Rate Donnie Nelson and Mark Cuban's job performance over the last 2 years

[KillerLeft]

2) How much RC gets NONE of the blame.


RC made a LOT of mistakes this season and postseason and got very little out of some of his players....he also made some good decisions and got a lot out of some mediocre players. He is a massive mixed bag.

Well, illustrating the opinion that Carlisle has been far from THE THING that's holding the team back and that firing him probably isn't the answer isn't even on the same planet as giving him none of the blame. I'm sure there are some people who see the issue in a binary light, but not every point made is a pendulum swing from one side to the other.

[Kammrath]

Well, illustrating the opinion that Carlisle has been far from THE THING that's holding the team back and that firing him probably isn't the answer isn't even on the same planet as giving him none of the blame. I'm sure there are some people who see the issue in a binary light, but not every point made is a pendulum swing from one side to the other.

There are just a number of posters that I see constantly defending him despite the pretty obvious (to me) flaws and mistakes he has made this year and in the last 10 years. 

I just feel the whole RC subject has become radically polarized and I wish we could talk about it as a forum with more nuance.

[KillerLeft]

I just feel the whole RC subject has become radically polarized and I wish we talk about it as a forum with more nuance.

Yeah, that's true. I feel like most topics are like that around here though. But yeah, nuance is good.

[Kammrath]

nuance is good

[Scott41theMavs]

Yeah, this HAS to be factored in. 

I am in shock at TWO things:

1) How much RC gets ALL the blame.

2) How much RC gets NONE of the blame.


RC made a LOT of mistakes this season and postseason and got very little out of some of his players....he also made some good decisions and got a lot out of some mediocre players. He is a massive mixed bag.

This is my take - along with, he's a good enough coach that, if you move on from him, you'd better hit a World Series-winning grand slam on his replacement, or there's going to be bigtime egg on the FO's face.

[SwisherPrice]

When referencing the MBT, I always assume RC is part of it too. They are all tied at the hip...I doubt Donnie and Cuban are doing their own thing and just let RC inherit whatever pieces they give him. I'm sure RC has tons of influence on the players he wants, from free agents to prospects drafted. 

If/when heads start to roll at some point though, he will be the first to go. I believe he has 1-2 more years for them to at least make it out of the 1st round.

If they fail again next year, it depends on the situation. Ex: being a #5-#8 seed and losing to a better team again vs. being a #1-#4 seed and losing to a lesser team. If they lose to a lesser team, I think he's done.

However, in 2023, if they're still getting bounced early then he's done...it doesn't matter the circumstances.

Donnie is safe as long as Luka is a Mav. If the doomsday scenario of Luka leaving finally happens some day, Donnie will be done and Cuban probably sells the team.

[Scott41theMavs]

I don't think RC's job should be safe, but he shouldn't be replaced just to replace him.

His job should be safe this offseason unless the FO holds him responsible for KP's season (which would be a mistake, IMHO). Going into the coming year, his seat ought to be getting warm.

[hakeemfaan]

Well, illustrating the opinion that Carlisle has been far from THE THING that's holding the team back and that firing him probably isn't the answer isn't even on the same planet as giving him none of the blame. I'm sure there are some people who see the issue in a binary light, but not every point made is a pendulum swing from one side to the other.

The NBA is a game of stars. The coach could not figure out how to integrate Luka and KP. He could not figure out how to run a certain number of plays with KP as the primary option. 

Is that all RC’s fault? Obviously not. KP and to a certain extent Luka also deserves blame along with Donnie.  However the coach absolutely deserves scrutiny on that. KP for all his flaws is still more irreplaceable than the head coach. That is just the reality of the NBA. I would rather see if another coach can try to make this combo work before giving up KP.  If that fails and the loss in trying that out was that we judged RC too harshly, that is fine. As I said, the NBA is a star driven league.  Even Pops needed a Duncan or a Kawhi.

[ItsGoTime]

There are just a number of posters that I see constantly defending him despite the pretty obvious (to me) flaws and mistakes he has made this year and in the last 10 years. 

