Mavs rotation

[KillerLeft]

He definitely said it. Can't remember where/when.

Well, I like that a lot.

Does he know who his centers are????

[ItsGoTime]

No argument. 

I am just suggesting that salary hierarchy MATTERS in the NBA probably more than people realize.

I think I explained my position well enough to not be put in this group you’re suggesting is out there. 


Things can change and what was intent when a player was signed doesn’t mean that has to stay that way. Like I said, if DFS can improve on his 3 shot to close to the percentage and attempts THJ does, he’s clearly a starter because of what he also brings on defense. The same is true of Bullock, although, he seems pretty close to THJ’s production already.

[cow]

My dark horse pick for 10 minutes a game is Feron Hunt.

[soog]

When did he say this???? I was wondering, and we actually talked about it around here after the hire, but then @"dirkfansince1998" pointed out that his teams Milwaukee and Brooklyn both played at a slow pace. Plus, Luka seems to prefer a slower pace, honestly. 

I'd love a little more running though.

I am fairly certain he said it the day he was introduced to the media, but I can’t find any direct quotes now that I’m looking for it.

I wonder if this is also related to his comments about how KP will be used differently.  How do you get your mobile seven footer more involved without clogging up the lane?  Ship him down the floor early and often.  No break? Quick post before the defense gets set, then set a back screen for a wing diving to the basket to start the offense.  

Opposing teams would need two strong, long, and mobile defenders to match up with a running KP and Luka.

[Chicagojk]

I really hope Green earns minutes.  He needs them.  Although him not getting anytime for a veteran Australia Olympic team is sort of depressing a little.

I was not that familiar with Bullock, but noticed it appears he has missed a lot of games.   

Here is his games played:
2015- 37
2016- 31
2017- 62
2018- 63
2019- 29
2020- 65

I am not sure if these are injuries or DNP (especially earlier in his career).   I read he had a back injury that may have caused a lower salary when he went to the Knicks.   Anyway, a little concerning about the low # of games.

[mavsluvr]

I think I explained my position well enough to not be put in this group you’re suggesting is out there. 


Things can change and what was intent when a player was signed doesn’t mean that has to stay that way. Like I said, if DFS can improve on his 3 shot to close to the percentage and attempts THJ does, he’s clearly a starter because of what he also brings on defense. The same is true of Bullock, although, he seems pretty close to THJ’s production already.

I don't really see THJ and DFS being in much of a competition for each other's slots. They have very different roles and skill sets. I believe their three-point percentages are already similar, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because THJ takes and makes much more difficult shots. 

DFS is a 3&D guy. He scores mostly on catch-and-shoots and cuts to the basket. His slow release is not a problem, because he only takes open shots. He usually defends the opponent's best perimeter scorer. 

THJ is a volume shooter and scorer. He moves off the ball to create passing angles, and only needs a sliver of space and time to get off a shot. He also has some ability to get by opponents on drives to the basket. He is expected to take and make difficult, contested shots. DFS can't do what THJ does, even if he takes more threes. (Likewise, THJ is no competition for DFS on the defensive end.) 

I think sometimes we get frustrated when THJ has a bad shooting night, and get baited into thinking that he is some sort of second-rate guy, maybe a borderline starter on a good night. Three-point shooting is a high-variance action. A 39% shooter will shoot 59% some nights and 19% others. It's just the nature of the beast. If THJ were Steph Curry, he would be getting $200M+, not $74M. There's no question that he's an impact starter in the NBA. I think his competition/backup was supposed to be the as-yet-unsigned playmaker/scorer. 

Bullock might back up/compete with DFS, as they are both 3&D players. If they don't get another playmaker/scorer, he might end up backing up THJ, but it won't be in the same role. (Or, if Bullock can really play that role, the Mavs have themselves a steal.)

One of the recent podcasts (sorry, I can't remember which one) was reporting (as opposed to speculating) that the Mavs are viewing their core as Luka/KP/THJ. Of course, that could change, as you mention. But fans who are hoping/expecting that Hardaway is going to fade into the woodwork might well end up disappointed.

[DanSchwartzgan]

One of the recent podcasts (sorry, I can't remember which one) was reporting (as opposed to speculating) that the Mavs are viewing their core as Luka/KP/THJ. Of course, that could change, as you mention. But fans who are hoping/expecting that Hardaway is going to fade into the woodwork might well end up disappointed.

The nice thing about THJ is he can play either SG or SF and that creates flexibility with how we use players 4-8.  If you want maximum D, start Bullock and DFS.  Need more size, Maxi (or LM) starts and moves someone to the bench.  We know is is possible for KP to get some minutes at the 4 or the 5, so WC-P could also be a factor.  I don’t think he will start, but Brunson is even a factor in terms of playing with the “Core 3”.

One thing I’m curious about is whether we will use more of a platooned look or continue to stagger Luka and KP much of the game.  Is there enough O in a bench unit of DP/Maxi/Green/Sterling/Brunson?  Who could we add to make it better?

[Branduil]

I suspect both Bullock and DFS will start unless the other team is one of the few with an explosive, athletic 4, in which case Kleber will get the nod.

