Rate Donnie Nelson and Mark Cuban's job performance over the last 2 years

[dirkfansince1998]

So in order to evaluate the last 2 years, you need this year?

Deadline is getting moved every single year. 2018 when they missed out it was all about 2019. When they missed out it was all about 2020 and the Giannis pipe dream. When they missed out it moved to 2021.

[ItsGoTime]

Deadline is getting moved every single year. 2018 when they missed out it was all about 2019. When they missed out it was all about 2020 and the Giannis pipe dream. When they missed out it moved to 2021.

Man, I've written about how annoyed I am with this so much I'm glad you said it!

[KillerLeft]

So in order to evaluate the last 2 years, you need this year?

No, the successes and failures of each season can be measured. I just view these transactional, roster issues as part of a bigger picture, and I see these seasons as stepping stones along a path, not as individual opportunities to win a title. In other words, I think I understand what they've been trying to accomplish. 

Maybe I'm wrong, and they're complete idiots - that's possible. But, I see the time period between determining that Luka is a transcendent cornerstone (about half way through his rookie season, by my reckoning) and the time he gets his rookie max extension (that we've all know he would be eligible to receive since roughly that same time) as one chapter of this project. Given that their cap was quite healthy when they landed the dude, I think they saw great opportunity, and I can see why. If they fail to capitalize on that opportunity, I'll be disappointed. I'll say so. But, even though it's hard to imagine things working out at the Giannis level some used to picture, I still want to wait until the end of that chapter to judge it. 

You have often said that "there will be another most important off-season after that...and another." That's true, but to me this off-season is the end of one stage of Luka's career (the stage where he's cheap and huge swings are relatively simple) and the beginning of another chapter. I'll probably judge THOSE future off-seasons much more individually, each on their own merit. But, for these few, I was actually in favor of passing up decent to good options in order to leave room for hypothetical GREAT ones.

---

Deadline is getting moved every single year. 2018 when they missed out it was all about 2019. When they missed out it was all about 2020 and the Giannis pipe dream. When they missed out it moved to 2021.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it has always been this, coming summer. This is when Luka will extend. This is when Giannis and others were potentially to be free agents. Giannis extended last off-season, but nobody ever thought he'd be a free agent in 2020, because he's technically still playing out the last year of his last contract.

[ItsGoTime]

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it has always been this, coming summer. This is when Luka will extend. This is when Giannis and others were potentially to be free agents. Giannis extended last off-season, but nobody ever thought he'd be a free agent in 2020, because he's technically still playing out the last year of his last contract.

To me, that's only relevant if that was the FO's plan too. If it wasn't, then what matters to you, doesn't matter. We have no sure-fire evidence either way, so evaluating each year on it's own merit makes the most sense in this instance. But I get that my logic isn't the same as others, so I'll give you yours!

[KillerLeft]

To me, that's only relevant if that was the FO's plan too. If it wasn't, then what matters to you, doesn't matter. We have no sure-fire evidence either way, so evaluating each year on it's own merit makes the most sense in this instance. But I get that my logic isn't the same as others, so I'll give you yours!

I think it's pretty clear that this (coming) summer's free agent class (that was and has now died) played at least some part in their thinking. How much...you're right, we don't know. 

And, it's certainly not my opinion that having an all-star and possible MVP candidate on a ROOKIE CONTRACT is a rare and precious thing from the angle of team-building economics. That's an opportunity very, very few teams get in the NBA. 

All I'm saying is that I'm looking at that period of time like one entity. I'm ok with skipping some "meh" stuff to ATTEMPT to do something great while that limited window of time lasts. 

But I won't claim it a success if it isn't, when the dust clears. The only way they could possibly extend this kind of thinking is by turning KP into air (total salary dump) this summer, right before Luka starts making big money. But honestly, I don't expect that to happen, and that would require going backwards (letting THJ and Richardson walk for NOTHING, etc) and even if I became convinced it was the right thing to do (I'm not inclined that way at the moment) then I would STILL view these past few seasons as a failure, even as I started a new hope for the next process. 

The only way to claim these past 2 off-seasons weren't awful is if they somehow use the flexibility they've maintained (whether through intent or by accident, as I guess you claim) THIS SUMMER for a talent infusion the likes of which wouldn't be possible with some less than ideal money on their books. 

