NEWS: RC out | Kidd hired as head coach & assembling staff

[KillerLeft]

In the highly unlikely probability RC wakes up tomorrow and decides to go to Dirk's house and takes a massive dump on his lawn while his kids are watching whilst wearing a DWade jersey screaming "06 Best Ring" and then goes to a tattoo parlor and get the Mavs logo tatted on his ass,

would that change your opinion on RC? 

lolololololol

Yeah, that would do it.

[mavsluvr]

I was also struck by the bizarre comment that Carlisle offering his opinion on the next Mav coach constituted "tampering" according to NBA rules. That's just factually wrong.

Tampering pertains to something said or done that may be seen as trying to entice a player or coach under contract to work for your team. Did he? No. I'm not not sure Kidd was under contract at that point, but we can be certain RC definitely did not work for the Mavs. So he was free to offer his own educated opinion on the Mavs choices, because he was not speaking for Dallas. If the Mavs didn't like it, tough beans, get over it.

Where do you find that limitation in the rules? 

"Not minding your own business" can be highly annoying to other teams, but it's not necessarily tampering.

Did reporters want to know his thinking about the chaos in Dallas, and did it make a story of interest? Yes. Was it none of his business to give a comment, and should he have just kept his thoughts to himself, like he did so many times with the Mavs? Maybe. Was it a bit of poor form for him to maybe try to sway the decisions of an organization that he had just ditched? Perhaps. But it definitely wasn't tampering.

If you have a citation limiting tampering to remarks about players who might come to your own team, please share it with us.

[KillerLeft]

and gets Champ and Harlabob tatted on his ass giving the middle finger to the entire 2011 team

Even better, hahaha. Great edit.

[F Gump]

If you have a citation limiting tampering to remarks about players who might come to your own team, please share it with us.

Larry Coon is one impeccable source. He words it this way:

"Tampering is when a player or team directly or indirectly entices, induces or persuades anybody (player, general manager, etc.) who is under contract with another team in order to negotiate for their services."

www.cbafaq.com

[dirkfansince1998]

My take is that he was the favorite and "best" part of the Mavs for MANY, MANY fans (many of the best posters on this site included). Many latched on to him as the gold standard of Mavericks basketball. For those who did that this last week has been REALLY, REALLY hard as many illusions and beliefs about RC as a man and coach were shattered.

Many of the issues were already a thing prior to this. We knew about the Luka/RC problems. Did not really change my opinion of him. I appreciate the great basketball mind and just like in Pop´s or Belichick`s case I think that it is more valuable than anything else. I think Cato´s description nailed it. Not a black/white issue. Human exist in different kinds of gray. What works for one person and leads to a great relationship (Dirk, Chandler, Marion, Jefferson, Billups) can rub others the wrong way.


Wouldn´t be suprised if Kidd has similar problems. Stubborn but brilliant. Already lost his job in a power struggle with the Nets (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/earl...for-bucks/). Despite good player relationships around the league he probably had even more problems than RC ever had during his stint with the Bucks. According to the rumors Giannis was the only one that still wanted him. It´s easy to be the good cop (assistant). Not as easy to make the hard decisions that might upset some people.

On a side note: Don´t you think that it is possible to make the same case you just tried to make for every single person that was involved? Cuban, Donnie, Bob, even Luka.
All of them look pretty bad. And again it just comes down to the personal interpretation of the reports. People that had a RC/Donnie focus prior to it found some confirmation. Same case for people that focused on Cuban´s role.  Even the Luka is a difficult character crowd around the league is using this as further prove.



And with this last piece I am joining @"KillerLeft". Hoping for an UN mandate that solves the issues.

[mavsluvr]

Larry Coon is one impeccable source. He words it this way:

"Tampering is when a player or team directly or indirectly entices, induces or persuades anybody (player, general manager, etc.) who is under contract with another team in order to negotiate for their services."

www.cbafaq.com

That's just a brief summary. The tampering rule is very broad and can theoretically extend to almost any comment a coach or front office member makes about someone under contract to another team. That is why team policies are usually to avoid commenting about people on other teams. 

From Larry's summary --

"You may have noticed that when general managers and other team personnel talk to the press, they are careful to avoid talking about specific players who play for other teams. They do this in order to avoid tampering. The only allowed response when talking about players under contract with other teams is to decline comment."

The tampering rule does not just apply to players -- it addresses anyone under contract with another team. 

