Rate Donnie Nelson and Mark Cuban's job performance over the last 2 years

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Welp, seems like we've almost talked the entire off-season to death already, and the body of this year's team isn't even cold. What the hell are we going to do all summer and fall????

waiting on @"DanSchwartzgan" to post his crazy ideas 

[hakeemfaan]

Yeah, the biggest issue is KP, and that's obvious now. SO, people's current temperatures on Carlisle are probably informed primarily by how they view that failure.

If you look at KP and see a star being wasted, you probably think Carlisle needs to go. 

If you look at KP and see a guy who just flat out didn't or couldn't bring it this year, then you probably feel pretty sympathetic towards Carlisle about the situation he was in this season.

---

This is fair. 

Carlisle's number one goal has to be developing a great working relationship with Luka, if he hasn't already. I think one of the things people don't want to believe but that is starting to seem likely to me is that Luka and KP simply don't like each other very much. If true, that might've created a triangle that made it even harder for Carlisle/KP to successfully work together.

Tim McMahon’s article a few hours ago makes it sound as if RC and Luka have issues too. So should we fire RC on the basis of that?

If Luka doesn’t like KP, could it not be that some of it is Luka’s fault too?  Luka has a high usage rate, doesn’t seem to want to play off the ball for long stretches, and expects others to fall in line. But KP is more talented than others on this roster. Is it wrong for him to feel he is not being used correctly?  I don’t disagree that KP’s personality when that happens is that he tends to pout and Jack up bad shots. But maybe we are looking at the symptoms than the cause?

For those talking about Collins, Collins had a similar issue with Trae earlier this year. Why do we assume that the next star we get will automatically be fine with Luka’s usage rate or just asked to adjust to whatever Luka decides to do on a particular play?  Most stars have egos and won’t put up with that. 

That is why if it comes to a player who might be a 2nd star vs a coach then I would rather part with the coach. As I said, if I am wrong and it turns out that RC was judged too harshly that is fine. Ty Lue has a title. Steve Nash might win one.  This is a star driven league.

[KillerLeft]

So should we fire RC on the basis of that?

If that's true, then yeah, Carlisle will be fired.

[Scott41theMavs]

Speaking of Luka, he confounds me too.  He picks up everyone of his teammates except for KP.  Tim and Dorian make a lot of blunders, but you'll never find a bigger cheerleader for them than Luka.  

Luka is to the Mavs after his third year at least what LeBron was to the Cavs after his third year. He is the most important player in the entire league for a team to keep happy. He may be a 22-year-old immature kid, but if he says "KP is garbage and I don't want to play with him" - whether for on- or off-court reasons - then that's 3:16 and we're done here. The FO seeing it any different, *if* that's what happened, would be a binary and very dangerous error.

[dirkfansince1998]

Welp, seems like we've almost talked the entire off-season to death already, and the body of this year's team isn't even cold. What the hell are we going to do all summer and fall????

Need to bring in @"fifteenth"  to find a good offseason topic. Something that is even more polarizing than some of the Mavs takes.

[KillerLeft]

If Luka doesn’t like KP, could it not be that some of it is Luka’s fault too?

Of course! He's 22, and probably quite less mature than we here imagine. I work with 22 year old kids, and specifically the kind who are the best in the world at what they do - they're retarded, just like all 22 year olds. I read somewhere that the male brain doesn't even finish developing until around 25. 

It could be ALL his fault, and KP and Carlisle are still both getting fired before Luka.

[dirkfansince1998]

Tim McMahon’s article a few hours ago makes it sound as if RC and Luka have issues too. So should we fire RC on the basis of that?

If Luka doesn’t like KP, could it not be that some of it is Luka’s fault too?  Luka has a high usage rate, doesn’t seem to want to play off the ball for long stretches, and expects others to fall in line. But KP is more talented than others on this roster. Is it wrong for him to feel he is not being used correctly?  I don’t disagree that KP’s personality when that happens is that he tends to pout and Jack up bad shots. But maybe we are looking at the symptoms than the cause?

For those talking about Collins, Collins had a similar issue with Trae earlier this year. Why do we assume that the next star we get will automatically be fine with Luka’s usage rate or just asked to adjust to whatever Luka decides to do on a particular play?  Most stars have egos and won’t put up with that. 

