2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

Anyone seen the numbers SG Khyri Thomas put up on the 10 day contract for Houston so far? 

I didn't even know he was still around.  I was PISSED when we passed on him to draft Brunson.  That was a big L for me.  

[StepBackJay]

So if Mavs trade KP but could wind up with Brog, Collins and Turner, I would be all over that. Not sure all the pieces involved outgoing from the Mavs or what would have to happen to satisfy Indy, ATL but I would be all over those 3.

[dynamicalVoid]

Well, when we started discussing Collins a few months back, Powell wasn't even in the rotation. I've been a Powell fan for a while, and I have to admit the thinking above is compelling, if you think the current version of Powell is what you can count on getting as we move forward.

Im no scout...there are guys that get paid good money to do this for a living...

If Collins is a clear upgrade and gettable...I guess you pay the guy and figure other things out later.

Im looking at it from a pocketbook stand point...there are clearly other things involved.

Question...if DP is elite in the PNR, good teammate, high energy, not dumb on the court and only requires 12M...

Does Collins offensive ability(we know dude can shoot 3 and is efficient around the rim) make his large contract worth it to the Mavs?

Do we know if Collins is coasting since he is most likely on his way out?  What was his defense/defensive effort like when he first came into the league?  Maybe that can shed light on how capable he is...if he could possibly be coasting this year.

13M difference is a lot...for possibly marginal talent difference.

[KillerLeft]

Who would Mavs pair with Collins, would it need to be another stretch 5? This part I am fuzzy on. Collins can shoot outside but he also rolls a lot so seems like you would want a Maxi or Thad Young type next to him. There aren't a lot of guys I can picture that are great fits next to Collins. Maybe Myles Turner, that's about it. If I could get Turner + Collins in a multi-team trade I would definitely be interested but that too seems like a longshot.

Yeah, it gets really complicated if you let it. 

The bottom line for me is this: as the team is constructed today, the best option at the 5 is WCS, as he's the one and only defensive difference maker they have the option of playing there. To my thinking, THAT is the spot I would focus on upgrading, and THEN I'd figure out how to make the pieces fit together once I had that guy in place. That's why I'm not as high on Collins as I once was. He's just a better version of what they already have - a combo of some of the better skills offered by Powell and Kleber. That's nice, but doesn't address the REAL problem, imho. 

Without a top 10 defensive 5, you're not going to have a top 10 defense. People say the Mavs need a rim runner. That's fine. If that skill is attached to a defensive 5, then all of a sudden Kleber is juuuuuuuust fine as a starting 4. Maybe even DFS, for that matter. The center is what's missing here.

[mvossman]

Bleh ya I have a hard time with this. KP complains a lot lol. So Mavs tried 5 out for quite a while and it just wasn't working. The offense looks better with a rim roller. KP still gets his points either way so I don't think he should have a lot to complain about. Remember last year for most of the season KP was playing with Powell. I hope KP can just be patient.

To me ideally the way you would "fix" the KP problem is to get another ball mover in the lineup (starting or otherwise) that can get KP the ball. J rich is not that guy.

Is it not working?  Our most used lineup by far is KP/Kleber/Luka/DFS/JRich, our 5 out starting lineup.  That lineup has a offensive rating of 123.7 and a net 12.6.  That is dominate.  I'm not sure why that is not working?  The biggest problem this year is that we have only had 22 games where all of those guys are healthy.  We don't have a big enough sample yet to really know what we have with that group, but the early returns seem pretty good so far.

[SleepingHero]

PLUS: (typing this with a straight face) to me, Hardaway IS a third star level player. It's just that the team has no 2nd best player.

[StepBackJay]

Is it not working?  Our most used lineup by far is KP/Kleber/Luka/DFS/JRich, our 5 out starting lineup.  That lineup has a offensive rating of 123.7 and a net 12.6.  That is dominate.  I'm not sure why that is not working?  The biggest problem this year is that we have only had 22 games where all of those guys are healthy.  We don't have a big enough sample yet to really know what we have with that group, but the early returns seem pretty good so far.

Ya I didn't know they had that good of a rating. I tried to look at the W/L record of Maxi/KP the frontcourt and by my count on the season it is 17-8 which seems pretty good.

I did notice tho they had lost 4 out of 5 games before they moved Powell back into the starting lineup over Maxi (I don't think Maxi was injured at the time?).

