Trade & FA 2024-25:

[KillerLeft]

I think my main point is when it comes to what our trade assets are, it would hurt to lose Grimes more than it would hurt to lose Gafford IMO.

In a vacuum, I agree, but in this case, Jones would be taking a big chunk of Grimes' role, more than likely. They don't play the same position, but Jones would be coming to be POA defender, WITHOUT QUESTION. That's what DJJ did last year (Jones is WAY better), and what Grimes is doing this year. Offensively, it would be a step back, but if the team is healthy, that's not a problem in my mind.

[mvossman]

I think my main point is when it comes to what our trade assets are, it would hurt to lose Grimes more than it would hurt to lose Gafford IMO.

You will get no argument from me on this.

[KillerLeft]

This seems harsh.  Gafford is definitely an above average backup center, its just that most of his value is on the offensive end.  The real issue is that he makes a lot more than most of his competition.  Teams don't spend money on backup centers unless they can also play the 4.  This has been touted as a competitive advantage, but I'm not sure if that's true, especially in the playoffs where the best teams like to play centers off the court.

I take your meaning to be "This (having two centers, not a hybrid backup) has been touted as a competitive advantage, but I'm not sure if that's true..."

If that's your aim, I'm right there with you (though I agree having two is a luxury during the regular season grind and that Gafford is a load on offense). 

The money...I just keep coming back to the idea that they will be FORCED to unload Gafford eventually, probably sooner than we think, for financial reasons. I can't shake that thought, and then you look at the defensive metrics (or just watch 10 games) and you realize he is the biggest defensive liability in the rotation, BY FAR, to the point where the ONE PLAYER who isn't forced to share the court with him for even one minute, Lively, is automatically at the TOP of those metrics, and all of this during REGULAR SEASON play, before you get into the "where the best teams like to play centers off the court" of it all. The universe is screaming at us. 

When I bring up trading Gafford, I'm not trying to get rid of him, and in fact I think it would be risky, because there are ways of trading him that might look like huge mistakes, at least in the short term. But, I think we're pretty close to the highest his value is ever going to be, and might have even passed that point about a month back. If they could somehow capitalize by selling HIGH and possibly even getting a better overall player who'd help, like Jones for example, then that's something I wouldn't hate because again, I don't think Gafford is on this team in two years, anyway, and I don't think there's going to be much of a choice at some point. 

Having said all that, when it comes to Jones...if they want Gafford, cool. If they want Kleber, cool. If they want Grimes, cool. I really like how I think Jones would look on this team. So, it's kind of two separate conversations for me. I would not let ANY of those players keep me from acquiring Herb Jones in a world where that was my choice. I think I might prefer the Kleber/Grimes package because of Jones taking a big chunk of Grimes' role, and because the financial uncertainty with him is coming even sooner than it is with Gafford.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

In a vacuum, I agree, but in this case, Jones would be taking a big chunk of Grimes' role, more than likely. They don't play the same position, but Jones would be coming to be POA defender, WITHOUT QUESTION. That's what DJJ did last year (Jones is WAY better), and what Grimes is doing this year. Offensively, it would be a step back, but if the team is healthy, that's not a problem in my mind.

For sure, I should have caveated that I would pull the trigger on Maxi+Grimes+2025FRP for Herb for the reasons you laid out but he's on a very short list of realistic players I would do that for, probably the only one.  I would just prefer us using Gafford instead if it was an option.

I'd go a step further to tie back to my initial point.  If you make that trade I would argue you still end up seeing less Gafford in the playoffs in favor of a PJ/Herb front court small ball lineup.

[KillerLeft]

I'd go a step further to tie back to my initial point.  If you make that trade I would argue you still end up seeing less Gafford in the playoffs in favor of a PJ/Herb front court small ball lineup.

Interesting point. Not sure if I agree or not. I might. 

Do you mean "less Gafford in the playoffs" relative to how much Grimes we'd see if Gafford was outgoing? If so, I don't know what I think, honestly. I'd have to think about it. If you mean "less Gafford in the playoffs" generally, just as the result of adding another competent front court player, I totally agree.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Interesting point. Not sure if I agree or not. I might. 

Do you mean "less Gafford in the playoffs" relative to how much Grimes we'd see if Gafford was outgoing? If so, I don't know what I think, honestly. I'd have to think about it. If you mean "less Gafford in the playoffs" generally, just as the result of adding another competent front court player, I totally agree.

I mean just in general by adding to the front court.  Honestly even if we don't make a move and Maxi is healthier this post season than compared to last, I could see Gafford's role being smaller than it was during the post season last year.

Could be wrong but you could already see Kidd trying to limit his role in the Boston series after he had a pretty ineffective series against the Thunder (another team that plays 5 out).  I think his role will be totally matchup dependent and only expands based on Lively's foul trouble this time around.  I really enjoy watching Gafford play and the energy and rim protection he brings to the floor, it was just apparent that his minutes caused matchup problems in the wrong direction when it really mattered last year and I expect an adjustment this time around.