If Carlisle indeed made the remarks as part of a deal with Cuban to support the hire, that does not absolve him. 

Anyway, the point here is not that the Lakers would be likely to complain -- Carlisle knew they were unlikely to do so. The point is that Rick would have been aware that it was inappropriate for him to encourage a guy on another team to break his contract with that team. So it wasn't like the remark was an innocent slip, probably. 

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

@"Scott41theMavs" PS: my favorite thing about this whole past two weeks was finding out the great Coach Carlisle wasn't going to be working in Milwaukee. That was a depressing possibility I was really, really dreading.

I wanted him to get the job in Mil and win another title.  

(especially considering the Mavs have signaled their short term goal is to win free agency and make Luka happy; winning a title is a goal for a few years later.  I can see us sitting here in 2023 or 2024 thinking ok cool now we have the talent to compete.  Now we just need to find a coach like Carlisle to make a title run.)

[F Gump]

That's just a brief summary. The tampering rule is very broad and can theoretically extend to almost any comment a coach or front office member makes about someone under contract to another team. That is why team policies are usually to avoid commenting about people on other teams. 

What you say is true to an extent, but all the extra you cite ignores the key component of what tampering consists of. It's embodied in Coon's summary statement, where he says "...in order to negotiate for their services."

That's where Carlisle's words clearly fall way outside the boundary - wide as it may be - of what constitutes tampering. There's no way it can be construed that Carlisle was somehow an agent of the Mavs and trying to obtain Kidd's services (for the Mavs!). He couldn't speak for them - in fact, he was giving unsolicited advice TO them.

I agree with you there is a common sense component to the idea that it's best just to never mention anyone from another team. Yet a coach or sometimes execs may praise players or coaches for what they do, and it's not out of bounds. It's part of the landscape. So "Say nothing about anyone, ever" is perhaps a good principle to avoid possible issues, but it is not the rule.

Also, the idea that LA might have had some ability to lodge a tampering complaint over Kidd considering a head coaching job "to break his contract" is far-fetched to the point of absurdity. That's silly. First, the Mavs already would have had permission to talk to him (if it was needed, that is). Or Kidd's contract could have already ended. Plus, while it wouldn't be in the CBA (because it's not a player matter), I suspect that there's an NBA By-Law similar to the NFL's that any assistant coach has blanket permission to be interviewed for a head coaching job elsewhere if the opportunity arises (and permission is only needed for parallel moves). And most importantly, the idea that talking about hiring a guy was tampering, but then actually hiring him a few days later is not, is just irrational and nonsensical. You're letting your agenda get in the way of your thinking.

[ItsGoTime]

I haven haven’t read here for half a day, so forgive me for being so behind…


If it was tampering for RC, it was most definitely tampering for Dame.


KL - much respect for your dissertation into your mind! Thank you! I would think that the ones you are hard on in your teaching and stick it out and thank you in the end are the type of people that mesh very well with your personality (for the most part). Those are people that will follow you no matter what.

The big difference I see between you coaching them and RC’s situation is that your pupils choose you (I assume) and have the ability to sever that tie easily (again assumption). These guys that play fir RC have to either play out their contract and go elsewhere, or ask to get traded, but that doesn’t work for guys that aren’t stars. 

So even if it isn’t apples to apples, to me it’s gala apples to granny smith apples at least (and maybe not even that big a difference between apples…instead of granny smith, maybe it’s closer to red delicious). Anyway, all that to say:

RC being a good coach for an NBA team, is a good amount more than knowing what to teach and how to teach it. Just like for a GM it’s a lot more than just being able to find talent. There is a big time synergistic balance all of the pieces need to make something work perfectly.

Also over time, that synergy can fall out of place/tune for any millions of reasons. I understand you to believe that and sounds like you came to terms in your own way, because you have been saying you have moved on. 

You’re right IMO that it was time for everyone to move on. I also think RC moving on might have been avoided if Donnie or Mark had made the decision to move on from eachother in a more mutual way (I think this should have been done even before the RC hiring but that’s just me), and the new hire required a sign off from RC that the personalities and vision meshed (not necessary if I had my way and Donnie was gone before RC was hired).

Sorry for the rambling, I’ve had a hard time gathering my thoughts to articulate them due to the inordinate amount of traffic we’re getting from all this news.

In short
- I’m glad to know your thoughts on the RC thing. Helps me navigate where you’re coming from. 