I'm not revising anything. This is what I've been writing for over a year here, and I have believed it every step of the way. I definitely admit that it's getting harder and harder to envision what big score might be possible.

[ItsGoTime]

I think it's pretty clear that this (coming) summer's free agent class (that was and has now died) played at least some part in their thinking. How much...you're right, we don't know. 

I mean, if it did, and Giannis (or one of the max guys in this class that is already extended) was the plan, their #1 plan for 3 years has already failed.

I'm not revising anything. This is what I've been writing for over a year here, and I have believed it every step of the way. I definitely admit that it's getting harder and harder to envision what big score might be possible.

I will say, yes, I do remember you being one of the ones with this in your thinking for a long time. I hated the Giannis plan so much and now that it is completely failed, I hate it even more.

[KillerLeft]

I hated the Giannis plan so much and now that it is completely failed, I hate it even more.

We're getting close to your opportunity to gloat this way (if that makes you happy), but we're not there yet. One more summer! Then, it's very likely that you won't have to hear the words "cap space" or "flexibility" for quite a few years!

[ItsGoTime]

We're getting close to your opportunity to gloat this way (if that makes you happy), but we're not there yet.

I don't think I gloat, I mostly don't care all that much about being right, truly (sometimes I just like the debate and being contrarian, or as some would say, being a bastard). I just want us to win, and when something doesn't sit right with me, I try to boil it down to the source. That mostly works in RL, when I don't get the benefit of seeing what is going on, it becomes true theory and guesswork.

[KillerLeft]

I don't think I gloat, I mostly don't care all that much about being right, truly (sometimes I just like the debate and being contrarian, or as some would say, being a bastard). I just want us to win, and when something doesn't sit right with me, I try to boil it down to the source. That mostly works in RL, when I don't get the benefit of seeing what is going on, it becomes true theory and guesswork.

Oh, I wasn't intending to accuse you of being mean or anything, if that's how it came across. You SHOULD say you were right, if/when you are. Adds to the fun of this place. 

Hell, when this window ends, I'll say it for you!

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

DFS and THJ hate detected...

they were before the last 2 years though

over the last 2 years...i'm trying to think of anything good

[KillerLeft]

over the last 2 years...i'm trying to think of anything good

Judging them on their own merit, I think you could point to the Curry singing as being highly successful (even though they almost immediately threw it in the trash) and I actually still believe in this past draft quite a bit, personally. 

Not a lot to hang your hat on there, though.

[omahen]

First I find it really strange to pass judgements before season is over. As for individual moves we have been all over that. I said it many times before that imho the summer of 2019 with max cap space was a disaster. That summer was really a blown opportunity. They could either sell cap space for assets or bring real reinforcements but failed completely executing any of those options. I still vividly remember all the fights I had with "no move is better than bad move" guys on this board.

Since then, it is much more difficult to pass a judgement. I think Mavs strategy was to wait for good trade opportunity if it appears. But simple fact is that our treasure chest is mostly empty and for every opportunity there was a couple of teams willing to go all in, outbidding us in the process. Besides, Mavs were not really in a position to spend all remaining assets on someone like RoCo or Gordon. The team is not there yet. Other than that I think the moves they did make after the summer of 2019 were in the right direction. Wright wasn't good on our team and it made no sense to keep him. Naturally it cost a couple of second rounders to get rid of him, no one would trade for him for free or even pay assets unless worse contracts would be going our way. Trying to improve defense by trading for JRich was a correct line of thinking imho. We can't really know how much of an impact this strange season and Covid had on his performance. A move of Johnson and Iwundu for Redick seemed like a desperation move to do something but it is irrelevant, as probably none of those would play since every non shooter is basically out of rotation at this point. It might be better to spend full MLE on a rotation guy instead of Burke/WCS, but we don't know who wanted to come. The only thing I really hold against them is the draft - if you go rookie way they should get more development minutes for them. 

We also have to be realistic about our assets. DFS and Kleber are nice role players, but rebuilding teams have no use for them other than perhaps flipping them forward and no playoff contender will give us a legit starter for them. I guess we could get some draft assets or young players but we are trying to compete. Brunson is again a nice player but still not good enough that anyone would be building their future around him. Value of rest of team (not counting Luka and KP) is low.

