X's and O's: An Ongoing Discussion of the Exquisite Art of Basketball

[KillerLeft]

https://youtu.be/MTusZmc6YJw

[KillerLeft]

https://youtu.be/hI8wq7vUxoo

I find this fascinating. This is a drastically different system than the one Carlisle ran, which was what they (under the direction of Korkoskov, I'm betting) got back to about halfway through last season to get headed back in the right direction. 

It's easy to understand then why the offense has looked bad at times, so far. It's not just Wood and McGee who are learning a new offense, it's ALL OF THEM. When the guys break the video down you can see the intent behind some of this design. Of special interest is that the Luka iso stuff seems to be the SECOND or THIRD option during most of these concepts, which means that maybe the reason we've been seeing so much of that is that the team just isn't very good (yet) at creating space for the first or second options. In theory, this should improve as they gain more comfort in the system, and just maybe games like last night, when the ball was moving around constantly, are an early indication of that improvement. 

Here's hoping.

[DanSchwartzgan]

https://youtu.be/hI8wq7vUxoo

I find this fascinating. This is a drastically different system than the one Carlisle ran, which was what they (under the direction of Korkoskov, I'm betting) got back to about halfway through last season to get headed back in the right direction. 

It's easy to understand then why the offense has looked bad at times, so far. It's not just Wood and McGee who are learning a new offense, it's ALL OF THEM. When the guys break the video down you can see the intent behind some of this design. Of special interest is that the Luka iso stuff seems to be the SECOND or THIRD option during most of these concepts, which means that maybe the reason we've been seeing so much of that is that the team just isn't very good (yet) at creating space for the first or second options. In theory, this should improve as they gain more comfort in the system, and just maybe games like last night, when the ball was moving around constantly, are an early indication of that improvement. 

Here's hoping.

This is excellent!

[KillerLeft]

https://youtu.be/MTusZmc6YJw

One thing I want to point out about this one:

As you watch this video, notice how often the spacers are camped out WAY behind the 3point line. This was brought to our attention recently by Voulgaris over twitter when he talked about how he had the Mavs put boxes on the court several feet behind the line while he worked there. He had stolen the idea from Toronto and another team (I want to say Brooklyn) and was convinced it led to the Mavs' (at that time) unparalleled spacing and back-to-back seasons of setting the standard for offensive efficiency. I remember this well because he was admonishing Kidd through Twitter for removing those boxes from the practice court.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

https://youtu.be/hI8wq7vUxoo

I find this fascinating. This is a drastically different system than the one Carlisle ran, which was what they (under the direction of Korkoskov, I'm betting) got back to about halfway through last season to get headed back in the right direction. 

It's easy to understand then why the offense has looked bad at times, so far. It's not just Wood and McGee who are learning a new offense, it's ALL OF THEM. When the guys break the video down you can see the intent behind some of this design. Of special interest is that the Luka iso stuff seems to be the SECOND or THIRD option during most of these concepts, which means that maybe the reason we've been seeing so much of that is that the team just isn't very good (yet) at creating space for the first or second options. In theory, this should improve as they gain more comfort in the system, and just maybe games like last night, when the ball was moving around constantly, are an early indication of that improvement. 

Here's hoping.

This video definitely changed the way I was thinking of this offense vs last year's offense.  Last year it felt like it was a healthy balance of the three man sets with two corner spacers that Kidd loves to run (stack, spain, horns, etc.) and the rest being Luka just matchup hunting.  This year it has felt like the balance swung heavy towards Luka just matchup hunting but this video gives me a lot of hope in the sense that it's less Luka matchup hunting to score and more Luka finding his best post up matchup to initiate this new offense.  I always felt it was just Luka getting to a spot and 4 guys then clustered on the weakside but now I realize it's more about using a Luka post up to put a lot of pressure on the defense AND our other four players running off the ball action to put additional things the defense needs to account for while also putting people in places for Luka to find them, which is honestly super clever.  To your point, it feels like the Luka isos are not intentional but more of a side effect of this new off ball action not being very crisp early on (plus Luka can score on anyone in the league so it's easy for him to decide to just bail us out time and time again).

