TRADE: Davis, Hardy, DLO, Exum to WAS | Middleton, filler, 2 FRPs, 3 SRPs to DAL

[KillerLeft]

KL I was ready to move on from AD and was overjoyed when I just heard the trade and picks. 

Then reality set in when the details came out that we got a pile of crap and cap space that historically has not meant much for this franchise.  I fully understand that AD has not even been able to keep himself healthy for a month to up his value. I understand the money saved. I would have punted to one more offseason, since we are not trying to win anyway, given that the returns we got back are terrible and some vague hope with cap space. Meanwhile there is a good possibility that the Wiz GM most likely will trade AD next year and end up with more than we did.

It's not "cap space" though. 

It's being allowed to make trades that are possible, without the intense constraints they were dealing with lately (part of why this trade was underwhelming to you). It's being allowed to make offers this summer at the full MLE level (which they've traditionally done ok with, actually). The list goes on and on. They were stuck, and it was only going to get worse. Now they're not. 

I don't really agree there's a "good" chance for the emboldened, last sentence, but I acknowledge there's a chance. But at some point you just can't afford to spin your wheels for years at a time - that's how you become Portland with Jerami Grant, just as an example. If Flagg wasn't here, I'd be right there with you, and I doubt this deal would've been made in that scenario. They just needed to get busy building around Flagg, and AD's presence off the court, with his pending contractual status, combined with his HUGE current contract, and, to a certain extent even his presence on the court, was getting in the way of that. 

Now, Gafford/Lively is once again a potential area of strength. Now, one can envision ways in which Flagg might fit with that tandem. There are so many ways in which closing this door might open others. But you're absolutely right - they still have to walk through the right ones.

[BigDirk41]

Good player bad situation. It's not like Jones is suddenly going to turn this thing into a .500 club but he's very efficient and will drive the bus between the lines. Huge upgrade over the other PGs. I love BWill as a player but he's not a point guard and Nembhardt may not stick in the NBA.

Agreed on the upgrade part and I'm happy we have him. I'm just not int in keeping him unless it's on a value contract unless he just blows everyone away these last few months.

[KillerLeft]

I would add one more thing in favor of the AD trade, potentially: Having this situation resolved MIGHT actually make the job more attractive to potential GM candidates. The total lack of flexibility to choose a direction had to have been viewed as a negative out there...

[vfromlmf]

Question: Is Khris Middleton our Harrison Barnes?

[F Gump]

Sucks Klay was not traded.  I really thought he could help a team off the bench.   Man, teams are running away from salaries for bench players.

Mavs need floor spacers badly, for Flagg, even as soon as yesterday while he is expanding his game. I think that's a significant part of the equation with Klay.

[mvossman]

KL I was ready to move on from AD and was overjoyed when I just heard the trade and picks. 

Then reality set in when the details came out that we got a pile of crap and cap space that historically has not meant much for this franchise.  I fully understand that AD has not even been able to keep himself healthy for a month to up his value. I understand the money saved. I would have punted to one more offseason, since we are not trying to win anyway, given that the returns we got back are terrible and some vague hope with cap space. Meanwhile there is a good possibility that the Wiz GM most likely will trade AD next year and end up with more than we did.

This is not the same cap space that we had for years with Cuban plan powder.  They didn't do this to go for a big prize in free agency, they did it to get out from under the aprons and to avoid paying 130 mil in tax for a rebuilding team.  Its clear Dumont was not going to pay that, so they did not have the luxury of waiting another season.  And that is just half the space.  The other half can be used to bring in players with TPEs (potentially with picks attached) and the full MLE.  If I were going to put a ball park value on the room they made I would say:

It would have cost roughly 2 first round picks (or more) to get off 27 mil in the offseason when everyone knows that is what you are doing.
TPEs including one worth 20+ mil.  We could use that to trade for a player or take on salary for a first
The full MLE.  You can get quality players with this.  We got Naji last season for less than this.

That is a very rough stab at the ballpark value, but if we didn't shed any cap but got 3 more firsts in addition to the full MLE, would that trade look better?

[DanSchwartzgan]

Taking stock ... Mavs deal four players who never play and got five picks plus:

AD --> Bagley is a solid backup center who played with and previously complimented Gafford. A "change of pace back" who could resign for the minimum

DLO --> T Jones is one of the best floor-general, ball security, backup PGs in the league, who could resign for $6-7 mil

Hardy --> AJJ is higher upside flyer who only turned 21 two months ago

Exum --> Middleton is a better veteran wing, strong culture guy, who has won a title and could resign for the minimum

All things considered, Mavs had a great deadline. They're not a playoff team but they'll be very watchable and some of these guys should stick. Predict Bagley will be a fan favorite. He's better than you think.

