2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[Scott41theMavs]

Agreed. I'm not sure of the fit with KP tho and frankly I still prefer KP to Turner overall. We definitely need defense more than offense but its a decent step down in offense between the 2 and Turner isn't a good rebounder either. 

"With KP" is a pretty absolute moot issue right now. He's as gone as Rondo after his playoffs here was. I'll take Turner way the hell over KP given the differences in their contracts, expectations, and strengths. Turner is a stretch and D center who can be counted on to do both very consistently, whereas KP might be a unicorn again one day but brings pretty little today. Both have significant injury issues, but it's the difference between a guy you just assume to be out sometimes vs. a guy whose next injury could turn him into John Wall without the comeback.

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I think you could turnover most of this roster. Guys do have value with KP being the biggest trade chip. THJ is a tough call for me. He didn't show up when we really need him to. I worry locking him up with just lock us into mediocrity.

With THJ, it's a matter of signing him to his market value so that you can trade if needed later to improve the team, or making sure you have some sort of bird in the hand before letting him go. Of course, the MBT way is to let him walk and fail to replace him adequately.

[cjeter24]

I'm generally not a fan of the dump KP for a non upgrade... But a trade I think would make a ton of sense is sending KP to New Orleans for a couple of 1sts. And you can get some useful players back that I think they would gladly part with. 

Adams and Bledsoe are both good defenders. Not the best offensive fits but both have their uses there too. 
I think KP and Zion are a really great offensive fit together and would play nicely off each other. 

But New Orleans has all the 1sts and I'm sure they are looking to improve as well. 
Mavs get a 2023 1st included in that deal? That opens up the 2022, 2024, and 2026 draft picks to be traded post draft night. 4 1st round draft picks? That sounds like a start to a great trade package. 

Include Powell in the deal and Bledsoe coming back and you'd save another ~7 mill in cap space next summer Bledsoe has a partially guaranteed deal. You'll clear up a sizable portion of cap space next summer which allows you to make moves this summer and have cap space next summer. 

You'd be a Steven Adams salary dump away from having the ability to only have Luka's new deal + Burke + Bledsoe's ~4 mill guaranteed as the only money on your cap. Pencil in how much $ you want for next summer and spend the rest this summer. With the ability to trade picks again, it wouldn't be hard to trade Adams to someone next summer if needed for someone like Lavine or Beal if that were somehow to come to fruition. 

Fill in the trade concept with any of their young guys instead of 2 1sts or whatever combo to make it work for you. But the basic premise is get 2023 pick, which gives you 2 additional 1sts, plus guys who can contribute now and fill needs for the team to make you better now. 

TLDR: Trade those now usable 1sts for whatever "star" is available, plus sign the best player I can this summer and next summer.

[KillerLeft]

I'm generally not a fan of the dump KP for a non upgrade

I'm not a fan of that either, but at the risk of being hyperbolic, there are very few players in the NBA I wouldn't rather have at this time.

You mentioned that you still like KP more than Turner, for instance. I'd offer up my firstborn child to make that deal work, I think. I know you're a good writer/basketball observer, so I'll chalk it up to wildly different opinions of his play style and effectiveness. I literally think this exact roster, without KP, would be more consistent and less burdened by crap they have to deal with, and therefore better. And I KNOW the cap would less depressing without him.

[cow]

I'm generally not a fan of the dump KP for a non upgrade... But a trade I think would make a ton of sense is sending KP to New Orleans for a couple of 1sts. And you can get some useful players back that I think they would gladly part with. 

Adams and Bledsoe are both good defenders. Not the best offensive fits but both have their uses there too. 
I think KP and Zion are a really great offensive fit together and would play nicely off each other. 

But New Orleans has all the 1sts and I'm sure they are looking to improve as well. 
Mavs get a 2023 1st included in that deal? That opens up the 2022, 2024, and 2026 draft picks to be traded post draft night. 4 1st round draft picks? That sounds like a start to a great trade package. 

Include Powell in the deal and Bledsoe coming back and you'd save another ~7 mill in cap space next summer Bledsoe has a partially guaranteed deal. You'll clear up a sizable portion of cap space next summer which allows you to make moves this summer and have cap space next summer. 

You'd be a Steven Adams salary dump away from having the ability to only have Luka's new deal + Burke + Bledsoe's ~4 mill guaranteed as the only money on your cap. Pencil in how much $ you want for next summer and spend the rest this summer. With the ability to trade picks again, it wouldn't be hard to trade Adams to someone next summer if needed for someone like Lavine or Beal if that were somehow to come to fruition. 

Fill in the trade concept with any of their young guys instead of 2 1sts or whatever combo to make it work for you. But the basic premise is get 2023 pick, which gives you 2 additional 1sts, plus guys who can contribute now and fill needs for the team to make you better now. 

