2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[Branduil]

So, you know how Kamm is hellbent on maximizing size at every position? I am the same way, only about foot speed, agility and skills. 

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I've learned over the years that he believes you start your search at each position with the ideal body style, height and wingspan and then narrow the list according to skill-set and fit. If two ideally sized players are available, he'd want the more skilled one. He's no dummy. 

I'm the opposite. I figure out which guys I think can DO what I want them to be able to do at each position, and then I narrow the list (or ranking) down based on ideal size and length. If two adequately skilled players are available, I want the bigger, longer, stronger one. But, it starts with skillset for me. 

Neither angle is right/wrong, imo, and usually, the VERY top guys will be the same at the end of either process. 

I would just rather err on the side of having a guy who's really fast, quick and smart. What I want to avoid at pretty much any cost is trying to make a guy who's too slow or not skilled enough work out of position. Examples: Harrison Barnes is a 4, not a 3. You can say he's not a good 4, and that's fine, but playing him at the 3 doesn't solve the problem. If he's not good enough for you at the 4 because of his size, then he's simply not good enough, period.

I'm not an OPJ expert, but I think if the Mavs are going to make a move for a true SF, then he needs to be able to handle the ball, and his foot speed needs to give them an athletic advantage at that position, not ONLY his size and length. The game is about covering ground quickly, nowadays. Does OPJ have an athletic advantage or a skills advantage over Paul George? I would say no, so why bother? Just keep developing DFS and hope for the best.

I COULD see OPJ making Kawhi Leonard or Lebron have to RUN in transition to keep up...idk, I just think he has what it would take to play the 4 against any team in crunch time, the small ones and the big ones. And, I think he could hold his own there most nights. 

I think OPJ could play SOME 3, I just don't see that as being a good plan for the default crunch time lineup.

EDIT: I want to reiterate that I'm not an OPJ expert. I'm not a league pass guy, but I watch the hell out of the playoffs every year. To put the above in perspective, change OPJ to Jerami Grant, and I'm CONFIDENT that I'm correct about everything above. I'm a little less confident about it regarding OPJ, but that's how I view him based on a fairly limited sampling of his game.

That's fair, but I'm not sure OPJ is an ideal full-time PF, he's lighter than DFS and Barnes. He has more of a Trevor Ariza type body, long and skinny. That's why I view him as more of a THJ replacement.


For PF I'm more interested in guys like Aaron Gordon or Grant, yeah.

[FunkBoreland]

High culture, great locker room guy with elite skill.

I don't think most people on this board realize how much of a "high culture" player is valued in a professional sports team. Your one of the few that repeatedly says this of Powell despite knowing his not the ideal Forward/Center, he has intangibles that doesn't show up on stats.

[cow]

Well, he is proving to everyone that recent injury is a thing of past. I don't see much difference between pre injury and post injury Powell, other than perhaps a little rust that need to be shaken off. That's why I don't agree that he is a huge negative. Let's take OPJ example. Chicago will be moving him only, if they are tanking. If they are tanking, they don't need (max) cap space because no free agent will want to go there anyway. So if Mavs are offering a pick for OPJ, they would do it, imho. Who else of the contenders can even match that 28 mil salary anyway and offer a pick?

Powell doesn't look as springing.  He'll need time to shake the rust off (I'm calling that a season).  That's why I was thinking the next TDL.  

What pick are we offering for OPJ again?   I wouldn't give up a significant asset for OPJ.  Paying JRic and OPJ in the offseason means your core is them with KP and Luka.  I think they MBT will have their sights set a tad higher than that.

I don't think most people on this board realize how much of a "high culture" player is valued in a professional sports team. Your one of the few that repeatedly says this of Powell despite knowing his not the ideal Forward/Center, he has intangibles that doesn't show up on stats.

Go through my post history. I'm the president of the Dwight Powell fan club.

[KillerLeft]

That's fair, but I'm not sure OPJ is an ideal full-time PF, he's lighter than DFS and Barnes. He has more of a Trevor Ariza type body, long and skinny.

If that's true, then maybe my assessment of him so far has been incorrect. It's very possible. 

So let me reiterate this part: if he's a 3, then I'd rather just keep DFS, who is on a great contract and can give you similar contributions (3&D only) at that position, and who you already know fits in.

[omahen]

What pick are we offering for OPJ again?   I wouldn't give up a significant asset for OPJ.  Paying JRic and OPJ in the offseason means your core is them with KP and Luka.