So for me is an F for 2019 and B afterwards.

As Killer said, this summer rounds up a period in team building process. Unfortunately it is also the last real chance and everyone around the league knows that, which will likely lead to a lot of blackmailing. Mavs were promising they will be extremely aggresive this summer. Resigning THJ and bringing a MLE level guy is not it. Spending cap space on an elderly stateman like CP3 or Lowry losing THJ in the process is also not it. So I am really looking forward to see what they come up with. I think I was clear enough that a summer of resigning THJ and bringing a MLE level guy is an F in advance from me, unless Mavs make it to the finals this postseason.

[ThisIStheYear]

Only a handful of other teams in history can claim to have rostered “the greatest 22 year old basketball player ever.” Ultimately, the progress of the Mavs will be judged in relation to those teams. Giannis isn’t quit as good as Luka at a similar point in their careers, but he’s the closest reference point in the league as a transcendent young player. I’m a bit envious that even small market, undesirable  Milwaukee has been able to surround Giannis with some near all star quality players and a good supporting cast. Dallas has failed to do that and they’ve even apparently been unable to even make incremental improvement, settling in as a 47 win, one and done type roster. Everything can change with one game though. Win tomorrow, and the Mavs can truly point to some progress. That’s sports. It’s a razor’s edge. But, as of now, the roster churn over the past two years looks like it has led to more value and talent going out than coming in even if Luka’s greatness has glossed over the mistakes.

[KillerLeft]

I’m a bit envious that even small market, undesirable  Milwaukee has been able to surround Giannis with some near all star quality players and a good supporting cast.

I think it's important to understand that Giannis has been around since, what, 2013? That's quite a few more years than the Mavs have been at this w/Luka. Those extra chances matter, and personally, I don't think Milwaukee is on their way to a championship this year (maybe I'm wrong). 

Not trying to let the Mavs off the hook, but I do think we might need to be a little patient.

[F Gump]

It's easy to say the Mavs haven't done anything since the 2018 draft, but here are our respective win totals.

18-19: 33-49 Out of the playoffs. (Traded for WCS, KP, THJ, Lee, and Burke halfway through) 
19-20: 43-32 7th in the West (added Curry, Wright, Boban)
20-21: [48-34 equivalent over an 82-game schedule] 42-30 5th in the West. (Lost Curry, Wright, Jackson Added Jrich)

Good point.

33 wins, lottery
43 wins, 7th seed
48 wins, 5th seed -- and it can be argued this team's record would have been even better, but for the extreme covid hit they took during the early season.

That's an incredibly quick climb up the very steep Western Conf ladder, with significant improvement every year. How many teams take one step forward one year, then one step back the next? Those who claim this team isn't getting any better the last couple of years need to look again.

[Scott41theMavs]

Those who claim Luka isn't getting any better the last couple of years need to look again.

FIFY.

What good personnel move have the Mavs made in the last two years? Since Curry doesn't count since we flushed him down the toilet, our best move was probably WCS. I actually *like* Willie, and that has me throwing up in my mouth a bit. I can imagine what it ought to do for the rest of the board.

You can't point to internal improvement when 1) the team had simply enormous opportunities and 2) blew pretty much every one of them.

[MAVS-SLO]

It's easy to say the Mavs haven't done anything since the 2018 draft, but here are our respective win totals.

18-19: 33-49 Out of the playoffs. (Traded for WCS, KP, THJ, Lee, and Burke halfway through) 
19-20: 43-32 7th in the West (added Curry, Wright, Boban)
20-21: 42-30 5th in the West. (Lost Curry, Wright, Jackson Added Jrich)

So the Mavs in 3 years have improved from no playoffs to a 5th seed in the West. And we all know how turbulent the last 2 seasons have been because of a global pandemic.

Needless to say the Mavs are succeeding. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to point out the flaws in every move saying they could've done more, but on paper the Mavs are making the leap.

Sure KP hasn't worked out perfectly and JRich has fallen into the doghouse like Wright. BUT here we are, taking a very good LAC team to 7 games and have looked competitive with them in 5 out of 6 with them. That's obvious improvement compared to last year. 

