the very first box that needed to be checked in each of their cases? In other words, the Mavs think THJ fits quite well with Luka or he wouldn't be here, especially on a four year contract. I feel this is self-evident.

It wouldn't totally surprise me to see Tim end up in somewhat of a "true" sixth man role, mostly because I think they will need his scoring punch in non-Luka lineups and they could want him to be fresh for the end of the game (although, he seems to have plenty of stamina and doesn't have a tendency to get in foul trouble). Of course, if that happened, he would still be one of the five most-used guys on the roster, and would be much more important than whoever started in his place, a la DeShawn Stevenson and Jet. But I don't think they start out that way, and may never have to go to it. 

The idea that they someway hoodwinked him into thinking he was going to play a different role than he is seems sort of laughable. They didn't give him that contract to play short minutes. (Realize you aren't saying they did. I'm agreeing with you.)

[mavsluvr]

seeing as the focus from Kidd is defense

I could be misremembering, but I think I have noticed you mentioning that several times as an indicator that defensive players might be favored in minutes over offensive ones this season. (Do I have that right?)


I probably haven't seen everything on that, but the thing I remember is the comments Kidd made when he was introduced. I'm not sure we can read anything in particular into that. It struck me as just the sort of bland stuff coaches say. (When is the last time we heard one of them introduce the season saying the team probably won't pay as much attention to defense in the coming season?) 

We heard the same tune last season, and they even made a couple moves that looked they were going in that direction, but it seemed like they ended up just weakening the offense and not improving the defense. Not all their fault, various balls just didn't bounce their way.

In the end, I hope they do attend more to defense, but I think Kidd will generally go with his best lineups in important games, rather than forcing defensive players on at the expense of the offense. (You may not be saying anything different.)

[DallasBasketball]

Yeah, I just don't think THJ would've been retained if they thought he was the problem on defense. 

I honestly don't think there are very many "good" defenders in the NBA anymore, the rules being enforced the way they are. It's all about team defense - and your center play, of course. 

The defense would've been better last season if they'd have just committed to THJ over Richardson last season, imo. 

But, I don't object to the concept that this is all subject to ongoing review.

My .02 on Tim’s defense is that it’s not part of the problem. I think his defense/size-length-versatility is actually an ASSET on that side of the ball if paired with a quality defensive unit. 

[ItsGoTime]

I could be misremembering, but I think I have noticed you mentioning that several times as an indicator that defensive players might be favored in minutes over offensive ones this season. (Do I have that right?)


I probably haven't seen everything on that, but the thing I remember is the comments Kidd made when he was introduced. I'm not sure we can read anything in particular into that. It struck me as just the sort of bland stuff coaches say. (When is the last time we heard one of them introduce the season saying the team probably won't pay as much attention to defense in the coming season?) 

We heard the same tune last season, and they even made a couple moves that looked they were going in that direction, but it seemed like they ended up just weakening the offense and not improving the defense. Not all their fault, various balls just didn't bounce their way.

In the end, I hope they do attend more to defense, but I think Kidd will generally go with his best lineups in important games, rather than forcing defensive players on at the expense of the offense. (You may not be saying anything different.)

I’m not, it will and SHOULD come down to what lineups play together the best as a whole to win games. With this team right now, that means THJ plays a lot. It also may mean we stay in the bottom third in the league as a defensive team (I’m not putting that all on THJ, but more on the mentality of if we’re going to keep acquiring and playing lesser defenders, then Kidd is doing no different than RC in only giving lip service to D).


I originally talked about how RC said this same thing at the beginning of the season every season and we didn’t see much improvement in that aspect in general (based on team defensive rankings). I hope that changes with Kidd and it’s not just lip service!

[KillerLeft]

I probably have too many years watching Ginobili and Terry, so I REALLY respect the 6th man role.

Great point, and me too! And, I get the connection people make between THJ and those guys. Stackhouse and Van Exel are great examples of Mav 6th men, too. 

But, it doesn't seem like THJ has enjoyed playing in that role, or that he has particularly flourished in it, either.

[DallasBasketball]

or that he has particularly flourished in it, either.

This is actually the greatest point of all. If he’s flourished as a starter, he’s probably best starting. lol, well said.

[omahen]

Great point, and me too! And, I get the connection people make between THJ and those guys. Stackhouse and Van Exel are great examples of Mav 6th men, too. 

But, it doesn't seem like THJ has enjoyed playing in that role, or that he has particularly flourished in it, either.

Both Ginobili and Terry could create, for themselves and others. THJ can't really, he needs Luka and is best playing with Luka.

[KillerLeft]

Both Ginobili and Terry could create, for themselves and others. THJ can't really, he needs Luka and is best playing with Luka.

Absolutely right. Bingo. 

However, I will say that Hardaway's ability to do basic things like attack closeouts seemed improved to me last year over the year before. But yes, I totally agree with the distinction you've made.

[cow]

Absolutely right. Bingo. 

However, I will say that Hardaway's ability to do basic things like attack closeouts seemed improved to me last year over the year before. But yes, I totally agree with the distinction you've made.

THJ does a pretty good job attacking the rim.  The problem is that he gets zero love from officials.

[fifteenth]

THJ does a pretty good job attacking the rim.  The problem is that he gets zero love from officials.

I was too lazy to go find stats to back this up, but he seems pretty effiient on drives.

[chaparral]

So if HOF coach Kidd can restore KP back to Unicorn status, why couldn't he be able to bring back bubble Burke?

[fifteenth]

HOF coach Kidd

Do we get to call him HOF coach?

[chaparral]

Do we get to call him HOF coach?

Your right - HOF PG, coach Kidd...

[fifteenth]

Your right - HOF PG, coach Kidd...

I was playing with the options in my head when I typed my question.

HOFer, Coach Kidd

Coach Kidd, HOFer

Yours fits the point you were making about Burke

[soog]

This is actually the greatest point of all. If he’s flourished as a starter, he’s probably best starting. lol, well said.

I have several thoughts on this idea that Timmy didn't flourish as a bench player and only showed promise as a starter.  Before I share them I'll share some analysis I did of Timmy’s stats as a starter vs coming off of the bench over the last two years.

I tried attaching a screenshot, though I'm not really sure how to do it.  Hopefully it shows up.