Game 22: Dallas Mavericks (6-15) vs. Denver Nuggets (14-5) | 8:00pm CST

[Dirknows]

God, no. He hurt his finger last night. I thought he grabbed his calf once. His shooting and rebounding were excellent, but he's still slow down the court, and not much at defending the perimeter.

It would hurt to lose him in a trade, but it would hurt worse to lose him to injury. I cross my fingers every time he plays.  We pay him too much to sit on the bench with an injury.

I mean what if the best offer is just expirings from Chicago and 1 first round pick? It doesn’t sound like there is much of a market for AD, time will tell. But I don’t want to trade him just to trade him.

[Chicagojk]

You know I am uncertain how I feel about Kidd. There are things about him that frustrate me to wits end.  Although, on the positive side he is typically turns out right about things or eventually gets there on players.   DLO is another clear example.   At this stage, he is not a lead guard.  If he is going to have success it will be in an off ball role. It is just tricky pairing him with two small point guards.

[Chicagojk]

By January, I wonder if Nembhard has more leverage and decides against signing a two year contract at the minimum.   If he is still getting starting minutes, what are his options?  Could he sign a contract for rest of the season and then be a free agent?

[Chicagojk]

saw on reddit:

\Brunson/Luka/Porzingis
Nembhard/Flagg/Davis


**********************
It is one game and just having fun, but at least something to smile about.    

[cow]

Can we get a nickname for Nembhard? I have a feeling we're going to be needing one.

RE his 3-pt percentage, I believe I read where he made some correction on his shot his senior year at Gonzaga.... when he shot over 40% from the three-point line. So I'm hoping he's found that touch again. That's a feature that kept guys like Barea in the game and Barea only averaged about 35% for his career.

Nimble

[DanSchwartzgan]

I know we all want to trade AD to try and get the best pick possible. But reality is we’re likely to end up in the 8-12 range of the lottery. If they can commit to playing AD at the 5 is it better to keep him and hope for some lottery luck and go into next year with a healthy Kyrie/AD/Flagg trio?

I posted something Stein wrote Sunday in another thread yesterday.  He was basically making the case (my words) that being 6-10 in ping pong balls isn't that different from being 1-5.  I think he heard that from the team and was warning the Hard Tank crowd that we won't prioritize being among the worst teams in the league.

I mentioned this from the very first post I wrote about a stealth tank.  Playing AD will cost us losses.  It is nearly impossible to hard tank and showcase AD.  If we trade him in December/January, we will have probably locked ourselves into the latter half of the lottery.  Or....

I've also written that Dallas has twice in three years given itself flexibility (playoffs or pick) up until the very end of each season.  In both cases they went with the pick.  I could see them hanging around 8/9 if Kyrie comes back healthy and deciding what to do based on how things look.  This might be true whether AD is traded or not.  It isn't hard to imagine this team being pretty good with what we saw last night plus Lively playing the Powell minutes, Kyrie pushing the Nembhard minutes to the bench and PJ getting the Naji minutes.  It could also look good if AD is traded depending on whether the return is more pick oriented or more current player oriented.

Bottom line, the Keep AD crowd and the Trade AD crowd both saw what they needed to see last night.  AD helping get a road win against a good team with a 30 point double double is helpful to both causes.  The Hard Tank crowd took a hit last night, but I think that was always going to happen no matter what once AD came back.

[soog]

Exactly this ☝️. The long term plan (keep AD or trade AD) doesn’t have to be decided now because both plans start with getting AD healthy, giving him minutes, and hoping he plays well.

Which way is the correct path forward will probably be more clear in several months time.

[JAYJAYBEE5]

Ryan Nembhard= JJB
Cooper Flagg=Dirk

Those are two good pieces for the future.

[Dirknows]

I posted something Stein wrote Sunday in another thread yesterday.  He was basically making the case (my words) that being 6-10 in ping pong balls isn't that different from being 1-5.  I think he heard that from the team and was warning the Hard Tank crowd that we won't prioritize being among the worst teams in the league.

I mentioned this from the very first post I wrote about a stealth tank.  Playing AD will cost us losses.  It is nearly impossible to hard tank and showcase AD.  If we trade him in December/January, we will have probably locked ourselves into the latter half of the lottery.  Or....

I've also written that Dallas has twice in three years given itself flexibility (playoffs or pick) up until the very end of each season.  In both cases they went with the pick.  I could see them hanging around 8/9 if Kyrie comes back healthy and deciding what to do based on how things look.  This might be true whether AD is traded or not.  It isn't hard to imagine this team being pretty good with what we saw last night plus Lively playing the Powell minutes, Kyrie pushing the Nembhard minutes to the bench and PJ getting the Naji minutes.  It could also look good if AD is traded depending on whether the return is more pick oriented or more current player oriented.