Very interested if Maxi can build on what he showed last night if Gafford misses extended time.  Could be a chance for him to build some much needed confidence right now.  I know this board likes to argue about Maxi's position from time to time but it's always baffled me because of the impact he made from the 5 during the 2022 run, he showed off all the sort of skills you want to see in a backup center during that.

[SleepingHero]

Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) on X
Herb Jones looks like his right shoulder may be bothering him. He pointed to the bench and asked to come out of the game. Headed to the locker room now.

It was his right shoulder that forced him to miss a month earlier this season.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

He got a text from Nico to lower that trade value if you want out of New Orleans.

[KillerLeft]

Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) on X
Herb Jones looks like his right shoulder may be bothering him. He pointed to the bench and asked to come out of the game. Headed to the locker room now.

It was his right shoulder that forced him to miss a month earlier this season.

Seems like he'll fit right in with this squad.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Yes, C hides Maxi's degraded game more than PF.  He's not the backup C we need, tho.  Gafford is.  I don't understand why everyone is so quick to trade away Gafford when we have a 1-2 punch at C that no one can match.  Not to mention...  Maxi is always hurt.  Trending towards 800 minutes this year.  IMO, Obi is our answer to replace Maxi.

When I saw the news about Dallas shopping aggressively and Grimes/Maxi as possibly outgoing, the names that came to mind were H. Jones, Obi and Avdija.  Grimes is the prize here and his $4mm outgoing gets you to some bigger incoming numbers than some of our other options (like Hardy).  But, man have I liked him here.  I think one issue with him may be the lack of certainty around his 25/26 salary versus the financial certainty you get with these other guys.  Moving on from Maxi a year earlier is also helpful when thinking ahead to the summer.  You might be paying $28-$30 million next season for Maxi and Grimes.  Or, you might be paying that same amount for one of the guys above and get a MLE level signing or trade who is better than Maxi.

I've gravitated toward Obi.  I've liked his athleticism since his early days in NY.  I have trouble seeing Grimes as the centerpiece of deals to New Orleans or Portland.  But, Mathurin has been a disappointment and they are headed toward extensionville this summer.  I can certainly see them wanting restricted Grimes instead of the high expectations of the former number 6 pick.  I'm not saying they would give him away (but he has been in trade rumors).  Also, which coach in the entire NBA would value Maxi more highly than Carlisle.

We don't send our 2025 first AND Grimes in such a deal (for Jones maybe, but not Obi).  Something I find interesting here related to FG pointing out the roster crunch with two picks this summer.  I wouldn't mind swapping our 2025 for Indy's 2028 (and maybe our 2028 second back as they have three that year).  That way we can send out 3 future firsts again if the need were to arise.  Obi for Grimes helps with size and hurts on D.   As good as Grimes has been this season, Obi has been just as good and he and PJ give you very switchable bigs if you decide to go small in the playoffs.  Maxi gives you that too, but Obi also has a post game, can drive against a close-out and takes and hits (this season) his 3's.  I wouldn't mind this in the grand scheme of things when the future financials and a possible swap of picks is also included.  But, I liked it much better when we were talking about Maxi/Hardy/2025 than I do including Grimes.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I liked it much better when we were talking about Maxi/Hardy/2025 than I do including Grimes.

Didn’t exactly age well.  Nice little cluster of good games from Hardy recently.

[ballsrchr]

Didn’t exactly age well.  Nice little cluster of good games from Hardy recently.

Ah...I missed that, or decided other parts of your post were more important.  I think somebody mentioned that Hardy is a two guard and should be played like that.  I sort of agree, but believe his plays should be mixed up a bit.  He also still needs to work on his ball handling and dribbling into traffic.  More playing time...I think he will come around for the Mavs.

[david75090]

Last night, when it looked like the starters were lethargic, Hardy came in and gave them a spark. His 3s started to fall, then he could dance around, and dribble, then could blow past his man when they came up to challenge his 3. Finished at the rim a little better than usual. Would like to see more of that, as opposed to the dribble-in-traffic-turnover thing he sometimes has going.

I was guilty of giving up on them too soon in the 4th. Ended up switching to the college football playoff game, and then checking on the Mavs score late in the 4th quarter, and got pleasantly surprised.

[Chicagojk]

Ah...I missed that, or decided other parts of your post were more important.  I think somebody mentioned that Hardy is a two guard and should be played like that.  I sort of agree, but believe his plays should be mixed up a bit.  He also still needs to work on his ball handling and dribbling into traffic.  More playing time...I think he will come around for the Mavs.

Yeah, like most players, Hardy looks much better when he is making shots.  Especially for a scorer.  Last year he got better as the year went on.  It will be tough for him to get minutes when everyone is healthy.   Although the more good games he strings together, the more chances Kidd will look for him.