Of course this goes if you think OPJ can be a valuable starter on a contender. If not, you don't go through trouble trading for his 28 millions, especially not giving up THJ who you (by you I mean Mavs) like. So let's assume he is a player Mavs see as a long term 2 way wing we need and an upgrade over DFS. I don0t care paying an asset (2027 pick) if I think he is that and trade Powell contract in the process. I understand what he brings but he is overpaid and his contract will be a burden at some point. I also think he will be unplayable in playoffs, at least as a starter. DFS and Kleber are valued successors as torchbearers of Mavs culture. I may be wrong, but I think Mavs will play Luka and KP with three wings in the starting line-up. 

From (tanking) Chicago perspective is the same if they trade OPJ and eat Powell contract while get a pick or if OPJ walks in free agency and they sell their cap space for Powell type contract. 

I think they MBT will have their sights set a tad higher than that.

Let's assume again OPJ is a 15-20 mil per guy. I think this level of players is max Mavs can trade for (or sign in FA, since no one better is actually avaiable anymore). I don't think we have the ammo for Bradley Beals of the world. There are not many two way options in this 15-20 mil per range.

[Branduil]

If that's true, then maybe my assessment of him so far has been incorrect. It's very possible. 

So let me reiterate this part: if he's a 3, then I'd rather just keep DFS, who is on a great contract and can give you similar contributions (3&D only) at that position, and who you already know fits in.

Not necessarily the wrong view, but then the question remains, what to do with THJ/Powell?


It seems clear to me that the Mavs once again have tons of depth, but depth only matters so much in the playoffs once you get past the 8th guy. The ideal would be to consolidate that depth into better starters, and especially two-way players. I view OPJ as a guy who can kind of give us the good parts of THJ/DFS without their weaker parts, so it seems like a good trade to me. I understand the value of DFS' contract, and I wouldn't have been willing to give him up before this offseason, but with the Mavs adding guys like Green, Hinton, Iwundu, Bey, etc. I think he could be more valuable as a trading piece.

[StepBackJay]

Man I would love Gordon so much but MBT be like "meh not better than Powell."

[KillerLeft]

Man I would love Gordon so much but MBT be like "meh not better than Powell."

One thing I think is interesting about today is that we officially don't know what the MBT thinks about ANYTHING as of right now. 

We'll probably have to wait for the TDL to get any clarity, but I have a feeling the standards just dropped a bit.

[StepBackJay]

One thing I think is interesting about today is that we officially don't know what the MBT thinks about ANYTHING as of right now. 

We'll probably have to wait for the TDL to get any clarity, but I have a feeling the standards just dropped a bit.

True but I feel deep in my heart that they love Powell like he's their own natural born son. To me if someone gets upgraded its THJ.

[cow]

Of course this goes if you think OPJ can be a valuable starter on a contender. If not, you don't go through trouble trading for his 28 millions, especially not giving up THJ who you (by you I mean Mavs) like. So let's assume he is a player Mavs see as a long term 2 way wing we need and an upgrade over DFS. I don0t care paying an asset (2027 pick) if I think he is that and trade Powell contract in the process. I understand what he brings but he is overpaid and his contract will be a burden at some point. I also think he will be unplayable in playoffs, at least as a starter. DFS and Kleber are valued successors as torchbearers of Mavs culture. I may be wrong, but I think Mavs will play Luka and KP with three wings in the starting line-up. 

From (tanking) Chicago perspective is the same if they trade OPJ and eat Powell contract while get a pick or if OPJ walks in free agency and they sell their cap space for Powell type contract. 



Let's assume again OPJ is a 15-20 mil per guy. I think this level of players is max Mavs can trade for (or sign in FA, since no one better is actually avaiable anymore). I don't think we have the ammo for Bradley Beals of the world. There are not many two way options in this 15-20 mil per range.

I'm not giving up a FRP.

[ItsGoTime]

I view OPJ as a guy who can kind of give us the good parts of THJ/DFS without their weaker parts

This is exactly who I see OPJ as.

[StepBackJay]

This is exactly who I see OPJ as.

Would you trade OPJ for THJ + DFS?

[KillerLeft]

Not necessarily the wrong view, but then the question remains, what to do with THJ/Powell?

I like both players (if Powell comes close to full recovery) and I'm not opposed to keeping them both, if a difference maker can't be acquired. I'm also ok with bringing one or both off the bench, if that helps.

[StepBackJay]

I am already thinking the Mavs will bring everybody back next year unless they can't come to terms with THJ. He is the one guy that is a wildcard.

[Branduil]

I like both players (if Powell comes close to full recovery) and I'm not opposed to keeping them both, if a difference maker can't be acquired. I'm also ok with bringing one or both off the bench, if that helps.