That is why if it comes to a player who might be a 2nd star vs a coach then I would rather part with the coach. As I said, if I am wrong and it turns out that RC was judged too harshly that is fine. Ty Lue has a title. Steve Nash might win one.  This is a star driven league.

Easiest way to fix this when we are talking about starts. Find a guard or wing that can do something of the dribble.

[hakeemfaan]

Easiest way to fix this when we are talking about starts. Find a guard or wing that can do something of the dribble.

Lonzo can be infuriating with his lack of offense and his poor FT percentage but IMO he should be target#1.

[cow]

Luka is to the Mavs after his third year at least what LeBron was to the Cavs after his third year. He is the most important player in the entire league for a team to keep happy. He may be a 22-year-old immature kid, but if he says "KP is garbage and I don't want to play with him" - whether for on- or off-court reasons - then that's 3:16 and we're done here. The FO seeing it any different, *if* that's what happened, would be a binary and very dangerous error.

Duh.  That's beside the point.

If Luka doesn’t like KP, could it not be that some of it is Luka’s fault too?  Luka has a high usage rate, doesn’t seem to want to play off the ball for long stretches, and expects others to fall in line. But KP is more talented than others on this roster. Is it wrong for him to feel he is not being used correctly?  I don’t disagree that KP’s personality when that happens is that he tends to pout and Jack up bad shots. But maybe we are looking at the symptoms than the cause?

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

[KillerLeft]

That is why if it comes to a player who might be a 2nd star vs a coach then I would rather part with the coach. As I said, if I am wrong and it turns out that RC was judged too harshly that is fine. Ty Lue has a title. Steve Nash might win one.  This is a star driven league.

Yeah, I completely buy this, and the way you articulated the whole post. 

At the end of the day, you think KP is a star, and I think he's faaaaaar from it. That's the difference. I don't even think he's remotely close to being the 2nd best player on the roster. Maybe I'M wrong about that, but that is point at which my thinking diverges from yours.

[hakeemfaan]

Yeah, I completely buy this, and the way you articulated the whole post. 

At the end of the day, you think KP is a star, and I think he's faaaaaar from it. That's the difference. I don't even think he's remotely close to being the 2nd best player on the roster. Maybe I'M wrong about that, but that is point at which my thinking diverges from yours.

No. I might not be saying it correctly. I don’t know if KP is a legit 2nd star. I was sure he was when he got injured last year. I am not sure if he is anymore. 

If I was certain he was a legit 2nd star then I absolutely fire RC right now. But I am not saying that because I am not sure about KP  All I am saying is not that I want RC gone, but that I would rather have RC go first before getting rid of KP just because it is much more important to have a 2nd star than a great coach. Knowing how difficult it is to get even a 3rd tier star, let alone a 2nd tier star, I would first try another coach than get rid of KP IF it came to that.

[cow]

No. I might not be saying it correctly. I don’t know if KP is a legit 2nd star. I was sure he was when he got injured last year. I am not sure if he is anymore. 

If I was certain he was a legit 2nd star then I absolutely fire RC right now. But I am not saying that because I am not sure about KP  All I am saying is not that I want RC gone, but that I would rather have RC go first before getting rid of KP just because it is much more important to have a 2nd star than a great coach. Knowing how difficult it is to get even a 3rd tier star, let alone a 2nd tier star, I would first try another coach than get rid of KP IF it came to that.

Rick or not, I think the KP ship has sailed.  With the rosiest of goggles, Luka and he have no on court chemistry but I think their issues are deeper seeded than that.  I just don't see a scenario that KP doesn't ask to be traded.

[KillerLeft]

No. I might not be saying it correctly. I don’t know if KP is a legit 2nd star. I was sure he was when he got injured last year. I am not sure if he is anymore. 

If I was certain he was a legit 2nd star then I absolutely fire RC right now. But I am not saying that because I am not sure about KP  All I am saying is not that I want RC gone, but that I would rather have RC go first before getting rid of KP just because it is much more important to have a 2nd star than a great coach. Knowing how difficult it is to get even a 3rd tier star, let alone a 2nd tier star, I would first try another coach than get rid of KP IF it came to that.

Right, I'm with you. Thanks for the clarification. 

