2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[ItsGoTime]

Ya, defensive coaching is necessary when your team goes in a defensive way. Too bad our staff hasn’t been up to the task.

[SleepingHero]

what's the last successful trade he really pulled off

It's hard to evaluate the JRich+Bey for Curry trade just yet, so I'm going to hold off on that. 

The last Mavs trades previously were: 

Johnson for Wright+Justin Jackson+ A 2023 2nd round pick swap (more favorable) and a 2026 2nd rounder. 

Bleh. Not good. But certainly not terrible. Johnson DOES fill a role here. We saw the team look totally different last night against PHI when he started the 3rd. The dude doesn't have much left, but he's a tough guy that can still defend, and that's what we were looking for weren't we? If he could just hit a damn 3 he'd be our PJ Tucker and we'd be singing praises. The 2 picks are what really tank this trade. The fact we gave up 2 picks for Wright in the first place is what kills it. 

Next trade: WCS for UTA's 2020 2nd round pick. 

I'd rank this one as a slight positive. We got WCS for essentially the 60th pick in the draft which is great great value. If WCS could actually make a dunk this would've been a homerun, but alas. In any case, WCS for the 60th pick is good. Good trade by Donnie.

Delon Wright for Satnam Singh+2021 POR 2nd round pick, and a 2023 2nd round pick swap (least favorable)

Meh again. Basically Wright for 2 2nd rounders. It was a gamble. If Wright had worked he'd have been the secondary playmaker, defender, and lead guard we'd have been clamoring for that summer. Remember that Pat Bev hype? Wright would've been the younger version. Nice try. Not good though. Also because Satnam was traded this was the worst trade in franchise history. 

Then we get to the Luka trade and Kristaps trade. Both of which were fantastic franchise altering ones.

So Donnie is on a cold streak compared to those trades sure. But compared to the rest of the league? He's been average-ish.

[SleepingHero]

Speaking of underrated points.  It's probably why Wiggins has shown improvement on the defensive end too.

Draymond on the defensive end is like Curry on the offensive end. Dude is a defensive savant.


Makes me go back and cringe how I missed that when the Warriors were contemplating getting rid of him and how I was vocally against the Mavs putting their hat in the ring.

---

I have no idea what Wiseman's ceiling is, but I know he'll have a good career. He'll be much more useful than Marvin Bagley, for example. Probably better than KP, too, imo.

Based on what I've seen I can't say I share the same confidence as you. 

I think Wiseman can be a multi-time all-star, but I also think it's just as likely as he'd be a Jonas Valanciunas. Not franchise changing, but super solid.

In any case I'd love to have him on the Mavs. Just not at the expense of KP.

[vfromlmf]

I've been super impressed with Wiseman. Maybe not the rebounder Ayton is but more aware defensively. Super strong, deceptively so. Will be a better scorer than Ayton with faster feet, better in transition. Great lower body. I think he's going to develop into an absolute beast and his efficiency will improve as he matures. A true modern center who will score at three levels, with verticality, switchability, rim protection.

[Fuerza1]

You cannot hold off on the Richardson trade then say the KP trade was fantastic. KP is trending downwards, and we don't know what the Knicks will do with those 1st round picks.

Thus far, the Knicks were able to use cap space to easily replace KP with a non-injury prone all-star player in Julius Randle at a much cheaper price, and sign Marcus Morris, which eventually turned into a very promising rookie in Quickley. 

As it stands, the Mavs have a similar record to the Knicks. The Knicks. I repeat, the Knicks. 

If competing for the 7th-8th seed annually w/ KP is the norm, then the trade was a waste. We were doing that with a past his prime Dirk. The Mavs should be contending.

[ItsGoTime]

So far he's been good, not great. You can see the talent, but he's extremely raw. I think without Draymond coaching him he'd be lost and probably get barely 10mpg.

This is kinda the story for me. He won’t get that kind of teaching here so that is why I want to use his value for another team to take on, if we were to do a trade with GSW.

[Fuerza1]

Also, the WCS acquisition did take more than a second rounder, it forced the Mavs to open up a roster space. Isaiah Roby was the casualty, because you know he was young. 