To put it another way, right now it looks like the healthy starting lineup the Mavs prefer is

Luka / JRich / ___ / Powell / KP

That last spot will be filled by either THJ or DFS. If it's THJ, you're sacrificing defense. If it's DFS, you're sacrificing offense. So that's the first negative for me. Now, as you say, you can bring one off the bench. But at this point, I feel that's like adding another drop of water to the ocean. I am simply not worried about our bench at all, in fact I'm convinced they'll be one of the best in the league. We have an abundance of bench riches at every position. So I view the value added by moving one of those guys to the bench as very small, and in fact possibly a small negative if they're taking minutes from guys who might be able to contribute and build chemistry on our bench unit.

So to me OPJ (or another player like him) can solve this dilemma simply by being able to contribute similarly to either guy on both ends. Would he be amazingly better than THJ on offense? Or DFS on defense? Probably not. But you can only play 5 guys, so the fact that you can keep him on the court, in late game situations, without substituting in another guy for offense or defense, is a huge positive to me. I don't want any one-dimensional players in the starting lineup unless they're all-NBA elite at that dimension. The bench is the place for those guys.

[KillerLeft]

If it's DFS, you're sacrificing offense.

I disagree, especially if the alternative you suggest is another 3&D guy, which is how I view OPJ. If they could get a 3 who could ALSO floor the ball and make plays, I'd trade those dudes in a heartbeat. 

And, I'm not resigned to the idea that the upgrade has to be at the 3. I view Powell's spot as just as likely to be upgraded, even if you're correct that they're locked into starting him there FOR NOW, with THIS roster. That's certainly the position Giannis would've played, after all. So, we KNOW there are players they'd replace Powell with. 

Finally, while I don't know if the Mavs agree with this, MY opinion is that DFS is more desirable to keep and build around than Powell, and I LIKE Powell (before injury). I just REALLY like DFS. 

I hope that all makes sense.

[Dundalis]

To put it another way, right now it looks like the healthy starting lineup the Mavs prefer is

Luka / JRich / ___ / Powell / KP

That last spot will be filled by either THJ or DFS. If it's THJ, you're sacrificing defense. If it's DFS, you're sacrificing offense. So that's the first negative for me. Now, as you say, you can bring one off the bench. But at this point, I feel that's like adding another drop of water to the ocean. I am simply not worried about our bench at all, in fact I'm convinced they'll be one of the best in the league. We have an abundance of bench riches at every position. So I view the value added by moving one of those guys to the bench as very small, and in fact possibly a small negative if they're taking minutes from guys who might be able to contribute and build chemistry on our bench unit.

So to me OPJ (or another player like him) can solve this dilemma simply by being able to contribute similarly to either guy on both ends. Would he be amazingly better than THJ on offense? Or DFS on defense? Probably not. But you can only play 5 guys, so the fact that you can keep him on the court, in late game situations, without substituting in another guy for offense or defense, is a huge positive to me. I don't want any one-dimensional players in the starting lineup unless they're all-NBA elite at that dimension. The bench is the place for those guys.

Powell and KP together is already sacrificing defense. You need to surround KP with as many good perimeter defenders as possible to hide his defensive weaknesses in space and maximise his interior defense. And DFS is much better at the 4 than the 3. A lineup of Luka/JRich/THJ/Powell/KP is actually not really much of a defensive upgrade on last years starting unit post Powell injury. Completely defeats the purpose of the defensive minded focus. I'm not saying they won't roll with that kind of lineup when KP is back, but it would be a stupid decision if they really want to actually be a much better defensive team. The only big we have suited to playing large minutes with KP while keeping defensive flexibility is Maxi. But ideally, KP is the sole big and DFS is the starting 4. THJ at the 3, but I hope he's gone at the TDL in a trade for something better.

Also OPJ sounds great. The problem is he's useless if he's not playing, and predominantly that's what he's been doing. Not playing.

[IamDougieFresh]

We can win it all by putting the right pieces around Luka/KP. No third star needed!!!

[KillerLeft]

Powell and KP together is already sacrificing defense. You need to surround KP with as many good perimeter defenders as possible to hide his defensive weaknesses in space and maximise his interior defense. And DFS is much better at the 4 than the 3.

I agree with the philosophy your opinions stem from, believe me. 

I don't think the specific application of them to the examples above are correct, however. As Kammrath loves to point out on a daily basis, the data says that Powell/KP is a GOOD defensive pairing, and that DFS is much better at the 3 than the 4. 

But again, I'm with you on the overall philosophy.

[StepBackJay]

We can win it all by putting the right pieces around Luka/KP. No third star needed!!!

Step 1. Lock Dwight Powell into the starting lineup for the next 3 years. Step 2. There's no step 2!!!