From my perspective the starting offense looks better with a rim-roller than an extra spacer. We will see what the Mavs do on Weds when KP is back. I think they will start WCS or Powell next to him and not Maxi.

[dirkfansince1998]

Maybe even DFS, for that matter. The center is what's missing here.

That´s actually something I noticed in the last couple of games. We always complained about DFS playing PF but the numbers suggest that he is a lot better this season.
Especially next to WCS. 

Looking at total +/- over the entire season his top lineup is the starting five (Doncic, Richardson, DFS, Maxi, KP). Followed by four single big lineups.

Brunson/Doncic/THJ/DFS/WCS +54 in 62 minutes
Brunson/JRich/THJ/DFS/KP +44 in 112 minutes
Doncic/JRich/THJ/DFS/WCS +30 in 96 minutes
Burke/Brunson/JRich/DFS/KP +20 in 19 minutes (super small sample size)

In all cases the Mavs have three (somewhat) capable ballhanders on the floor. When DFS plays SF they only have two. Makes a big difference on offense. Just need to find a big that can do it all on defense. Basically an  improved version of WCS.

[StepBackJay]

Also @"mvossman" I saw Brad's tweet from KP talking ab playing with Powell. I didn't hear the full context of what he was being asked but that makes me think they are practicing now with KP and Powell together as the frontcourt.

[StepBackJay]

Yeah, it gets really complicated if you let it. 

The bottom line for me is this: as the team is constructed today, the best option at the 5 is WCS, as he's the one and only defensive difference maker they have the option of playing there. To my thinking, THAT is the spot I would focus on upgrading, and THEN I'd figure out how to make the pieces fit together once I had that guy in place. That's why I'm not as high on Collins as I once was. He's just a better version of what they already have - a combo of some of the better skills offered by Powell and Kleber. That's nice, but doesn't address the REAL problem, imho. 

Without a top 10 defensive 5, you're not going to have a top 10 defense. People say the Mavs need a rim runner. That's fine. If that skill is attached to a defensive 5, then all of a sudden Kleber is juuuuuuuust fine as a starting 4. Maybe even DFS, for that matter. The center is what's missing here.

So I am in agreement with you here. If Mavs move away from KP I'd rather them do a defensive 5 which Collins isn't. Maxi fits just fine as you say alongside many rim-rolling, defensive 5s. I still think Mavs will try to make it work with KP for at least one more year.

[cow]

Tim Sr. must have some good dirt on the "THJ is a 3rd star level player" camp.

[Mavs2021]

Also...I forget that Collins' Max isnt like a veteran Max or Super Max...whats the most Collins can get from Atlanta?  From another team?  I guess I am thinking I would rather have Powell at 12M than Collins at 25M.

No offense to you Collins...I wish you all the best in the World.

I mean please. Let´s not go down the: Why "Dwight Powell is a better basketball player than Julius Randle"-road again.

Dwight Powell´s whole existence is dependent on the attention Luka draws. I expect that we´ll see a lot more of teams playing Luka 1-on-1 in the play-offs, staying home on the 3pt shooters and Powell.

There are 20-30 guys in the league that can do Powell´s job for less money. The fact that he´s such a difference-maker in our current set-up says more about Porzingis than Powell imho.

[dirkfansince1998]

Tim Sr. must have some good dirt on the "THJ is a 3rd star level player" camp.

It really depends on the definition. Who was the 3rd option on last years Lakers team? Kyle Kuzma scoring 12.8ppg /53.1% TS. THJ is cleary better.
In a 1a/b situation with two legit top 10 guys THJ could easily be the 3rd scoring option but that´s not the case in Dallas. Replace KP with Embiid/Davis or Jokic and THJ would be a great 3rd guy.

[dynamicalVoid]

I mean please. Let´s not go down the: Why "Dwight Powell is a better basketball player than Julius Randle"-road again.

Dwight Powell´s whole existence is dependent on the attention Luka draws. I expect that we´ll see a lot more of teams playing Luka 1-on-1 in the play-offs, staying home on the 3pt shooters and Powell.

There are 20-30 guys in the league that can do Powell´s job for less money. The fact that he´s such a difference-maker in our current set-up says more about Porzingis than Powell imho.

Powell isnt great...but he's not 25M.