- I think there are other acceptable ways of approaching the turmoil revolving around RC.

- I think all thought angles surrounding this one thing out of the whole need to be made aware of the other angles. That is the only way to come to s happy medium.

- I also think it is good to finally be able to talk about some of the specifics of the RC flaws now because before, most if the defense has been some semblance of “RC has forgotten more about basketball than you’ll ever know” (tie into another thread…the SACRED COW!).

[ClutchDirk]

https://twitter.com/theathleticnba/statu...08930?s=21

[khaled1987]

https://twitter.com/theathleticnba/statu...08930?s=21

Tbh, it is for the best.
If someone wanted that job badly,  I doubt Kidd will be interested in having him as lead assistant

[michaeltex]

I wanted him to get the job in Mil and win another title.  

(especially considering the Mavs have signaled their short term goal is to win free agency and make Luka happy; winning a title is a goal for a few years later.  I can see us sitting here in 2023 or 2024 thinking ok cool now we have the talent to compete.  Now we just need to find a coach like Carlisle to make a title run.)

So you're saying Kidd = Avery? Help the team learn how to win better, get tougher mentally, help the young guys grow into NBA players, help your superstar maybe learn a few new skills, etc.?

Then go for a tactician who can make those parts really sing? 

Possibly get an assistant for Kidd to do the tactical work?

[SleepingHero]

Possibly get an assistant for Kidd to do the tactical work?

I want Terry Stotts badly as an assistant. Would be the perfect offensive coordinator.

[michaeltex]

What was Stott's role in 2011, apart from the Asst. HC? For some reason I thought he was the defensive guy, but maybe I'm wrong. I know my wife tells me that enough.

[Time Machine Dirk]

What was Stott's role in 2011, apart from the Asst. HC? For some reason I thought he was the defensive guy, but maybe I'm wrong. I know my wife tells me that enough.

Terry Stotts was the offensive coordinator, Dwane Casey the defensive guy. Didn't you watch some Portland games in the past 7 years? Defense? Pah!

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Brian Dameris and Mark Followell speculated that Mosley might still come back to Dallas, with Cuban giving him a significant pay bump to soothe over any hurt feelings about being passed up.  I dunno, I think that's still unlikely.   That's a lot of ego for Mosley to set aside.  But if he wants a head coach job in the NBA, there's probably worse angles than being the "Luka Whisperer".   This is probably wishful thinking on my part, because the list of former assistants that Kidd has worked with the Bucks and Nets does not excite. 

Greg Foster was with Kidd in MIL and was with the Pacers last year.  I heard they got a new head coach.  Foster working with KP might be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70mNebf5nwc

[DallasBasketball]

Why should an assistant coach automatically be inline for a HC gig? If the players were tuning out Carlisle, isn’t a completely new voice what’s really required? 

I have nothing against Mosley. I hope he gets his chance as a HC.

[sefant]

Can some one fill me on the exact roles last season. I remember a random tweet, thats said it was similar to this:

Guthrie the dude from Utah (offensive) replaced Silas, but wasn't in charge of the offense? Weinar was?


https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/th...hing-staff


offensive - Weinar
defensive - Guthrie
lead assistant - Mosley

Mosley was defensive coach last year, but wasn't this year.

[dirkfansince1998]

Can some one fill me on the exact roles last season. I remember a random tweet, thats said it was similar to this:

Guthrie the dude from Utah (offensive) replaced Silas, but wasn't in charge of the offense? Weinar was?


https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/th...hing-staff


offensive - Weinar
defensive - Guthrie
lead assistant - Mosley

Mosley was defensive coach last year, but wasn't this year.

We never figured it out. The listed roles match the pre season statements but in pre/post game interviews during the season Mosley was mentioned as the "defense coach".

[KillerLeft]

offensive - Weinar
defensive - Guthrie
lead assistant - Mosley

Mosley was defensive coach last year, but wasn't this year.

This was what we were told at the season's beginning, but every time Carlisle spoke to the press he referred to Mosley as "our defensive guy" or "in charge of the defense" or something along those lines. 

I have asked this question six times, at least. It doesn't seem like any of us know whether Guthrie had responsibilities removed during the season, or it was announced incorrectly or what. Super bizarre, imo.

---

I will say that I went down a pretty deep rabbit hole learning about Guthrie when he was hired and I believe that he's a defensive guy, not an "offensive guru."