[DanSchwartzgan]

This year it has felt like the balance swung heavy towards Luka just matchup hunting but this video gives me a lot of hope in the sense that it's less Luka matchup hunting to score and more Luka finding his best post up matchup to initiate this new offense.  I always felt it was just Luka getting to a spot and 4 guys then clustered on the weakside but now I realize it's more about using a Luka post up to put a lot of pressure on the defense AND our other four players running off the ball action to put additional things the defense needs to account for while also putting people in places for Luka to find them, which is honestly super clever. 

Note that this is one of the ways a non-shooting big can contribute.  There are plenty of examples in the video where the off-ball action includes a non-shooting big setting up shooters.  There is a prevalent narrative that says Luka/Wood has to have floor spacers around them in order for the PnR to work.  As the video illustrates, NBA offenses are much more dynamic than the idea that the only way to use a non-shooting big is as the pick setter up top or standing stationary in the dunkers spot.

Something else to note.  We’ve seen both Powell and Wood have nice success on short roll passes when Luka is doubled.  Lately they’ve been bringing Green up to set the pick with Wood in the corner even though he was the only big on the floor at the time.  Wood got a nice corner 3 out of the action against Denver Friday.  I hope we see more of this going forward.  Green should excel at this and the more things we can get him doing well, the more dynamic the offense can become.  DFS and Bullock don’t have the handles to run that action.  THJ probably can, but the word pass is not in his vocabulary.

[SleepingHero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8FUAMRso6A&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball

[KillerLeft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8FUAMRso6A&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball

"But, with less speed on the floor, errors compound."

Thanks for posting this - good stuff!

[F Gump]

This is an interesting article on the dynamics of roster-building in relation to big men, mostly focused on what CLE is doing. But it also includes mentions of other teams who are doing it differently than the small ball trend.

This may be applicable to the Mavs as a template - or it may be applicable as something to consider that you might have to deal with.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3514...n-position

[DanSchwartzgan]

This is an interesting article on the dynamics of roster-building in relation to big men, mostly focused on what CLE is doing. But it also includes mentions of other teams who are doing it differently than the small ball trend.

This may be applicable to the Mavs as a template - or it may be applicable as something to consider that you might have to deal with.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3514...n-position

Thanks for posting this.  Interesting that the Cav’s can be 7th in O-Rating league-wide with two bigs that don’t hit 3’s.  It helps that Garland, Mitchell and Love are killing it from 3 right now.

I think this points out the need for flexibility if you don’t have a dominant situation up front (and we certainly don’t).  Need to cover one kind of team one night and something completely different the next.  It is so interesting to try to figure out what kind of addition would help this team the most.  Some think that third creator, but Luka and SD are pretty darn good as a top two.  Some think wings, but there is a lot of potential in DFS/Green and with THJ and Bullock on the roster, the opportunity for minutes is very limited.  To me, I’d probably pay up for a starting level big.  The combo of Powell/Wood/Maxi with some minutes from DFS at the four, seems like the bigger hole.

[michaeltex]

Thanks for posting this.  Interesting that the Cav’s can be 7th in O-Rating league-wide with two bigs that don’t hit 3’s.  It helps that Garland, Mitchell and Love are killing it from 3 right now.

I think this points out the need for flexibility if you don’t have a dominant situation up front (and we certainly don’t).  Need to cover one kind of team one night and something completely different the next.  It is so interesting to try to figure out what kind of addition would help this team the most.  Some think that third creator, but Luka and SD are pretty darn good as a top two.  Some think wings, but there is a lot of potential in DFS/Green and with THJ and Bullock on the roster, the opportunity for minutes is very limited.  To me, I’d probably pay up for a starting level big.  The combo of Powell/Wood/Maxi with some minutes from DFS at the four, seems like the bigger hole.

The Mav's current situation feels a little like pre-2011 in that there seems to be a constant effort to plug the hole in the middle. They finally landed Haywood and Chandler, although the latter was viewed as risky due to previous injury history. Ty got a lot of the credit for firming up the defense and on court leadership, both of which were justified. Hay was a more than suitable backup, even though he signed understanding he'd be the starter, and held the fort when Ty wasn't having a good night due to fouls or matchup problems. Of course, having 7'+ Dirk around helped as well.