Bottom line, the Keep AD crowd and the Trade AD crowd both saw what they needed to see last night.  AD helping get a road win against a good team with a 30 point double double is helpful to both causes.  The Hard Tank crowd took a hit last night, but I think that was always going to happen no matter what once AD came back.

No doubt, we’re not finishing bottom 5 with this roster. I get the sentiment behind wanting to trade AD cuz he’s an injury waiting to happen. But unless we get a really good offer I think I’d rather keep AD, and let the record fall where it does. I mean we won the lottery last year after being a game away from the playoffs.

[myconsumerclub]

Well if Nemby is going to earn a real spot on the squad we did pretty good in last years draft so what about the other 2 rookies?

We still have Kelly to evaluate as well and Cisse has looked like a great find as well. With injuries the door is opened maybe they get a shot to show us even more. Maybe they are saving up their games for later on in the year just in case an injury means we need to use them, after all they can only play in so many. I would think Nembhard is Exum's replacement and Cisse is Powell's. What if Kelly can come in and earn some minutes to give us a replacement for Martin or Hardy? Probably they let Kelly play up in Frisco to develop more and see how well he looks there first, and that makes me curious about how he is doing.

[F Gump]

By January, I wonder if Nembhard has more leverage and decides against signing a two year contract at the minimum.   If he is still getting starting minutes, what are his options?  Could he sign a contract for rest of the season and then be a free agent?

He has no leverage. He can only sign what the Mavs offer. There are no other possible bidders, so he's unlikely to say no to whatever the Mavs offer. And fwiw, I don't expect anything to happen in this regard until late Feb, after the TDL, not early Jan.

It's the same situation (and likely will be an identical result) that they had with B Will last spring.

Mavs will also have lots of control via RFA and Arenas rules as contracts end through his 1st 3 NBA seasons (and free agency after year 3) so there's not a high risk with him while they all figure out who he is and what they need to do with contracts.

I would also note that we are excited about last night, but it was only one game. I am reminded of the emerging superstardom of Yogi Farrell once upon a time in similar circumstances. Things can look a lot different once teams begin to plan how to defend you.

[Winter]

He has no leverage. He can only sign what the Mavs offer. There are no other possible bidders, so he's unlikely to say no to whatever the Mavs offer. And fwiw, I don't expect anything to happen in this regard until late Feb, after the TDL, not early Jan.

It's the same situation (and likely will be an identical result) that they had with B Will last spring.

Mavs will also have lots of control via RFA and Arenas rules as contracts end through his 1st 3 NBA seasons (and free agency after year 3) so there's not a high risk with him while they all figure out who he is and what they need to do with contracts.

I would also note that we are excited about last night, but it was only one game. I am reminded of the emerging superstardom of Yogi Farrell once upon a time in similar circumstances. Things can look a lot different once teams begin to plan how to defend you.

I completely understand what you're saying here. Defense might be an issue. Also, just squeezing in a Yogi reference is admirable. There's been too many Brunson and Barea comparisons.

But I would rather concentrate on Nemhard's ability to run the floor. He averaged almost 10 assists at Gonzaga (the best Yogi could do is about half that in college). What he was last night was what he was at Gonzaga with a good shooting night. He also seems to grasp what the team needs at any given moment. He seems to be able to create necessary space for others.

I suspect we will know a lot more about RN after we play teams like OKC and SAS, but as a Kyrie backup I really expect him to look comfortable... and the team play better.

[mvossman]

I posted something Stein wrote Sunday in another thread yesterday.  He was basically making the case (my words) that being 6-10 in ping pong balls isn't that different from being 1-5.  I think he heard that from the team and was warning the Hard Tank crowd that we won't prioritize being among the worst teams in the league.

I mentioned this from the very first post I wrote about a stealth tank.  Playing AD will cost us losses.  It is nearly impossible to hard tank and showcase AD.  If we trade him in December/January, we will have probably locked ourselves into the latter half of the lottery.  Or....

I've also written that Dallas has twice in three years given itself flexibility (playoffs or pick) up until the very end of each season.  In both cases they went with the pick.  I could see them hanging around 8/9 if Kyrie comes back healthy and deciding what to do based on how things look.  This might be true whether AD is traded or not.  It isn't hard to imagine this team being pretty good with what we saw last night plus Lively playing the Powell minutes, Kyrie pushing the Nembhard minutes to the bench and PJ getting the Naji minutes.  It could also look good if AD is traded depending on whether the return is more pick oriented or more current player oriented.

Bottom line, the Keep AD crowd and the Trade AD crowd both saw what they needed to see last night.  AD helping get a road win against a good team with a 30 point double double is helpful to both causes.  The Hard Tank crowd took a hit last night, but I think that was always going to happen no matter what once AD came back.

Yeah, a hard tank was never a legit option, Flagg is too good.  I still think they should organic/soft tank, meaning they should be abundantly cautious with player health and any trades should be 100% Focused on the future vs this season.  A late lottery pick is significantly more valuable than a pick just outside the lottery.