I really liked Roby's physical tools last year and thought he had something to offer. He never got the opportunity. Now he is playing regular minutes for the Thunder. Yeah, they are not a good team (neither are the Mavs) but he has a PER of 16, and looks like a solid rotation piece for years to come.

[Omega_Supreme]

It's hard to evaluate the JRich+Bey for Curry trade just yet, so I'm going to hold off on that. 

The last Mavs trades previously were: 

Johnson for Wright+Justin Jackson+ A 2023 2nd round pick swap (more favorable) and a 2026 2nd rounder. 

Bleh. Not good. But certainly not terrible. Johnson DOES fill a role here. We saw the team look totally different last night against PHI when he started the 3rd. The dude doesn't have much left, but he's a tough guy that can still defend, and that's what we were looking for weren't we? If he could just hit a damn 3 he'd be our PJ Tucker and we'd be singing praises. The 2 picks are what really tank this trade. The fact we gave up 2 picks for Wright in the first place is what kills it. 

Next trade: WCS for UTA's 2020 2nd round pick. 

I'd rank this one as a slight positive. We got WCS for essentially the 60th pick in the draft which is great great value. If WCS could actually make a dunk this would've been a homerun, but alas. In any case, WCS for the 60th pick is good. Good trade by Donnie.

Delon Wright for Satnam Singh+2021 POR 2nd round pick, and a 2023 2nd round pick swap (least favorable)

Meh again. Basically Wright for 2 2nd rounders. It was a gamble. If Wright had worked he'd have been the secondary playmaker, defender, and lead guard we'd have been clamoring for that summer. Remember that Pat Bev hype? Wright would've been the younger version. Nice try. Not good though. Also because Satnam was traded this was the worst trade in franchise history. 

Then we get to the Luka trade and Kristaps trade. Both of which were fantastic franchise altering ones.

So Donnie is on a cold streak compared to those trades sure. But compared to the rest of the league? He's been average-ish.

I hate the Curry trade because the Mavs never replaced what they lost. You do that trade when you have a guy on your roster that can shoot it close to the same clip Curry did. The Mavs simply traded top 5 three point shooting for an average to above average defender. 

We never replaced what we lost in Curry's 3 point shooting. If that was expected to be offered with Terry in the draft then that was wishful thinking. 

The Mavs philosophy has always been that way. 

Donnie offseason should put him on the hotseat

Don't get me started on Christian Wood

[StepBackJay]

That just shows how far off we are when it comes to KPs value. Most Warriors fans don´t want to trade Wiggins straight up for KP. Wiggins is on a horrible contract as well but he improved as a defender and rarely misses games. Wiggins missed one game in his first four seasons. 19 over his entire career. Oubres contract is a lot better but he probably is the worst player among the three mentioned guys.
Healthy KP is obviously a way better player and we can hope that GMs have a higher opinion than the fans but I do think that the 2nd pick in the draft has more value than KP right now. Even more important. The Warriors play a switch heavy defense. Not sure how that is going to work with KP.
Personally I would do it without thinking twice but I am probably higher on Wiseman than most guys. People tend to forget that he is among the youngest players in the draft class and never played any college games. No suprise that he isn´t having a positive net impact in his first season. But he has nearly unlimited potential. Make no mistake. He would have been the undisputed first pick without the ban.

Warriors fans are idiots and like Lakers fans they believe other teams should just give them their good players for trash. Wiggins for KP would not happen in a million years. I absolutely believe Warriors would be interested in a KP for Wiseman centered deal. Interested in like "definitely" would pull the trigger? Not sure bc Warriors have other trades they could make using Wiseman and/or the Minney pick they have. I just think that Warriors need a win-now player more than they need a rookie center.

[StepBackJay]

I've been super impressed with Wiseman. Maybe not the rebounder Ayton is but more aware defensively. Super strong, deceptively so. Will be a better scorer than Ayton with faster feet, better in transition. Great lower body. I think he's going to develop into an absolute beast and his efficiency will improve as he matures. A true modern center who will score at three levels, with verticality, switchability, rim protection.