TLDR: Trade those now usable 1sts for whatever "star" is available, plus sign the best player I can this summer and next summer.

Never been a massive fan of Adams or his contract, but after our center play and atrocious rebounding, I don't hate the idea.  I don't think you are getting multiple FRPs for KP though.  Luka, KP, Carlisle and KP's legs have tanked his value.

With THJ, it's a matter of signing him to his market value so that you can trade if needed later to improve the team, or making sure you have some sort of bird in the hand before letting him go. Of course, the MBT way is to let him walk and fail to replace him adequately.

We are totally going to overpay THJ to complete the Rondo/Powell - KP/THJ parallel.

[cjeter24]

"With KP" is a pretty absolute moot issue right now. He's as gone as Rondo after his playoffs here was. I'll take Turner way the hell over KP given the differences in their contracts, expectations, and strengths. Turner is a stretch and D center who can be counted on to do both very consistently, whereas KP might be a unicorn again one day but brings pretty little today. Both have significant injury issues, but it's the difference between a guy you just assume to be out sometimes vs. a guy whose next injury could turn him into John Wall without the comeback.

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With THJ, it's a matter of signing him to his market value so that you can trade if needed later to improve the team, or making sure you have some sort of bird in the hand before letting him go. Of course, the MBT way is to let him walk and fail to replace him adequately.

Turner can shoot 3s but it's such a massive drop off on offense. The offensive difference between the 2 is almost as wide as the defensive difference between the 2. And that's with KP struggling to fit here. If you improve the roster, I think KP does better here. Turner has zero upside offensively. The problem with going after straight defensive guys is that they don't always work the same on each roster. I'd suspect if you don't do more to improve elsewhere defensively, Turner isn't going to be nearly as good here.

[StepBackJay]

If I were running this team, there would be a lot I'd want to do with the roster right now, but adding a potential DPOY at center would be pretty damn high on my list.

What is our confidence level of these guys being playable in the playoffs?

The list I have is Turner, Robinson, Holmes as main targets. I have concerns ab almost any center getting exposed by small ball lineups in the playoffs though.

[KillerLeft]

Turner can shoot 3s but it's such a massive drop off on offense. The offensive difference between the 2 is almost as wide as the defensive difference between the 2. And that's with KP struggling to fit here. If you improve the roster, I think KP does better here. Turner has zero upside offensively. 

See, I'll pushback on the above, since we've learned that KP pouts and doesn't play well when a certain percentage of his scoring comes off-ball. Mix in the fact that his on-ball game this season was TERRIBLE, and I think you have a powder keg of horror. 

By contrast, Turner can set picks, is a roller, has a catch and shoot game AND will be grateful to play off of someone like Luka. 

Now, would you need to replace the IDEA of KP as your second best offensive player on the roster? ABSOLUTELY, but maybe don't do it with a unicorn (which we now know really means he doesn't have a position)? And, for sure maybe don't mess with the center position for that. If I thought KP had any shot of playing the 4 in the modern NBA I might feel differently, but I've bought a house on "KP is 100% center, and 100% bad defensive center" island. He's just not the type of player I think you can win with, especially paying him and treating him like a star.

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The list I have is Turner, Robinson, Holmes as main targets. I have concerns ab almost any center getting exposed by small ball lineups in the playoffs though.

Turner is absolutely playoff ready, and will be for a while, imo. 

If Robinson or Holmes aren't, it's not because they're the old-school, plodding type, it's because they're still too green. I'm ok with that. Build them. 

That's how I see it, anyway.

[StepBackJay]

I am still stuck on this Brunson for Mitchell Robinson idea bc I think its doable. I'd rather go a different direction with our bench to be honest but MR would fix I think the center position.

[cow]

Turner can set picks

Sold.  An area where I do fault KP is his wet paper towel screens.  If he could set a decent pick, he'd be able to use a lot more on a Luka led offense.

[StepBackJay]

Needs for the starting lineup:

- Luka
- 2nd creator, tough defender: Smart is my favorite target right now
- 3D wing (might have to stay DFS if we can't find someone better)
- 3D big wing
- 2-way rim roller, outside shooting would be a bonus

[cjeter24]

I literally think this exact roster, without KP, would be more consistent and less burdened by crap they have to deal with, and therefore better. And I KNOW the cap would less depressing without him.

I actually agree with that first part and I'm way less concerned about the cap. I'm not attached to anyone on the roster except Luka and DFS and haven't been for a long time. That's easily fixable. 