[david75090]

Can we get a nickname for Nembhard? I have a feeling we're going to be needing one.

RE his 3-pt percentage, I believe I read where he made some correction on his shot his senior year at Gonzaga.... when he shot over 40% from the three-point line. So I'm hoping he's found that touch again. That's a feature that kept guys like Barea in the game and Barea only averaged about 35% for his career.

Nimble

Nemby

[BigDirk41]

I completely understand what you're saying here. Defense might be an issue. Also, just squeezing in a Yogi reference is admirable. There's been too many Brunson and Barea comparisons.

But I would rather concentrate on Nemhard's ability to run the floor. He averaged almost 10 assists at Gonzaga (the best Yogi could do is about half that in college). What he was last night was what he was at Gonzaga with a good shooting night. He also seems to grasp what the team needs at any given moment. He seems to be able to create necessary space for others.

I suspect we will know a lot more about RN after we play teams like OKC and SAS, but as a Kyrie backup I really expect him to look comfortable... and the team play better.

I agree on this take. Nembhard is an actual floor general. He is succeeding on pure knowledge of the game and skill. He's not overly athletic or tall. He just knows how to play the right way. His impact has been noticeable even when he's not scoring. I feel like this is different than Yogi or B Will last year. B will is just fast AF. He can't shoot at all. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I think we may have struck gold with Nembhard. Plus it's in his DNA. The man led NCAA in assists for Gonzaga, not some school nobody has heard of.

[KillerLeft]

The lesson learned from Nembhard isn’t limited to a debate about whether or not he, specifically, is the answer, although that’s going to be fun to debate in the coming weeks. The real lesson is about how monumentally stupid it was for the team to enter the season without a legitimate PG on the roster, or for any of us to delude ourselves for even a second into believing they had a chance to succeed without one.

Offensive creation is the only truly non-negotiable need in the sport, and even though I knew better, I allowed myself to be talked into the idea the Mavs could somehow play competitive basketball without it. Never again.

[Scott41theMavs]

If Nembhard costs us lottery position this year, just consider it a trade down for (Nembhard and worse player) for (better player).

[FireNicoHarrison]

The lesson learned from Nembhard isn’t limited to a debate about whether or not he, specifically, is the answer, although that’s going to be fun to debate in the coming weeks. The real lesson is about how monumentally stupid it was for the team to enter the season without a legitimate PG on the roster, or for any of us to delude ourselves for even a second into believing they had a chance to succeed without one.

Offensive creation is the only truly non-negotiable need in the sport, and even though I knew better, I allowed myself to be talked into the idea the Mavs could somehow play competitive basketball without it. Never again.

Kidd power play to fire Harrison. Otherwise he is the worst coach in the league.

[F Gump]

Offensive creation is the only truly non-negotiable need in the sport, and even though I knew better, I allowed myself to be talked into the idea the Mavs could somehow play competitive basketball without it. Never again.

In hindsight, obviously the Mavs have been lacking in offense. 

But strawman much? NO ONE ever said the Mavs could "play competitive basketball without [offense being created]."

Where people disagreed with you was over (1) did the Mavs have the right talent to create offense until Kyrie returns, and (2) is offense only able to be created by a one-man show type of PG, doing all the passing, or are there multiple ways to generate offense?

We had no way of knowing that the PG talent pool would NOT include Exum at all. That made a major difference, with Kyrie already sidelined, because he had proven ability to play the position well. In addition, B Will was missing too as the season began. And then there were no C's either (!) to force the opponent to defend. 

Do you think it's now "fixed" and the Mavs have adequate talent to get by until Kyrie returns?

[mvossman]

In hindsight, obviously the Mavs have been lacking in offense. 

But strawman much? NO ONE ever said the Mavs could "play competitive basketball without [offense being created]."

Where people disagreed with you was over (1) did the Mavs have the right talent to create offense until Kyrie returns, and (2) is offense only able to be created by a one-man show type of PG, doing all the passing, or are there multiple ways to generate offense?

We had no way of knowing that the PG talent pool would NOT include Exum at all. That made a major difference, with Kyrie already sidelined, because he had proven ability to play the position well. In addition, B Will was missing too as the season began. And then there were no C's either (!) to force the opponent to defend. 

Do you think it's now "fixed" and the Mavs have adequate talent to get by until Kyrie returns?

The only strawman is suggesting that anybody was arguing a heliocentric offense was necessary.  Nobody said that.  The argument was that you cannot replace the massive hit to offensive creation created by the Luka trade (and Kyrie injury) with an 18 year old rookie, a broken Dlo, an always injured Exum and a couple of 2 way kids.  You need high level offensive creation to be good offensively and the Mavs are sorely lacking it.  Exum is not a high level creator.  He was not going to make that big of a difference and he is always hurt.  Even when Kyrie comes back its going to be an issue.  It has to be the top priority for draft and trades.