Smart takes across the board.  It will be interesting to see what they decide on Middleton.  I tend to agree about him being a strong culture guy.  Unfortunately, his body has started to fail him and what was once an incredibly consistent positive on-court player has become a negative (albeit on a bad Wizards team).   Bagley makes signing Cisse to a standard contract unnecessary (assuming Bagley is retained).  The same regarding Nembhard because of Jones + Williams (and Middleton and Naji).

It makes sense that the team would want to put some grown-ups around Flagg and let him play in a system that has some semblance of feeling like a real NBA system.  I think Omahen said this positions them to start to build a culture.  Unfortunately, that approach may cost them a few ping pong balls.  For all of the reasons you cite, I'd probably run with the 15 we have.  There are things to be learned from Flagg having a Usage in the mid 30's (like his last game) on a bad team, but not all of those things are positive.  There are also things to be learned from placing him in the midst of good role models who are at least competent in their roles.  The inflection point for that to me is the decision on Middleton.

[cow]

I would add one more thing in favor of the AD trade, potentially: Having this situation resolved MIGHT actually make the job more attractive to potential GM candidates. The total lack of flexibility to choose a direction had to have been viewed as a negative out there...

I'm not sure I see that viewpoint.  And trading away AD solidifies the direction the Mavs are taking which by definition makes them less flexible than had they let the new GM decide.  If I were interviewing for the position, I'd also have prepared how I would have handled the Doncic and AD situations/trades and point how where I think the previous leaderships went wrong and how I would have maximized the returns on both should it have come to that point.  Also, there are only so many of these types of jobs available and the typically only become available because of underperformance by the previous regime.

[mvossman]

It's not "cap space" though. 

It's being allowed to make trades that are possible, without the intense constraints they were dealing with lately (part of why this trade was underwhelming to you). It's being allowed to make offers this summer at the full MLE level (which they've traditionally done ok with, actually). The list goes on and on. They were stuck, and it was only going to get worse. Now they're not. 

I don't really agree there's a "good" chance for the emboldened, last sentence, but I acknowledge there's a chance. But at some point you just can't afford to spin your wheels for years at a time - that's how you become Portland with Jerami Grant, just as an example. If Flagg wasn't here, I'd be right there with you, and I doubt this deal would've been made in that scenario. They just needed to get busy building around Flagg, and AD's presence off the court, with his pending contractual status, combined with his HUGE current contract, and, to a certain extent even his presence on the court, was getting in the way of that. 

Now, Gafford/Lively is once again a potential area of strength. Now, one can envision ways in which Flagg might fit with that tandem. There are so many ways in which closing this door might open others. But you're absolutely right - they still have to walk through the right ones.

I'm too slow with my responses.  If I had seen this I wouldn't have bothered as its much better put.

[KillerLeft]

I'm not sure I see that viewpoint.  And trading away AD solidifies the direction the Mavs are taking which by definition makes them less flexible than had they let the new GM decide.  If I were interviewing for the position, I'd also have prepared how I would have handled the Doncic and AD situations/trades and point how where I think the previous leaderships went wrong and how I would have maximized the returns on both should it have come to that point.  Also, there are only so many of these types of jobs available and the typically only become available because of underperformance by the previous regime.

I think for most people, dealing with the AD situation means getting him out of here. I just think sooner or later, there was no way around that. 

If I, as a potential GM candidate, thought I could've done better than this deal, I might agree with you. But, my current leaning is that not many of them out there likely feel that way, and most of them are more likely to be glad to have this ugly business handled (Luka trade chapter closed as much as possible) before they take the reigns. Now, the first steps can be to build up, not to tear down. They are WAY more flexible now than yesterday. There are way more paths forward than there were yesterday. Want to get rid of Martin? You can now afford to throw away a 2nd to do it (though I wouldn't, personally). The point is: there are now options, and every conversation in that building doesn't have to be about how to maximize the asset that is AD without giving him an extension, which I think might have been a tougher topic to avoid the longer he was here.