I'm saying that I believe there is a 0% chance KP will ever again be mistaken for any type of star. I get that you're not sure yet, and the distinction between where you are and thinking he is a star for sure. I just think I've seen enough to decide, once and for all.

If the book was still open for me, I might be leaning more in your direction. And, who knows? Maybe an off-season will do him some good, and it will be a night and day difference next year. But I just can't get there. I would want him gone even if it wasn't him or RC (and it might not be). I just want him gone, period.

[hakeemfaan]

Rick or not, I think the KP ship has sailed.  With the rosiest of goggles, Luka and he have no on court chemistry but I think their issues are deeper seeded than that.  I just don't see a scenario that KP doesn't ask to be traded.

Hope Cuban has a long talk with both of them before any hasty decision. As mentioned other stars have had issues too and needed to clear up the air. All these stars have massive egos and have been the center of attention throughout their lives. I think KP is fine with ceding the limelight to Luka. What he is not fine with is just asked to be one of the other 4 when Luka is on the court. He believes he is more talented than that. The next star you get will feel the same. So that problem has to be addressed now or later. 

I totally agree that I am not a fan of KP giving less effort on defense or pouting and jacking up bad shots because he feels slighted. Let’s see where this ends up.

[cow]

Hope Cuban has a long talk with both of them before any hasty decision. As mentioned other stars have had issues too and needed to clear up the air. All these stars have massive egos and have been the center of attention throughout their lives. I think KP is fine with ceding the limelight to Luka. What he is not fine with is just asked to be one of the other 4 when Luka is on the court. He believes he is more talented than that. The next star you get will feel the same. So that problem has to be addressed now or later. 

I totally agree that I am not a fan of KP giving less effort on defense or pouting and jacking up bad shots because he feels slighted. Let’s see where this ends up.

I'm 100% with you on another star facing similar issues with playing alongside Luka.  Luka shares the blame as does coach.  I don't really think Rick can coach Luka like how he'd want to either, but that's a different discussion.

I think the folly of trying to rehab the KP/Luka relationship goes back to my "rosiest goggles" assessment.  They just have no chemistry with one another and it has seemingly gotten worse and culminated in what we saw in the playoffs.  

Moving on just seems to make too much sense for all parties involved.  I don't hate KP and think he's a heck of a lot better than what we've seen, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd be happy to be free of the injury concern.

[Scott41theMavs]

No. I might not be saying it correctly. I don’t know if KP is a legit 2nd star. I was sure he was when he got injured last year. I am not sure if he is anymore. 

If I was certain he was a legit 2nd star then I absolutely fire RC right now. But I am not saying that because I am not sure about KP  All I am saying is not that I want RC gone, but that I would rather have RC go first before getting rid of KP just because it is much more important to have a 2nd star than a great coach. Knowing how difficult it is to get even a 3rd tier star, let alone a 2nd tier star, I would first try another coach than get rid of KP IF it came to that.

But it has come to that. No chance both RC and KP are here next year.

[hakeemfaan]

I'm 100% with you on another star facing similar issues with playing alongside Luka.  Luka shares the blame as does coach.  I don't really think Rick can coach Luka like how he'd want to either, but that's a different discussion.

I think the folly of trying to rehab the KP/Luka relationship goes back to my "rosiest goggles" assessment.  They just have no chemistry with one another and it has seemingly gotten worse and culminated in what we saw in the playoffs.  

Moving on just seems to make too much sense for all parties involved.  I don't hate KP and think he's a heck of a lot better than what we've seen, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I'd be happy to be free of the injury concern.

I would like to see one more shot at making it work but you might well be right. McMahon touched on this also in his latest article.

[KillerLeft]

I would like to see one more shot at making it work but you might well be right.

Well Hell, maybe Carlisle, Kris and Luka should all meat up with Holger this summer in Australia and go on a walkabout. I'm up for it if they are!

[cow]

Well Hell, maybe Carlisle, Kris and Luka should all meat up with Holger this summer in Australia and go on a walkabout. I'm up for it if they are!

Not for nothing, but if there is any hope to salvage KP, I think the answer lies with Dirk.

[dirkfansince1998]

Not for nothing, but if there is any hope to salvage KP, I think the answer lies with Dirk.

Defensive foot work is already on a similar level.