I get that his contract is a negative value to many people.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

Is it not working?  Our most used lineup by far is KP/Kleber/Luka/DFS/JRich, our 5 out starting lineup.  That lineup has a offensive rating of 123.7 and a net 12.6.  That is dominate.  I'm not sure why that is not working?  The biggest problem this year is that we have only had 22 games where all of those guys are healthy.  We don't have a big enough sample yet to really know what we have with that group, but the early returns seem pretty good so far.

Yeah, and the thing is I think being overly PnR dependent in the regular season works very well when teams aren't really gameplanning on how to defend it or youre facing a lot of bad players on bad teams on 2nd units who are defensively clueless, but it comes back to haunt you in the playoffs. It works because it's simple and easy to execute, particularly since it only really involves two players. Guys like Sweet Lou Williams and Montrezl Harrell have won 6th man of the year awards as efficiency monsters in the PnR in the regular season, but then the playoffs roll around and they're almost unplayable.   So mark me down as a skeptic that just ditching the 5 out and going all in PnR is going to get us where we ultimately want to go.   

Who would Mavs pair with Collins, would it need to be another stretch 5? This part I am fuzzy on. Collins can shoot outside but he also rolls a lot so seems like you would want a Maxi or Thad Young type next to him. There aren't a lot of guys I can picture that are great fits next to Collins. Maybe Myles Turner, that's about it. If I could get Turner + Collins in a multi-team trade I would definitely be interested but that too seems like a longshot.

I think the difficulty in pairing up Collins with a backcourt mate is really no small part of the reason why the Hawks haven't been to eager to lock him up.   He has absolutely no rim protection defense, so that's where I think you have to start (Capella might actually a pretty ideal complement).  Then by the time you run down the list of items you need to find to complement the things Collins doesn't do well, you're asking yourself why you are paying this guy $28 milliion.

[Kammrath]

Maybe even DFS, for that matter. The center is what's missing here.

Yeah, seeing DFS next to a FUNCTIONAL defensive center probably changes everything. I would be willing to run him and Luka as the 3/4 on D IF the Mavs get a competent defensive center in the fold who has switchability and some rim defense.

[KillerLeft]

I would be willing to run him and Luka as the 3/4 on D IF the Mavs get a competent defensive center in the fold who has switchability and some rim defense.

Even if that doesn't end up being the plan for starting, closing, whatever, it sure would be nice to have it in your bag as an option.

[cow]

It really depends on the definition. Who was the 3rd option on last years Lakers team? Kyle Kuzma scoring 12.8ppg /53.1% TS. THJ is cleary better.
In a 1a/b situation with two legit top 10 guys THJ could easily be the 3rd scoring option but that´s not the case in Dallas. Replace KP with Embiid/Davis or Jokic and THJ would be a great 3rd guy.

No idea what my definition is but what it is not is THJ's production in April. It's also why I wouldn't give him a contract nearing what he's making today.

[Mavs03]

THT with a nice game yesterday hitting some big shots in OT for the Lakers including two massive 3 pointers.  He's averaging 9 points, 3 rebounds 3 assists, 1 steal in 20 minutes per game for the season.  He's shooting 46% from the field and 79% from the FT line for the year.  He's only shooting  27% from 3, although that percentage has actually improved. Over the past month, he's shot 31% from 3.  His stroke is good.  I believe that percentage could get into the mid 30s with more playing time.

I would present an offer sheet that would make it uncomfortable for the Lakers.  They already have $120 million committed in team salary for next year and that's not even including Dennis Schroeder who is an unrestricted free agent.  If we get THT, he would replace J-Rich in the starting lineup.

[ItsGoTime]

THT with a nice game yesterday hitting some big shots in OT for the Lakers including two massive 3 pointers.  He's averaging 9 points, 3 rebounds 3 assists, 1 steal in 20 minutes per game for the season.  He's shooting 46% from the field and 79% from the FT line for the year.  He's only shooting  27% from 3, although that percentage has actually improved. Over the past month, he's shot 31% from 3.  His stroke is good.  I believe that percentage could get into the mid 30s with more playing time.

I would present an offer sheet that would make it uncomfortable for the Lakers.  They already have $120 million committed in team salary for next year and that's not even including Dennis Schroeder who is an unrestricted free agent.  If we get THT, he would replace J-Rich in the starting lineup.

He becomes Julius Randle or yet another Wright/JRich. If we get him, hopefully he becomes the former. SnT JRich for him?