I'm higher on AD's play than most here, so I get it, to an extent. But, we're close to it. I can't escape the feeling that I had prior to the Luka trade and again immediately after: I would not want him on my team because he's always hurt. That's simply a black cloud that I wouldn't want to be my central preoccupation, were I offered the chance to run a team. Heck, even if I DID feel like I could've done better, I might STILL be happy that was handled before I took the job, frankly.

[hakeemfaan]

I did hear on the FAN yesterday that AD’ reps started talking about his next contract and that was the final straw for the Mavs management to just be done with his era here. If there was something that pushed them over the edge then I can somewhat understand this move.

[mvossman]

I think for most people, dealing with the AD situation means getting him out of here. I just think sooner or later, there was no way around that. 

If I, as a potential GM candidate, thought I could've done better than this deal, I might agree with you. But, my current leaning is that not many of them out there likely feel that way, and most of them are more likely to be glad to have this ugly business handled (Luka trade chapter closed as much as possible) before they take the reigns. Now, the first steps can be to build up, not to tear down. They are WAY more flexible now than yesterday. There are way more paths forward than there were yesterday. Want to get rid of Martin? You can now afford to throw away a 2nd to do it (though I wouldn't, personally). The point is: there are now options, and every conversation in that building doesn't have to be about how to maximize the asset that is AD without giving him an extension, which I think might have been a tougher topic to avoid the longer he was here.

I'm wondering if this TDL makes it more likely they give Riccardi the GM position.  The AD deal was supposedly his.

[hakeemfaan]

I'm higher on AD's play than most here, so I get it, to an extent. But, we're close to it. I can't escape the feeling that I had prior to the Luka trade and again immediately after: I would not want him on my team because he's always hurt. That's simply a black cloud that I wouldn't want to be my central preoccupation, were I offered the chance to run a team. Heck, even if I DID feel like I could've done better, I might STILL be happy that was handled before I took the job, frankly.

I tried to make excuses for him but the reality is he came out of shape this season while Luka came in like when he was first drafted. Given Nico’ primary reason to trade Luka, AD sporting a beer belly was the perfect wrap up to the worst trade in the history of the sport.

[Mavs2021]

Most simple way Mavs probably looked at this is that they still got Kyrie, Washington, Lively and Gafford. 

They replaced THJ/Green with Christie/Thompson. 
They replaced  DJJ/Kleber with Marshall/Middleton/Bagley.
They replaced Luka with Flagg +1st round pick.
They still have a MLE to play with.

So how much worse has it really gotten than the NBA finals team?

I´m not underestimating Luka here, but I can also understand why they did not make another move, unless it was a complete no brainer. It´s also easier to sell Kyrie and the other vets on the tank, when they know there will be a chance to "compete" next year.

The biggest issues the Mavs have are the health of Kyrie, Lively and Gafford.

[Tyler]

I'm wondering if this TDL makes it more likely they give Riccardi the GM position.  The AD deal was supposedly his.

My prediction is that Riccardi will be the GM and Dumont will hire a new President of Basketball Operations to be Riccardi's boss. Lots of teams are structured like that, and it also helps prevent situations like we saw with Nico where one guy made boneheaded decisions in isolation.

[hakeemfaan]

This is not the same cap space that we had for years with Cuban plan powder.  They didn't do this to go for a big prize in free agency, they did it to get out from under the aprons and to avoid paying 130 mil in tax for a rebuilding team.  Its clear Dumont was not going to pay that, so they did not have the luxury of waiting another season.  And that is just half the space.  The other half can be used to bring in players with TPEs (potentially with picks attached) and the full MLE.  If I were going to put a ball park value on the room they made I would say:

It would have cost roughly 2 first round picks (or more) to get off 27 mil in the offseason when everyone knows that is what you are doing.
TPEs including one worth 20+ mil.  We could use that to trade for a player or take on salary for a first
The full MLE.  You can get quality players with this.  We got Naji last season for less than this.

That is a very rough stab at the ballpark value, but if we didn't shed any cap but got 3 more firsts in addition to the full MLE, would that trade look better?

I hear all of you, but I also see players who have talent and are past 30 still commanding very good value. Even Cavs fans are on record as saying that had AD stayed healthy they would easily move an Allen or a Mobley for him. AD is still a force when healthy. It’s not like a total bust who we have to entice other teams to take.  So I am not fully agreeing that the Mavs woukd have done much worse if they pushed this out. Hence I would have punted to see if I could get something more next season. Anything we got next season couldn’t  have been worse IMO.  