I just feel the whole RC subject has become radically polarized and I wish we talk about it as a forum with more nuance.

There have been attempts to do this, it’s always been met with someone adamantly defending it with a response like, RC has forgotten more about basketball than we’ll ever know. No chance at discussion when that is the biggest reply. Also, there is many times not a lot of people who get into that nuanced/specific and targeted discussion.

[cow]

His job should be safe this offseason unless the FO holds him responsible for KP's season (which would be a mistake, IMHO). Going into the coming year, his seat ought to be getting warm.

They will not hold him responsible for KP, but he certainly has a large hand in it.  Hopefully their advanced metrics team can look at what they paid for him versus what they'll get for him this summer and a lightbulb will go off.

[Scott41theMavs]

When referencing the MBT, I always assume RC is part of it too. They are all tied at the hip...I doubt Donnie and Cuban are doing their own thing and just let RC inherit whatever pieces they give him. I'm sure RC has tons of influence on the players he wants, from free agents to prospects drafted. 

If/when heads start to roll at some point though, he will be the first to go. I believe he has 1-2 more years for them to at least make it out of the 1st round.

If they fail again next year, it depends on the situation. Ex: being a #5-#8 seed and losing to a better team again vs. being a #1-#4 seed and losing to a lesser team. If they lose to a lesser team, I think he's done.

However, in 2023, if they're still getting bounced early then he's done...it doesn't matter the circumstances.

Donnie is safe as long as Luka is a Mav. If the doomsday scenario of Luka leaving finally happens some day, Donnie will be done and Cuban probably sells the team.

If Luka is healthy next year, unless we go into the year with an objectively worse roster (nightmare to end all nightmares), RC should be out if he can't get a fourth-year-Luka-led team to at least the fourth seed - although you likely fire him after the playoffs in that event.

[dirkfansince1998]

There are just a number of posters that I see constantly defending him despite the pretty obvious (to me) flaws and mistakes he has made this year and in the last 10 years. 

I just feel the whole RC subject has become radically polarized and I wish we talk about it as a forum with more nuance.

This is my one hardliner topic. RC is incredible and it would take a lot to convince me of the opposite. When I see posters that blame him for lost series in the late Dirk years I just cannot take them serious. He has some flaws but the good outweights the bad. No coach is perfect.
Doesn´t mean that I am not open for some RC talk but as of now I haven´t seen a good case against him (at least on this board). I was really annoyed with some of the lineup choices in game 6 but I understand that the Mavs lack talent. RC had to try some crazy stuff to make up for it. Some things worked. Others didn´t. Good example. Without the big lineups the Mavs have no chance in games 5&6 but maybe it was the wrong choice in game 7 when the Clippers caught fire from deep.

[Kammrath]

His job should be safe this offseason unless the FO holds him responsible for KP's season (which would be a mistake, IMHO). Going into the coming year, his seat ought to be getting warm.

If I am running the show then....

1) I am trading KP this summer, period end of story, and overturning as much of the roster as I need to upgrade as many starting spots around Luka as possible.

2) I am going into 2022 with a very close eye on the coaching while gauging interest around the league in the DAL head coaching position.

[Scott41theMavs]

The NBA is a game of stars. The coach could not figure out how to integrate Luka and KP. He could not figure out how to run a certain number of plays with KP as the primary option. 

Is that all RC’s fault? Obviously not. KP and to a certain extent Luka also deserves blame along with Donnie.  However the coach absolutely deserves scrutiny on that. KP for all his flaws is still more irreplaceable than the head coach. That is just the reality of the NBA. I would rather see if another coach can try to make this combo work before giving up KP.  If that fails and the loss in trying that out was that we judged RC too harshly, that is fine. As I said, the NBA is a star driven league.  Even Pops needed a Duncan or a Kawhi.

