2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[StepBackJay]

Lots of Spurs FA's I like for the right price:

• DeRozan obv really good but you don't want to commit to him more than 1-2 years. I think you can love Brunson as I do and still want another big scorer/playmaker on the roster just because we need more than just Luka and Brunson. J Rich was supposed to be that kinda but isn't at all.
  
• Rudy Gay would be nice to add scoring from the forward spot
  
• Patty Mills still a very productive player. He is one o my favorite under the radar kind of targets. I have thought for a while he is underrated. If you can get him on a good deal he would be a great add.
  
• Gorgui Deng is a cheap rotational big you could take a look at.
  

I could see Spurs going into complete youth movement so it wouldn't surprise me if all of these guys are available.

[KillerLeft]

HNL's tragic and absolutely insane anti-Luka bias in '17-'18.

???

HNL from the old board? I haven't seen him here. He was against the Luka pick?

[Scott41theMavs]

???

HNL from the old board? I haven't seen him here. He was against the Luka pick?

He kept siding ludicrously with Wes, VAJ, and Barnes over Luka before those Three Stooges were traded.

[omahen]

How about Brunson takes the role Brunson has and it gets bigger?

Anyone who has "concerns" about Brunson given what his play has built up into as seen in recent games is either certifiable, or the concerns are about him walking in '22. 

Damn, this is the worst thing since HNL's tragic and absolutely insane anti-Luka bias in '17-'18.

I think SleepingHero and myself have made valid arguments why we have some concerns about Brunson. If you feel obliged to reply I would appreciate if you would actually reply to those arguments instead of calling names...

[cow]

I think SleepingHero and myself have made valid arguments why we have some concerns about Brunson. If you feel obliged to reply I would appreciate if you would actually reply to those arguments instead of calling names...

I guess I'm certifiable then.  As good as he's been (biggest leap this year from any Mav and arguably our second best player), I still think his measurables will limit his potential as an every game starter in the NBA.  Not that it matters much from a GM perspective, but national media are starting to catch on to how good he's been this season.  At this rate, he'll be a sneak popular free agent once he hits the market and if he isn't given the option to start here, he may just look to play elsewhere given that opportunity.   I'm just going to throw a popular name out there as a random example, but if JB's the price you need to trade to help you land a player like Collins and as much as it would suck to lose him, that wouldn't be a deal breaker.

On another note, I've really started talking myself into DeRozan.  I think he'd add the perfect veteran leadership and I'd prefer what he gives you game in and game out to THJ's inconsistencies.  I'd also hope that you cuold convert him into a super six man a few season down the line towards the backside of his prime.

[mvossman]

How about Brunson takes the role Brunson has and it gets bigger?

Anyone who has "concerns" about Brunson given what his play has built up into as seen in recent games is either certifiable, or the concerns are about him walking in '22. 

Damn, this is the worst thing since HNL's tragic and absolutely insane anti-Luka bias in '17-'18.

Brunson has been great offensively this year, but its a reasonable concern (one that I share) that he fits in the starting lineup with his defensive limitations, especially against certain matchups.  There is a reason he is not starting now.

[ItsGoTime]

The above is absolutely correct, and I don't mean this next comment as a slight on his general ball-handling abilities, as he'd be the first or second best handler on the team immediately, but:

He is NOT a pick and roll guy. That's why I didn't think he's a fit with Zion, who imo should be used (at least early on) like prime Amare Stoudemire, and that's why I think he'd be mostly an off-ball player here in Dallas. He's just not a great fit for this system as a ball-handler, imo, but might be an upgrade over Richardson in a similar role.

But none of that even compares to the simple and obvious truth that involving his father with the franchise, even in a minor, peripheral way, is one of the dumbest things this team could possibly do next. I get that this doesn't bother others (don't get why) but I will never be able to get there.

I don’t want to discount this point, cause I’m mostly right there with you. However, I haven’t heard anything from his father since being in NO. He came in with a huge bang, and seems everyone (including Lonzo) is tired of it.

[KillerLeft]

However, I haven’t heard anything from his father since being in NO. He came in with a huge bang, and seems everyone (including Lonzo) is tired of it.

I agree that LaVar's time in the spotlight has been lessened, but it's not gone. This is from less than a month ago:

https://itsgame7.com/lavar-ball-reveals-...-pelicans/

I'm sorry, but I just can't get there. I feel like there's a 0% chance this time bomb of a circus wouldn't hold the team back, at least a little. I don't expect to convince anyone to think like I do, but this is one issue on which my mind is simply not open to a change of opinion. I suuuuuuuure hope the Mavs aren't considering making a run at one of those kids. I wouldn't even risk it for LaMello, who I feel might be on his way to becoming a transcendent player.