I think with a better roster, KP will be much more effective here. KP had a bad series against LAC for sure. But I couldn't help but notice a few glimpses of how he could excel here at times. When the ball got inside the perimeter from someone other than Luka and KP was on the floor too, he almost always was open somewhere on the perimeter. The issue is that scenario almost never happened this series and guys didn't find him enough when it did. It's much tougher for the defense to deny the kickout to Kp if they have to stop the defensive breakdown, key in on Luka still while he doesn't have the ball. They did some stuff today in the 1st half with some cutting when Boban had the ball in the paint that really looked good. 

I don't think KP will ever live up to his potential because he's not a grinder that will put in the work and do what it takes. But he's got enough skills when aren't able to key on him, he's going to make you pay, unless if you make him beat you in the post. He's awful there. 

All that being said, I'll gladly trade KP. I'll always trade a guy who I don't think has the mental ability or work ethic to reach his potential. It disgusts me but at the same time, I can see what he does do and I got to see how the trade makes the team better. Or in a better spot.

[KillerLeft]

I'm not attached to anyone on the roster except Luka and DFS

You had me right here. I agree with everything you think.

[Kammrath]

Brunson

We learned this series how incredibly expendable JB needs to be moving forward. I love the guy, but he needs to be trade bait if he can help bring back a starter.

[cow]

Don't be married to anyone not named Luka.  I'm one of the biggest Dorian fans but if you can upgrade, upgrade.  Just remember every time DFS drove to pass turnover versus the Clippers.  And he was our second best player.

We learned this series how incredibly expendable JB needs to be moving forward. I love the guy, but he needs to be trade bait if he can help bring back a starter.

I hate it when I'm right.  Size and athleticism matters and he's not gifted enough in either area to offset the other.

[StepBackJay]

We learned this series how incredibly expendable JB needs to be moving forward. I love the guy, but he needs to be trade bait if he can help bring back a starter.

Yes but whom....I just keep going back to the Knicks bc we know they have interest and his contract situation is very close to Mitchel Robinson.

[Scott41theMavs]

We learned this series how incredibly expendable JB needs to be moving forward. I love the guy, but he needs to be trade bait if he can help bring back a starter.

Yes, but it's got to be a real starter. No Delon Richardsons, please.

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Don't be married to anyone not named Luka.  I'm one of the biggest Dorian fans but if you can upgrade, upgrade.  Just remember every time DFS drove to pass turnover versus the Clippers.  And he was our second best player.

I think DFS's defense and team intangibles make it such that he's very hard to upgrade. I've already published my list of guys I would trade him for.

[cjeter24]

Never been a massive fan of Adams or his contract, but after our center play and atrocious rebounding, I don't hate the idea.  I don't think you are getting multiple FRPs for KP though.  Luka, KP, Carlisle and KP's legs have tanked his value.

They are crappy 1sts and they have a ton of them. And they get out from under some bad contracts as well. 
KP is immediately their 3rd best player. If I'm in a spot to trade some likely late firsts when I have a bunch of them for a guy who gives you an efficient 20 ppg as my 3rd best guy? I'm all over that deal. 

Look at it from this angle... How many teams do you think trade any 1st for KP? Any team that has one and can take on his contract with salary matching is my answer. An extra bad 1st is the "clincher". That's exactly how Portland got Covington.

[cjeter24]

Yes, but it's got to be a real starter. No Delon Richardsons, please.

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I think DFS's defense and team intangibles make it such that he's very hard to upgrade. I've already published my list of guys I would trade him for.

He's just a grinder man. He just keeps getting better. Great value deal too. I just don't see you getting proper value for what he brings. But if you do? Sure I'm for it. I'd jump all over the 2 1sts trade package that Portland got for Covington if it includes a 2023 1st. 

He's not the perfect player... But I do know he's going to get better again this summer. I just love those type of guys. We need that mindset. And maybe you can get that to rub off on the next KP type guy who doesn't have that mindset.

[cow]

They are crappy 1sts and they have a ton of them. And they get out from under some bad contracts as well. 
KP is immediately their 3rd best player. If I'm in a spot to trade some likely late firsts when I have a bunch of them for a guy who gives you an efficient 20 ppg as my 3rd best guy? I'm all over that deal. 

Look at it from this angle... How many teams do you think trade any 1st for KP? Any team that has one and can take on his contract with salary matching is my answer. An extra bad 1st is the "clincher". That's exactly how Portland got Covington.

If they retain Lonzo, KP is their 4th best player, that will only play around 65% of their games and is on a max contract.  Was he even our 4th best player in the playoffs?  We've completely submarined his value.  

I'm just preparing myself for Wiggins in a Mavericks jersey.

[cjeter24]

Just curious... Who do you think is a possible upgrade on DFS? If you are talking about including him in a blockbuster deal and he's got to be included, I think we'll all be driving him to the airport lol.