I find the issue of replacing Rick to be waaaaaaay too dicey to look at it that way. KP looks like a steaming heap of crap right now. There is some slight possibility that a full offseason helps him get back to what he way before, but I'm not going to trust the MBT to hire the right guy to replace Rick, and if KP is still $hit on a shingle next year, then you're out your quite-good-if-not-great coach *and* wasted another year of Luka on trying to make KP work.

My sense it that the only coach in the NBA whom I would trust to rehabilitate KP efficaciously back to what he was in the bubble last year is Pop. My gut hunch is that he's going to get the chance to do that, but not as coach of the Dallas Mavericks.

[dirkfansince1998]

Other important part that we tend to forget. What about the assistant coaches. Mavs continue to downgrade the spots next to RC (who obviously is involved in the decisions). RCs coaching tree is reaching Pop level but everytime someone gets a headcoaching opportunity it leaves a hole on the Mavs bench.

[KillerLeft]

The NBA is a game of stars. The coach could not figure out how to integrate Luka and KP.

Yeah, the biggest issue is KP, and that's obvious now. SO, people's current temperatures on Carlisle are probably informed primarily by how they view that failure.

If you look at KP and see a star being wasted, you probably think Carlisle needs to go. 

If you look at KP and see a guy who just flat out didn't or couldn't bring it this year, then you probably feel pretty sympathetic towards Carlisle about the situation he was in this season.

---

If I am running the show then....

1) I am trading KP this summer, period end of story, and overturning as much of the roster as I need to upgrade as many starting spots around Luka as possible.

2) I am going into 2022 with a very close eye on the coaching while gauging interest around the league in the DAL head coaching position.

This is fair. 

Carlisle's number one goal has to be developing a great working relationship with Luka, if he hasn't already. I think one of the things people don't want to believe but that is starting to seem likely to me is that Luka and KP simply don't like each other very much. If true, that might've created a triangle that made it even harder for Carlisle/KP to successfully work together.

[cow]

You know...the FIRST DAMN TIME we lose a playoff series we're favored to win...I'll jump aboard the fire Carlisle train.  Until then, I'll just try to be nice (probably unsuccessfully) to the fire Carlisle people.

We've fallen on our face with two major trades (and some minor ones as well - hello Delon) and I think a lot of has to come down to coaching.  Rondo is forgivable I guess, but that dude's still in the league and was instrumental in getting the Lakers a chip last year.  He wasn't great in this series, but he's in the second round while our guys are on vacation.

We gambled on KP because of his health, not because of his ability, so much so that we gave him a max deal.  KP averaged 10 shot attempts a game in the playoffs.  How come our coach can't get him more involved?  Carlisle is a great coach which makes it all the more confounding.  Maybe he just can't coach basketball genius.  Both Rondo and Luka are always three moves ahead.  Luka's great and all, but the coach needs to mesh superstar personalities and talents even if they don't see eye to eye.  

Speaking of Luka, he confounds me too.  He picks up everyone of his teammates except for KP.  Tim and Dorian make a lot of blunders, but you'll never find a bigger cheerleader for them than Luka.  

I'm not absolving KP either.  Beyond his confidence being shot for obvious reasons, he made a ton of blunders.

The triangle of KP, Luka and Carlisle have failed.

Those trade whiffs have hampered our already anemic front office and have left our cupboards bare.

[Kammrath]

I think one of the things people don't want to believe but that is starting to seem likely to me is that Luka and KP simply don't like each other very much. If true, that might've created a triangle that made it even harder for Carlisle/KP to successfully work together.

Right. I am on record saying KP or RC MUST go. I choose shipping out KP 100 times out of 100 and giving RC one more season to prove himself with Luka.

In my book RC absolutely MUST get Luka past the first round next year, with the lone exception being a Luka injury.

[KillerLeft]

Welp, seems like we've almost talked the entire off-season to death already, and the body of this year's team isn't even cold. What the hell are we going to do all summer and fall????

[cow]

Welp, seems like we've almost talked the entire off-season to death already, and the body of this year's team isn't even cold. What the hell are we going to do all summer and fall????

I suggest prayer.