[mavsluvr]

The nice thing about THJ is he can play either SG or SF and that creates flexibility with how we use players 4-8.  If you want maximum D, start Bullock and DFS.  Need more size, Maxi (or LM) starts and moves someone to the bench.  We know is is possible for KP to get some minutes at the 4 or the 5, so WC-P could also be a factor.  I don’t think he will start, but Brunson is even a factor in terms of playing with the “Core 3”.

One thing I’m curious about is whether we will use more of a platooned look or continue to stagger Luka and KP much of the game.  Is there enough O in a bench unit of DP/Maxi/Green/Sterling/Brunson?  Who could we add to make it better?

I don't think there is. Do you?

As far as the staggering issues, I would look for them to try to keep two of the Luka/KP/THJ trio on the floor at all times.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I don't think there is. Do you?

As far as the staggering issues, I would look for them to try to keep two of the Luka/KP/THJ trio on the floor at all times.

Probably not.  Put LM in place of Maxi and I think Powell, LM, Green, Sterling and Brunson probably works as a platoon.

What I’d like to do is see if Luka/KP can really work.  We won’t ever know if they average 18-20 minutes together and 16 minutes with one without the other.  I think about our most used five man lineup being +12 last year and want more of that (except put Bullock in place of JRich).  

My guess is for me to get what I want, assuming the roster stays the same, is Green will get a few minutes with the starters as the first guy off the bench as THJ sits (maybe Maxi comes in at the same time).  That way THJ can come back with the other bench guys and provide some O.  It is a pretty limited role for Green, but he’s more likely to be successful in it than part of a bench platoon where they need him to do more.

[mavsluvr]

Probably not.  Put LM in place of Maxi and I think Powell, LM, Green, Sterling and Brunson probably works as a platoon.

What I’d like to do is see if Luka/KP can really work.  We won’t ever know if they average 18-20 minutes together and 16 minutes with one without the other.  I think about our most used five man lineup being +12 last year and want more of that (except put Bullock in place of JRich).  

I suspect the Mavs are also eager to see if that duo can work. Twenty minutes a night might be enough, I don't know.

If they had gotten their other playmaker/scorer and rim runner/interior defender, pushing a couple of the current starters to the bench, they could probably experiment with an actual bench unit that comes in and out together. But with the situation as it is, I imagine they will have to mix the starters in with the bench most of the time. 

My guess is for me to get what I want, assuming the roster stays the same, is Green will get a few minutes with the starters as the first guy off the bench as THJ sits (maybe Maxi comes in at the same time).  That way THJ can come back with the other bench guys and provide some O.  It is a pretty limited role for Green, but he’s more likely to be successful in it than part of a bench platoon where they need him to do more.

Do I correctly interpret that what you want is for Green to get some meaningful minutes? I agree that the best environment for him is to play with mostly starters. But, unless he has made a leap on the offensive end during the summer, those would seem to be developmental minutes, moreso than actually heavily relying on him.  

Do you see things differently?

[DanSchwartzgan]

Do you see things differently?

Yes to your last paragraph in blue.  I see several benefits.  If Green comes in for say the last six minutes of the first and third quarters, there is a consistent role with a consistent group.  Subbing out THJ first allows him to return with the four bench players and while not a creator, he can certainly help that group.  Doing it that way means more KP/Luka time together.  We won’t go anywhere if they can’t impose their will the final six minutes of the game.  But, they will never be able to do that if all they play together is the first few minutes of each half.

The issue with such a plan is it takes THJ away from his Luka security blanket.  An $18mm player should be able to stand on his own without said security blanket.  I think my preference would actually be to make LM/Brunson our sixth and seventh men and surround them with WC-P, Green and Sterling.  I think that group has enough O and keeps the starters together more while still giving Green a consistent role.

[mavsluvr]

Yes to your last paragraph in blue.  I see several benefits.  If Green comes in for say the last six minutes of the first and third quarters, there is a consistent role with a consistent group.  Subbing out THJ first allows him to return with the four bench players and while not a creator, he can certainly help that group.  Doing it that way means more KP/Luka time together.  We won’t go anywhere if they can’t impose their will the final six minutes of the game.  But, they will never be able to do that if all they play together is the first few minutes of each half.

The issue with such a plan is it takes THJ away from his Luka security blanket.  An $18mm player should be able to stand on his own without said security blanket.  I think my preference would actually be to make LM/Brunson our sixth and seventh men and surround them with WC-P, Green and Sterling.  I think that group has enough O and keeps the starters together more while still giving Green a consistent role.

I don't have strong opinions on the subject, really just spitballing. 

Interesting thoughts! Something to keep an eye on!

[KillerLeft]

I don't really see THJ and DFS being in much of a competition for each other's slots. They have very different roles and skill sets. I believe their three-point percentages are already similar, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because THJ takes and makes much more difficult shots. 

DFS is a 3&D guy. He scores mostly on catch-and-shoots and cuts to the basket. His slow release is not a problem, because he only takes open shots. He usually defends the opponent's best perimeter scorer. 