[omahen]

At this rate, he'll be a sneak popular free agent once he hits the market and if he isn't given the option to start here, he may just look to play elsewhere given that opportunity. 

I am not sure it would be necessary for him to start to feel valuable with Mavs. He is basically playing starter minutes as it is. I think the question for Mavs is, if he can replace JRich or THJ roles. I think Mavs need both a plus defender in JRich spot (who can also shoot as good as possible and create as much as possible - as Dan wrote, not many options available that fit the bill) and an excellent shooter in THJ spot. I am affraid Brunson is neither. As good as he is playing in his position it doesn't erase the need we have for JRich and THJ positions. Unfortunately, I think replacing Brunson role would be the easiest of all three. This means, Brunson is a luxury we can afford to lose if he can bring us an upgrade on other positions. Basically what you said with the Collins example.

[cow]

I am not sure it would be necessary for him to start to feel valuable with Mavs. He is basically playing starter minutes as it is. I think the question for Mavs is, if he can replace JRich or THJ roles. I think Mavs need both a plus defender in JRich spot (who can also shoot as good as possible and create as much as possible - as Dan wrote, not many options available that fit the bill) and an excellent shooter in THJ spot. I am affraid Brunson is neither. As good as he is playing in his position it doesn't erase the need we have for JRich and THJ positions. Unfortunately, I think replacing Brunson role would be the easiest of all three. This means, Brunson is a luxury we can afford to lose if he can bring us an upgrade on other positions. Basically what you said with the Collins example.

I just see it as a path to generational wealth.  Being a starter means bigger contracts down the line.

[Mavs2021]

Markkanen playing 23 minutes off the bench tonight. Doesn´t look like he´s a high priority for them. Starting to think something like 88/4 might already be enough to engage in a little friendly S&T conversation around Powell + Terry.

[Mavs2021]

Brunson has been great offensively this year, but its a reasonable concern (one that I share) that he fits in the starting lineup with his defensive limitations, especially against certain matchups.  There is a reason he is not starting now.

Why are we even having this discussion? Brunson is perfect for the 6th man Terry role. Just have an honest discussion about numbers and role with him, so you can make an educated decision whether to trade him or not. If something like 64/4 with 28 MPG as the #1 bench option is not enough,then use his value in a trade.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Markkanen playing 23 minutes off the bench tonight. Doesn´t look like he´s a high priority for them. Starting to think something like 88/4 might already be enough to engage in a little friendly S&T conversation around Powell + Terry.

In both halves they played Vuc, Theis and Markkanen at the same time (so Markkanen is the SF?).

Is the Market for Markkanen really $22 million?  Between Christian Wood, Gallinari, Bertans and Grant, who is the best comp?  Is he a starter?  It would take a pretty specific group around him.  Or, is he more of a third big who can score off the bench?

If he wasn’t a lottery pick and we just looked at his data, I wonder if we’d see more Kelly Olynyk than $22mm guy.

BTW, depending on whether they are trying to operate under the cap to renegotiate LaVine, I think a S&T is possible here.  I just think it more likely for Hardaway than Powell.  Can you replace what Hardaway does with the MLE (McDermott?) and get two guys to help make the bench thrive?

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

I can't imagine he's in their long term plans (rumors were they wanted him gone in a Lonzo package) or that it would take anything close to $88 million dollars to sign him.

[DanSchwartzgan]

So, we all agree that they need more playmaking on the floor, 

But, in my opinion, Brunson is making it difficult to envision a no-brainer path to an upgrade there, especially at the guard position. He's so good that any (realistically acquired) playmaking guards we mention make me immediately think "wouldn't I just rather see Brunson get that role?".

There is some truth to that last part.  The point I was making today is the Mav’s seem to prioritize a certain kind of defender above all else as the starter next to Luka in the back court.  More playmaking would be nice, but there is only one Jrue Holiday (who is probably the ideal).  With everyone else you are probably giving up something.

We are a little new at this Brunson-as-4th-quarter-closer thing.  At some point teams will counter our counter.  I tried to go back and look at the games since March 1st to see if I could discern a pattern in terms of who is losing 4th quarter minutes to Brunson.  But, there are only a very few games that weren’t either blow-outs or had a jacked up lineup because of load management.  The point is we don’t know if this will last.  If it does, then 2021 probably has the right answer...this decades version of Jet Terry.

I’m with you for the most part on the “everyone agrees we need more playmaking...especially in the playoffs” thing.  But, the playoffs also require shot creators (especially late in games).  Right now Brunson and Luka are it (which is why Carlisle is trying this).  Ball and Conley come as close as anyone outside of Holiday to checking the defender, playmaker and 3 point shooter boxes.  Its kind of the same thing with Richardson as it is with Maxi.  He’s good enough at his role that it will take someone very special (and expensive) to replace him.