I agree that Hardy is weak with ball handling and that is not his strength.  Although it is good for his development to work on this and get better.    He he can be average/above average at this, it will be much, much, much better for his bank account moving forward.   It will probably never be a strong point, but can it be average?  That should be the goal.   He has made somre really nice passes.  Although, him being an attacker he tends to dribble into trouble.  Especially against really connected devices.   He just needs to learn when to attack and when not to.  Also when to go to the rim and when to pull up.    His first reaction is to put his head down and go to the rim.  That is what he has been doing all his life.

[Chicagojk]

.  Something I find interesting here related to FG pointing out the roster crunch with two picks this summer.  I wouldn't mind swapping our 2025 for Indy's 2028 (and maybe our 2028 second back as they have three that year).  That way we can send out 3 future firsts again if the need were to arise.  Obi for Grimes helps with size and hurts on D.   As good as Grimes has been this season, Obi has been just as good and he and PJ give you very switchable bigs if you decide to go small in the playoffs.  Maxi gives you that too, but Obi also has a post game, can drive against a close-out and takes and hits (this season) his 3's.  I wouldn't mind this in the grand scheme of things when the future financials and a possible swap of picks is also included.  But, I liked it much better when we were talking about Maxi/Hardy/2025 than I do including Grimes.

I have been thinking about our 2025 first.  I would be fine with several directions:  Taking a player; trading the pick and Maxi to clear out space to sign a FA (if possible), or as you mention trading that pick for a future pick.    This would help us acquire more assets for future us.  This could also be true for the Philly second round pick too.  Second round picks tend to be passed around for peanuts, but the Mavs lack second round picks in the future.  Could they pick up two for the future?

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

I'm starting to really hope they don't move Grimes for anyone that isn't named Giannis and focus on what the plan is to retain him. Going to be tough since there's not a lot of places to dump players into someone else's cap space but luckily we've worked with a couple of them the past couple seasons already (DET and CHA). I love Herb Jones and he was the one name I was comfortable moving Grimes for but I feel like the drop in offense is going to be bigger than the gains on defense at this point.

[mvossman]

I'm starting to really hope they don't move Grimes for anyone that isn't named Giannis and focus on what the plan is to retain him.  Going to be tough since there's not a lot of places to dump players into someone else's cap space but luckily we've worked with a couple of them the past couple seasons already (DET and CHA).  I love Herb Jones and he was the one name I was comfortable moving Grimes for but I feel like the drop in offense is going to be bigger than the gains on defense at this point.

Yeah, I'm starting to really wish we had offered the full MLE in the offseason.  These injuries are exposing how good he is.

[SleepingHero]

@esidery
The Bucks are actively attempting to find a team willing to take on Pat Connaughton’s contract in a salary dump trade to get under the second apron.

Milwaukee is $6.5 million over the second apron, so if they dip below it they could gain access to aggregating salaries together.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Yeah, I'm starting to really wish we had offered the full MLE in the offseason.  These injuries are exposing how good he is.

Do we know what we did end up offering him?  I feel like I remember it being reported but can't think of the number.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

When I saw the news about Dallas shopping aggressively and Grimes/Maxi as possibly outgoing, the names that came to mind were H. Jones, Obi and Avdija.  Grimes is the prize here and his $4mm outgoing gets you to some bigger incoming numbers than some of our other options (like Hardy).  But, man have I liked him here.  I think one issue with him may be the lack of certainty around his 25/26 salary versus the financial certainty you get with these other guys.  Moving on from Maxi a year earlier is also helpful when thinking ahead to the summer.  You might be paying $28-$30 million next season for Maxi and Grimes.  Or, you might be paying that same amount for one of the guys above and get a MLE level signing or trade who is better than Maxi.

I've gravitated toward Obi.  I've liked his athleticism since his early days in NY.  I have trouble seeing Grimes as the centerpiece of deals to New Orleans or Portland.  But, Mathurin has been a disappointment and they are headed toward extensionville this summer.  I can certainly see them wanting restricted Grimes instead of the high expectations of the former number 6 pick.  I'm not saying they would give him away (but he has been in trade rumors).  Also, which coach in the entire NBA would value Maxi more highly than Carlisle.

We don't send our 2025 first AND Grimes in such a deal (for Jones maybe, but not Obi).  Something I find interesting here related to FG pointing out the roster crunch with two picks this summer.  I wouldn't mind swapping our 2025 for Indy's 2028 (and maybe our 2028 second back as they have three that year).  That way we can send out 3 future firsts again if the need were to arise.  Obi for Grimes helps with size and hurts on D.   As good as Grimes has been this season, Obi has been just as good and he and PJ give you very switchable bigs if you decide to go small in the playoffs.  Maxi gives you that too, but Obi also has a post game, can drive against a close-out and takes and hits (this season) his 3's.  I wouldn't mind this in the grand scheme of things when the future financials and a possible swap of picks is also included.  But, I liked it much better when we were talking about Maxi/Hardy/2025 than I do including Grimes.

I can see Jones and Avdija being shopped but curious why you think Obi would be made available.