THJ is a volume shooter and scorer. He moves off the ball to create passing angles, and only needs a sliver of space and time to get off a shot. He also has some ability to get by opponents on drives to the basket. He is expected to take and make difficult, contested shots. DFS can't do what THJ does, even if he takes more threes. (Likewise, THJ is no competition for DFS on the defensive end.) 

I think sometimes we get frustrated when THJ has a bad shooting night, and get baited into thinking that he is some sort of second-rate guy, maybe a borderline starter on a good night. Three-point shooting is a high-variance action. A 39% shooter will shoot 59% some nights and 19% others. It's just the nature of the beast. If THJ were Steph Curry, he would be getting $200M+, not $74M. There's no question that he's an impact starter in the NBA. I think his competition/backup was supposed to be the as-yet-unsigned playmaker/scorer. 

Bullock might back up/compete with DFS, as they are both 3&D players. If they don't get another playmaker/scorer, he might end up backing up THJ, but it won't be in the same role. (Or, if Bullock can really play that role, the Mavs have themselves a steal.)

One of the recent podcasts (sorry, I can't remember which one) was reporting (as opposed to speculating) that the Mavs are viewing their core as Luka/KP/THJ. Of course, that could change, as you mention. But fans who are hoping/expecting that Hardaway is going to fade into the woodwork might well end up disappointed.

Greatness. There are like three points made in here that I've been trying to make over and over for two years, each time with walls of text. You make them each crystal clear in one 3-4 sentence paragraph.

[KillerLeft]

@"DanSchwartzgan" how sure are you that Green has factored so heavily into their early plans as your plans suggest? Is this something you feel confident that the situation suggests, logically, or is it more of what you hope they do?

[DallasBasketball]

I’ve been wanting to put in my .02 on Green so here goes.

I don’t think summer league will tell us much. Maybe it will hint toward his progress as a player but not whether he is rotation ready.

Going off last season I felt he was good enough to be forced into the rotation but he hasn’t shown anything to demand he be in the rotation. And I’m afraid that’s where we will be this year. 

Player development under Carlisle always seemed to take a LONG time or be instantaneous, and other than in the dog days after dirk’s prime have we really ever forced development. Given the stakes of seeding position, we are still in no place to force development.

But Kidd may see it differently. He might encourage development more than Carlisle did. If he does I’d like to see a steady dose of Terry (5 min in first half, ? 2nd half) and more Green(5+min 1st half, 5 min 2nd half). 

Best case scenario is Josh demands to play bc he looks like an nba rotation player at some point, in which he could be a solid contributor at 20min per game. But I won’t hold my breath. I really think he can be the type of player that can add impact to this roster.

[ItsGoTime]

I don't really see THJ and DFS being in much of a competition for each other's slots. They have very different roles and skill sets. I believe their three-point percentages are already similar, but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because THJ takes and makes much more difficult shots. 

What I was trying to say is there is the possibility of overlap depending on improvement, declining and possible fit in whatever system Kidd brings to this group. Kidd talked the same defense game that RC did for years, if Kidd is more serious about that and THJ starts out the season making big mistakes on defense, does Kidd correct by starting guys who have the better defensive acumen. 


I think of it as 2 of the 3 in DFS, THJ and RB with the odd man out playing a big role off the bench. Could be all 3 starting and Kleber shows the better defensive ability so he (edit: THJ) loses the start to him. I mainly think of it as “we’ll see when we see”. I agree that the starting spot is THJ’s to lose to start the season. Will he keep it is the question.

[ItsGoTime]

@"DanSchwartzgan" how sure are you that Green has factored so heavily into their early plans as your plans suggest? Is this something you feel confident that the situation suggests, logically, or is it more of what you hope they do?

I won’t speak for Dan, but I think the fact that Green was one of few guys Kidd talked about in his introduction press conference points to what Dan is saying.

[KillerLeft]

I won’t speak for Dan, but I think the fact that Green was one of few guys Kidd talked about in his introduction press conference points to what Dan is saying.

That's a good point, and I'm sure they want Green to be something here. How could they not? 

I'm just seeing a ton of wings (hell yeah!) and I'm not extremely confident that he's better than any of them right now. My best guess is that he finds himself in early competition with Sterling Brown and Burke for 4th guard minutes. Those are different kinds of players, obviously, but I can make make a fairly believable argument for any of the three of them taking that minor role (not many minutes, honestly) and I just don't know how clear it can be right now how that will shake out. 

If it's Green who becomes the most regular occupant of that role, was Sterling Brown a good use of the BAE? 

I guess it's also possible that they REALLY want to play 5-out, like a lot, and Kleber will share minutes at the 4 with DFS (like more than DFS has played there in the past). That would probably open up a bigger backup role for Green to take some minutes behind Bullock and DFS (though still not a ton, right?). 

Or, maybe it's even more drastic and they're going to more consistently play two guards with Luka. That would mean Sterling Brown and Green are probably both very needed as regulars. 

Idk...it's fascinating. As much as I hated to see Carlisle go, I admit that the unknown aspect of all of this is intriguing.

[cow]

Feron is on the Hunt for Green's playing time.