[StepBackJay]

In both halves they played Vuc, Theis and Markkanen at the same time (so Markkanen is the SF?).

Is the Market for Markkanen really $22 million?  Between Christian Wood, Gallinari, Bertans and Grant, who is the best comp?  Is he a starter?  It would take a pretty specific group around him.  Or, is he more of a third big who can score off the bench?

If he wasn’t a lottery pick and we just looked at his data, I wonder if we’d see more Kelly Olynyk than $22mm guy.

BTW, depending on whether they are trying to operate under the cap to renegotiate LaVine, I think a S&T is possible here.  I just think it more likely for Hardaway than Powell.  Can you replace what Hardaway does with the MLE (McDermott?) and get two guys to help make the bench thrive?

I think there are enough FA options that Mavs don't have to feel like they need to hurry to get a deal done with THJ and/or J Rich. Like maybe they come to a deal maybe they don't. Mavs will chase Collins which might happen pre-FA anyway (negotiating with ATL) but if those guys get signed elsewhere while Mavs chase their plan A, I think we can live with that. I like our 5 pack of Luka, Brunson, DFS, Maxi, KP all who are under contract so that plus a lot of cap space lets me believe we will be just fine filling out a bench. No reason to overpay THJ or anybody for that matter.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think SleepingHero and myself have made valid arguments why we have some concerns about Brunson. If you feel obliged to reply I would appreciate if you would actually reply to those arguments instead of calling names...

I regard it as a philosophical issue rather than an x's and o's issue. You have drafted and developed a player with that skill in scoring, that efficiency, that leadership, and that clutch ability, to the extent that even one among the naysayers (hint: making him trade bait is objective naysaying, unless you're trading him for a literally Giannis-level player) is willing to anoint him the second-best player on the team over a guy who averages 20 points, 9 rebounds, and a block and half a game. I find it analogous, as I said, to siding with the Three Stooges over Luka, which constituted a view of things not consequent with reality, behavior as a sports fan clearly in need of some sort of therapy to be unable to appreciate that your team had successfully drafted a generational talent. Perhaps it's not quite on that level, but it's the same sort of behavior. Brunson certainly isn't a generational talent, but he's a guy who's definitely as huge of a win for a second-round pick as Golden State fans, for example, should have viewed Draymond after season three of his career or so. He has far more trade value, if the Mavs chose to trade him, than KP (although I think KP is still the better player at this juncture, although I like Brunson quite a bit better) due to KP's intangibles, contract, and health history. But he's not a guy you trade if your goal is long-term success in building around a generational talent. I know there's the argument that we can't keep him unless we start him and pay him when the time comes, but 1) he *is* functionally a starter right now, in that he finishes all the games unless it's garbage time, and 2) of course you pay him when the time comes. 

I believe that 1) Brunson has already crept into the top 50 of NBA players, 2) he is far from a finished product and will grow even further, and 3) in spite of the "measurables" argument, his defense is already improving. He is statistically better than Luka on that end. His learning to get shots for others is not something I would bet against. I'm of the opinion that we already have our second playmaking option next to Luka. Why is the team so successful so far in spite of starting non-creators in DFS and Maxi and the rather shaky JRich? Because we're a team that has three stars, whether acknowledged by the media or not. Writing Brunson off with the reservations you, cow, and SH have against him brings to mind the saying, "People like you are the reason why we can't have nice things."

[ItsGoTime]

 Between Christian Wood, Gallinari, Bertans and Grant, who is the best comp?

I see him closer to Gallo. But he is young, so can still develop.

[StepBackJay]

I don't understand why Brunson couldn't start. Damien and McCollum have started for the Blazers for many years and they have been to the playoffs I think like 7 years in a row. Their supporting cast has also not always been very good. I would take a Luka, Brunson, KP core team over Dame/CJ/Nurkic honestly (Nurkic himself seems to be injured a lot). For sure Mavs will need to decide whether or not Brunson is best suited off the bench in starting but I am bullish on his future here.

[F Gump]

How about Brunson takes the role Brunson has and it gets bigger?

Anyone who has "concerns" about Brunson given what his play has built up into as seen in recent games is either certifiable, or the concerns are about him walking in '22. 

Damn, this is the worst thing since HNL's tragic and absolutely insane anti-Luka bias in '17-'18.

"How about Brunson takes the role Brunson has and it gets bigger?"

I like this take a lot, and its refusal to waste words on irrational skeptics who want to assume the worst ahead and plan accordingly. Thank you.