Glad people are getting on board with this idea. Again not sure the Warriors would go for it but if I am the Mavs I am all over this type of deal. Again not only do you get your big man likely for the next 7 years, you also open up cap space to spend on other positions.

[StepBackJay]

I hate the Curry trade because the Mavs never replaced what they lost. You do that trade when you have a guy on your roster that can shoot it close to the same clip Curry did. The Mavs simply traded top 5 three point shooting for an average to above average defender. 

We never replaced what we lost in Curry's 3 point shooting. If that was expected to be offered with Terry in the draft then that was wishful thinking. 

The Mavs philosophy has always been that way. 

Donnie offseason should put him on the hotseat

Don't get me started on Christian Wood

Ya it hurts to lose Curry's shooting. I do think Terry could be that eventually but it's not a sure thing at all and Curry was a sure thing.

[SleepingHero]

You cannot hold off on the Richardson trade then say the KP trade was fantastic.

I easily can. We're barely 2 1/2 months in with that major replacement with us missing half our roster. Meaning there is a lot of noise. Obviously JRich isn't the shooter we wanted. His defense is a marked improvement though. In any case I don't want to judge JRich yet until our roster isn't broken for at least 10 games. 

The KP trade on the other hand is 2 years, 26 days old to this day. I don't see how you can say KP has been trending downwards when he's quite literally improved in almost all per game averages since he started playing here. His issues are availability. And thats a fair criticism. But when he does play he's a 20/10 guy. I'm not going to let a 15 game sample size of him rushing back from surgery after no training camp cloud my outlook on KP (During which he's improved on his efficiency and scoring, with a notable decline in defense that I believe quite confidently is due to lack of conditioning)

Further, the Mavs got THJ, who by all accounts (and much to my chagrin at times) is one of the highest quality starters in the league. 2 seasons now of 40% 3pt shooting on high volume, and a commensurate professional.

The Knicks aimed to signed superstars with their cap. They failed spectacularly. Last season they were the laughing stock of the league with the same free agents you're now heralding as better than what the Mavs got in the trade. 

Finally, I agree we don't know what the Knicks will do with the Mavs picks. They could draft a generational player at 16-25. They could also whiff completely. Given the fact the last rookie that the Knicks signed past their rookie contract was Charlie Ward in 1998, I feel pretty confidently in the latter.

---

I hate the Curry trade because the Mavs never replaced what they lost. You do that trade when you have a guy on your roster that can shoot it close to the same clip Curry did. The Mavs simply traded top 5 three point shooting for an average to above average defender. 

We never replaced what we lost in Curry's 3 point shooting. If that was expected to be offered with Terry in the draft then that was wishful thinking. 

I totally agree, and why I was so adamant about going after Buddy Hield for that exact reason. I still feel that way.

[cow]

It's hard to evaluate the JRich+Bey for Curry trade just yet, so I'm going to hold off on that. 

Then we get to the Luka trade and Kristaps trade. Both of which were fantastic franchise altering ones.

So Donnie is on a cold streak compared to those trades sure. But compared to the rest of the league? He's been average-ish.

Curry was loss and it's compounded by drafting.  Would you rather have Bey-Bey-Curry or JRich, Green, TT, Bey?  I hope Green proves me wrong but Bey is having an immediate impact.  And I'm not second guessing the Curry trade, I hated it when it happened.  

I don't view the KP trade as fantastic and it has little to do with his recent struggles.  We paid a steep price for the chance at having two young other worldly talents so I'm not going to be negative here either.  The problem is that because both he and Luka (no brainer win on that trade) were so expensive that we had little ammunition to add to an otherwise thin talent pool.  The smarter play would have been to hold off KP, see what you had in Luka and go through the "process" to add another talent via the draft and then use accumulated assets to add a third piece with the added benefit of better understanding fit.  

Everything else was spinning our tires (wasting time) and had very little upside.  We are so thin on talent and assets that we don't have a lot of options to make these team better in the short term.  Clock is ticking but we need to put a stake in the ground and start making smart trades, acquisitions and draft choices.  I'd say we probably have ~4 years.