Then Cuban had to prove he was the smartest guy in the room and basically let a championship team disperse rather than re-signing a bunch of key players.

Anyway, in the interest of this thread's theme, I offer a Luka-centric vid on how you don't have to be a Ferrari to win in the NBA. My apologies if it's been shown elsewhere on the site.

[SleepingHero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJKvsS1xlmk&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball

some more great stuff from ben taylor.

[SkenfromLMF]

The biggest issue I perceived in the 4th and OT against Detroit was the short roll against the double teams. Maxi is making an effort to drive the ball but he is just not comfortable enough to be efficient. He makes some nice passes, and other times he assists the vendors who get to sale extra drinks to fans in the lower bowl. Wood is the better player at collecting the pass from Luka and attacking the rim. The problem is that when it is Wood in the middle there are not shooters currently capable of hitting the shots a Wood-Luka center of gravity creates.

I love the idea of DFS being the screener, but bringing his man as the double team trap is often times inviting an athletic and long wing to Luka which complicates his ability to pass out of the double team.

Figuring out the counter to forcing the ball out of Lukas hands is paramount to a successful season. THJ should be a big part of the answer and it appears he and Bullock are contributing to the problem!

[KillerLeft]

The biggest issue I perceived in the 4th and OT against Detroit was the short roll against the double teams. Maxi is making an effort to drive the ball but he is just not comfortable enough to be efficient. He makes some nice passes, and other times he assists the vendors who get to sale extra drinks to fans in the lower bowl. Wood is the better player at collecting the pass from Luka and attacking the rim. The problem is that when it is Wood in the middle there are not shooters currently capable of hitting the shots a Wood-Luka center of gravity creates.

I love the idea of DFS being the screener, but bringing his man as the double team trap is often times inviting an athletic and long wing to Luka which complicates his ability to pass out of the double team.

Figuring out the counter to forcing the ball out of Lukas hands is paramount to a successful season. THJ should be a big part of the answer and it appears he and Bullock are contributing to the problem!

There's no question in my mind that Wood, much more so than Porzingis, offers Kidd/Luka the potential to make that short roll a "bread and butter" element of the team's offensive approach. Unlike some, I have no trouble imagining how scary it might be for them to trust him right away, but on the the other hand, when it has worked it has looked GOOD. 

I think they need to go for it, personally.

[SkenfromLMF]

There's no question in my mind that Wood, much more so than Porzingis, offers Kidd/Luka the potential to make that short roll a "bread and butter" element of the team's offensive approach. Unlike some, I have no trouble imagining how scary it might be for them to trust him right away, but on the the other hand, when it has worked it has looked GOOD. 

I think they need to go for it, personally.

I think the question we do not answer is whether Wood can pass out of the high post effectively. In theory he is better than Maxi and there is No doubt he is the best option for flooring and attacking the basket, but it will not be any more effective to have Wood forcing shots against teams who rotate to take away that drive. I would hope the goal is to FORCE a big to try and be the trap/double on Luka AND get DFS in the middle, or maybe run a switch where we can get either player at a given time.  The answer might be to set up a Wood/DFS screen that forces the 1st switch away from the ball.  The most difficult part of early action is timing because it means Luka can't over penetrate bringing the ball up and spacing with the off-ball action can get compromised.

[KillerLeft]

Luka is so special.

https://youtu.be/_j-jFWWXXyM

[SleepingHero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF2MnVVNh0M&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball


I wish the Mavs ran more of a motion offense, but I guess why risk having DFS make a read when you have Luka freaking Doncic on your team.

[SleepingHero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LYHwD_0-YQ


Some actual compliments about the Mavs offense in here. Kinda weird.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

https://twitter.com/lukabassin/status/16...40800?s=46

Good example of Luka going through the reads of all the off ball action while he’s posting up. This action looks pretty clean and I think your last resort of Luka simply backing someone down is a pretty great last resort. Hopefully as this offball action continues to get smoother it will feel less and less like Luka doing everything.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...23299?s=46

I also noted this in the game thread. Normally this action is Hardaway with the initial flare and bullock in the weak side corner but putting Hardy in the flare action and Hardaway in the corner makes the defense work much harder. This play happened after they ran the same set where Luka found Hardy and he attacked downhill.