I give Donnie a B. The Mavs have improved in the last 3 years. He locked up DFS and Maxi to super value contracts. He traded for KP and Timmy for basically 3 players that didn't matter and 2 FRP picks. A trade at the time that blew all of our minds (still does for me, THJ is a monster!). I loved the Boban signing 2 years 7 mil. I loved the WCS trade for a 50th pick.  

Donnie has also done some not so good moves. The Delon Wright trade with MEM was puzzling. The Delon Wright trade again to get him off the team was even more puzzling given he was traded for value not just 3 months later. Not getting true value for Harry B is another head scratcher. The JRich trade for Curry is one we all want back. And of course 2 summers of mediocre FA signings. 

Some good. Some bad. But the teams improved. So he deserves a B.

There is difference between the Mavs haven't done anything in the last 2 years (looking through results of a team) and the Mavs haven't done anything in the last 2 years looking from what FO was doing in the last 2 years.

Results are improving but the roster or. players who have impact on the court are all the same in the last 2 years. We even lost one of player with impact on the court (Curry) in the last offseason.

So there is question is more responsible for that? FO or. players & coaching staff? 

Yes, FO office brought these players here, but in the last 2 years they stopped doing these. In my opinion FO is happy with results, but for the improvment of results in the last 2 seasons coaching staff and players are deserving most of credit. Individual improvments of players, fit, chemistry... Those are things where more credit goes to the players and coaching staff and not FO..

From comparison, Hawks would never been 5 in the east without their FO work in the last offseasons. And i still think that they're 5 place in east is max. On the other side our team have much higher ceiling, much higher upside but after that we need to see FO at work. We are still spending almost 35 milions of cap space for nothing (Reddick (13), J-Rich (10.8), Melli (4), WCS (4), Burke (3)), we are still spending draft assest's for nothing and from there we need to look at the results of FO in the last 2 years.

[ItsGoTime]

Oh, I wasn't intending to accuse you of being mean or anything, if that's how it came across. You SHOULD say you were right, if/when you are. Adds to the fun of this place. 

Hell, when this window ends, I'll say it for you!

I have to recant a bit to share my true feeling. Completely failed, in the sense that there is only 1 max worthy guy that would make the Giannis plan (of getting a superstar this offseason) a success for that #1 goal. Kawhi Leonard will enter FA. The chances of him coming here are slim to none, however, today’s game win MIGHT make that closer to slim than none!

Not completely failed in that hopefully they can come out with a successful #2 plan that looks good in the end. Most of that will depend on if they trade KP, and what value they extract in return. Once that is determined, THJ’s contract will be the next determining factor. Finally, the rest of the story, will round out the grade, then next season will determine the success.

---

Good point.

33 wins, lottery
43 wins, 7th seed
48 wins, 5th seed -- and it can be argued this team's record would have been even better, but for the extreme covid hit they took during the early season.

That's an incredibly quick climb up the very steep Western Conf ladder, with significant improvement every year. How many teams take one step forward one year, then one step back the next? Those who claim this team isn't getting any better the last couple of years need to look again.

Yes, good point! KP, JRich et al were all complete successes over the long haul and the rise proves it to be true! Your argument has won me over, keep the whole team intact! Resign THJ for $25M per cause what does penny pinching matter?

[Aussiebballer]

My take on Donnie is that he is Cuban’s lap dog and happy to stay that way.

He has had two chances to make a stand against dump crap that Cuban does as an interfering owner and has rolled over and asked for another biscuit twice.
If after 10+ yrs as the GM the owner doesn’t respect your opinion or player evaluation enough to not trade the Giannis pick to save a few $100k in cap space then you leave and go work for an owner that empowers their team management enough to make decisions.

The fact he accepts Cuban’s interference says he doesn’t care enough about being able to make the right calls.
Yes I know Cuban owns the team but Donnie has surely had chances to move on to a different team over the years.
There are numerous GMs with Donnie’s experience that wouldn’t put up with Cuban.
See Houston recently.

[Aussiebballer]

Also Luka is covering up many flaws and mistakes.
If a couple of other teams had smarter GMs this team could be starring DSJ and Bagley.