[KillerLeft]

I think Wiseman can be a multi-time all-star, but I also think it's just as likely as he'd be a Jonas Valanciunas. Not franchise changing, but super solid.

Well, that's basically what I'm saying. Not overly familiar with Valanciunas, so maybe not specifically that part, but overall, yeah - the above is my point.

[cow]

Draymond on the defensive end is like Curry on the offensive end. Dude is a defensive savant.


Makes me go back and cringe how I missed that when the Warriors were contemplating getting rid of him and how I was vocally against the Mavs putting their hat in the ring.

He's also a vocal quarterback.  Maxi tries but it's not the same.

[ItsGoTime]

I hate the Curry trade because the Mavs never replaced what they lost. You do that trade when you have a guy on your roster that can shoot it close to the same clip Curry did. The Mavs simply traded top 5 three point shooting for an average to above average defender. 

We never replaced what we lost in Curry's 3 point shooting. If that was expected to be offered with Terry in the draft then that was wishful thinking. 

The Mavs philosophy has always been that way. 

Donnie offseason should put him on the hotseat

Don't get me started on Christian Wood

Curry’s great 3 shooting is very overrated. He was not a clutch 3 shooter nor was he one to shoot 3’s unconsciously game after game. He regularly passed up on the shot if he wasn’t extremely wide open. Maybe that was a role he wasn’t being coached to do (RC?) but it was for sure the role he settled into.

[SleepingHero]

Curry was loss and it's compounded by drafting.  Would you rather have Bey-Bey-Curry or JRich, Green, TT, Bey?  I hope Green proves me wrong but Bey is having an immediate impact.  And I'm not second guessing the Curry trade, I hated it when it happened.  

I was in the exact same boat as you with the Curry trade when it happened. I wasn't sold instantly on JRich. Obviously he hasn't been the clear cut better player at all. In fact a slight downgrade. But I'm also trying to be fair and recognize that the team looks broken in a bunch of places now that could be causing JRich to look quite worse.

With that said, I'm fully prepared to admit that trade was a failure when the time comes because how does one just give away Curry like that.

And the fact we passed up S.Bey.....ugh. Still hurts. Need bourbon.

---

Well, that's basically what I'm saying. Not overly familiar with Valanciunas, so maybe not specifically that part, but overall, yeah - the above is my point.

Ah I see. So I feel we're in the same boat here. I guess my confidence comment mainly referred to Wiseman potentially being better than KP in the longrun. I haven't seen that level outta him yet. 

Not to say he can't reach there, because its possible he can like we both said.

[ClutchDirk]

Curry’s great 3 shooting is very overrated. He was not a clutch 3 shooter nor was he one to shoot 3’s unconsciously game after game. He regularly passed up on the shot if he wasn’t extremely wide open. Maybe that was a role he wasn’t being coached to do (RC?) but it was for sure the role he settled into.

This...

[cow]

I was in the exact same boat as you with the Curry trade when it happened. I wasn't sold instantly on JRich. Obviously he hasn't been the clear cut better player at all. In fact a slight downgrade. But I'm also trying to be fair and recognize that the team looks broken in a bunch of places now that could be causing JRich to look quite worse.

With that said, I'm fully prepared to admit that trade was a failure when the time comes because how does one just give away Curry like that.

And the fact we passed up S.Bey.....ugh. Still hurts. Need bourbon.

Curry has elite skills but is more one dimensional, JRich is probably a more well rounded player when you account for defense but I don't think he's show anything elite.   I'll take an elite skill over a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none any day.  JRich is also expiring and will probably cost more to retain than Curry's very reasonable contract.  At the very least, they should have extracted more value from the trade based on the contracts alone.  Curry also wanted to be here given that he signed with the team twice and we should never take that for granted.

[Mavs2021]

Something to keep in mind, when doing these fantasy trades. The MBT has never ever traded for upside or picks. They always try to at least win the immediate talent trade-off. Therefore deals like Wiseman seem highly unlikely.