As for the repeater tax and flexibility , I concede it is not my money and can see if that was the  primary motivation but for an ownership that has around 70 billion and  signed off on the worst trade ever in giving up Luka, they could have taken one for the fans. I just don’t see anything with this trade that I can see as a positive right now. Hope one of those picks pan out.

[F Gump]

I'm wondering if this TDL makes it more likely they give Riccardi the GM position.  The AD deal was supposedly his.

I hope it's not Riccardi. Or Finley. I didn't want either of them in the big chair before this trade, and I still don't. I want someone who is a proven, elite-level GM in negotiation, player evaluation (and development), and roster building. Please, no more "trying to learn on the job" guys.

[mvossman]

Most simple way Mavs probably looked at this is that they still got Kyrie, Washington, Lively and Gafford. 

They replaced THJ/Green with Christie/Thompson. 
They replaced  DJJ/Kleber with Marshall/Middleton/Bagley.
They replaced Luka with Flagg +1st round pick.
They still have a MLE to play with.

So how much worse has it really gotten than the NBA finals team?

I´m not underestimating Luka here, but I can also understand why they did not make another move, unless it was a complete no brainer. It´s also easier to sell Kyrie and the other vets on the tank, when they know there will be a chance to "compete" next year.

The biggest issues the Mavs have are the health of Kyrie, Lively and Gafford.

To be fair, Kyrie will be in his mid 30s and probably not in his prime like 24, and it will probably take a few years before Flagg is playing at 24 Luka level.  I still think a lot of these guys need to be traded for younger better fitting parts if possible.  I could see there being a lot of activity in the offseason.

[cow]

I think for most people, dealing with the AD situation means getting him out of here. I just think sooner or later, there was no way around that. 

If I, as a potential GM candidate, thought I could've done better than this deal, I might agree with you. But, my current leaning is that not many of them out there likely feel that way, and most of them are more likely to be glad to have this ugly business handled (Luka trade chapter closed as much as possible) before they take the reigns. Now, the first steps can be to build up, not to tear down. They are WAY more flexible now than yesterday. There are way more paths forward than there were yesterday. Want to get rid of Martin? You can now afford to throw away a 2nd to do it (though I wouldn't, personally). The point is: there are now options, and every conversation in that building doesn't have to be about how to maximize the asset that is AD without giving him an extension, which I think might have been a tougher topic to avoid the longer he was here.

I'm higher on AD's play than most here, so I get it, to an extent. But, we're close to it. I can't escape the feeling that I had prior to the Luka trade and again immediately after: I would not want him on my team because he's always hurt. That's simply a black cloud that I wouldn't want to be my central preoccupation, were I offered the chance to run a team. Heck, even if I DID feel like I could've done better, I might STILL be happy that was handled before I took the job, frankly.

I agree that AD wasn't in the long term plans, but I also don't think he was necessary be traded by the TDL.  I don't really want to rehash that debate, but I don't think however this TDL shook out, it would dissuade a potential candidate.  If I'm unemployed and want the job, I'll point out where the team has gone wrong lately and my plan to course correct and build around Flagg.  If I have a GM job and you want me, I'm just going to give a list of demands (salary, final say on all decisions, etc.) and layout a plan to build around Flagg.  We have more cap flexibility sure, but there are multiple ways of peeling that potato.  This is eerily similar to the reaction to the KP trade on this board.  I think most people were just happy to have him in the rear view mirror which is valid, but we dug a hole getting him in the first place, sold him at his lowest possible value.  At least the AD deal didn't further dig the hole like KP did.  

I think you overthinking the part about what a GM thinks about the reputational damage done by the Luka trade and if they do care about that stuff, I don't really want them here anyway.  I want someone with a vision who will execute on that vision and if that means going backwards  for a while, I'm going to give them enough rope to hang themselves  with, fan sentiment be damned.  And trading away AD doesn't come close to undoing the reparational damage done to the franchise or the hurt the collective fanbase feels.

[Winter]

To be fair, Kyrie will be in his mid 30s and probably not in his prime like 24, and it will probably take a few years before Flagg is playing at 24 Luka level.  I still think a lot of these guys need to be traded for younger better fitting parts if possible.  I could see there being a lot of activity in the offseason.

Yeah, Im not sure if this even qualifies as the trade before the trade.

I mean we still have PJ, Gafford, Naji, and Klay and all of them have value. I could easily imagine them all out-going in the summer, hopefully for a good PG and some perimeter shooting.