ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[KillerLeft]

He looked amazing for the Mavs but I’m not as confident in him as @KillerLeft.  TBD if the fit here is so amazing or if it was a post trade I have a chip on my shoulder over performance.

I have a ton of confidence in him as a 6th man, whose job is to get to the rim with the kind of spacing the Mavs' big shooters can provide. 

I agree there's concern over his catch and shoot game, and I don't expect him to look nearly as good playing with McGee out there. Plus, he's injury prone, obviously.

[mvossman]

The concerns about Dinwiddie are also about his shot.  He’s a career 32% from three.  He shot 40% for the Mavs last year.

He looked amazing for the Mavs but I’m not as confident in him as @"KillerLeft".  TBD if the fit here is so amazing or if it was a post trade I have a chip on my shoulder over performance.

Yes, the 40% is likely a combination of small sample noise and the fact that he was shooting more catch and shoot (wide) open threes with the Mavs than he generally does.  If I had to guess, I would put him around 36%, which is good enough for spacing, but not as impactful as last season.

As Dan mentioned, I think he will be on the court with Luka less than Timmy, who is a better fit when McGee is on the floor anyways.  They should probably be doing Luka/Timmy backcourt, which I am guessing would get roughly the same grade due to Luka.

If they managed to trade for Conley, he would probably start and I am guessing the Luka/Conley backcourt would be rated higher than any of the other combinations.  Conley is very good on or off the ball and a better defender than the rest of them.

[Hypermav]

I have a fairly clear bottom five currently in Powell, Bertans, Pinson, Hardy and Frank.  Here is how I see a typical game against a good team when everyone is healthy:

McGee 18       Wood 30                   Powell

DFS 24           Maxi 24                     Bertans

Bullock 28       DFS 8/Green 12         Pinson

Dinwiddie 12   THJ 28/Green 8          Hardy

Luka 32           Dinwiddie 16              Frank

So are Bog, Conley or Clarkson an upgrade to the top five (factoring in cost), if we want the 3nD guys together? If not, lets not use any assets right now. 

If we are only talking about those limited minutes, Frank or Green should be fine in that role. 

I am still a Bertans fan and want to see him get minutes as well.  

Dorsey potential time?  I think I talked myself out of a move and I don't have to mess with Ainge.

[Mapka]

So are Bog, Conley or Clarkson an upgrade to the top five (factoring in cost), if we want the 3nD guys together? If not, lets not use any assets right now. 

If we are only talking about those limited minutes, Frank or Green should be fine in that role. 

I am still a Bertans fan and want to see him get minutes as well.  

Dorsey potential time?  I think I talked myself out of a move and I don't have to mess with Ainge.

If he takes Bertans and Frank for Conley I'm in.

[Scott41theMavs]

If he takes Bertans and Frank for Conley I'm in.

LOL how magnanimous of you.

[mvossman]

So are Bog, Conley or Clarkson an upgrade to the top five (factoring in cost), if we want the 3nD guys together? If not, lets not use any assets right now. 

If we are only talking about those limited minutes, Frank or Green should be fine in that role. 

I am still a Bertans fan and want to see him get minutes as well.  

Dorsey potential time?  I think I talked myself out of a move and I don't have to mess with Ainge.

I think all three of them would be some level of upgrade and would push out either Bullock or Dinwiddie from the starting lineup.  I think any one of them would be worth giving up any combination of Timmy, Bertans, Powell, Green, Frank, seconds.

I think Frank and Green are fine in their current role as long as everyone is healthy.  When Luka or Din miss a game, one of them (or somebody else) is going to likely be in over their head unless we get a legit 3rd playmaker.

[F Gump]

I think that DS minutes distribution is fairly close.

If someone like Dragic was here, I'd align the minutes very differently, and revolve around the 3 creators --- but with this roster as is, certainly gotta maximize for what's here rather than wish for something else.

IMO Bertans gets more minutes (regularly) than 0 ... with McGee and Wood both getting less than noted (being pegged at 18 and 30 respectively). Maybe Maxi gets a few less also, as they load manage with an eye to the playoffs.

In general, other than when someone is sitting out a game for injury or load management, I agree Hardy, Dorsey, Pinson, and Frank are in line for 0 -- unless they can outplay THJ or Green, ie I think that's where/how they might be able to get minutes. Like those 4, I think Powell too only plays when someone (in his case, a C or PF) is sidelined.

I think the only way Conley or Clarkson makes trade sense would be if THJ is outgoing, because that's where the "Conley/Clarkson" minutes are going right now. But if I'm the Mavs, I likely wait to see what I'm getting from THJ and Green (and perhaps those behind them) before chasing a trade where I need to revise the minutes.

I wonder if the Mavs are going to treat the first 2/3 of the season like baseball teams do -- which, effectively, was how they did it last year -- which would be to go from now to TDL to figure out what revisions they need, then try to address them/swap out at TDL (and from buyout players) to add what's missing for the stretch run and playoffs.

[mvossman]

I think that DS minutes distribution is fairly close.

If someone like Dragic was here, I'd align the minutes very differently, and revolve around the 3 creators --- but with this roster as is, certainly gotta maximize for what's here rather than wish for something else.

IMO Bertans gets more minutes (regularly) than 0 ... with McGee and Wood both getting less than noted (being pegged at 18 and 30 respectively). Maybe Maxi gets a few less also, as they load manage with an eye to the playoffs.

In general, other than when someone is sitting out a game for injury or load management, I agree Hardy, Dorsey, Pinson, and Frank are in line for 0 -- unless they can outplay THJ or Green, ie I think that's where/how they might be able to get minutes. Like those 4, I think Powell too only plays when someone (in his case, a C or PF) is sidelined.

I think the only way Conley or Clarkson makes trade sense would be if THJ is outgoing, because that's where the "Conley/Clarkson" minutes are going right now. But if I'm the Mavs, I likely wait to see what I'm getting from THJ and Green (and perhaps those behind them) before chasing a trade where I need to revise the minutes.

I wonder if the Mavs are going to treat the first 2/3 of the season like baseball teams do -- which, effectively, was how they did it last year -- which would be to go from now to TDL to figure out what revisions they need, then try to address them/swap out at TDL (and from buyout players) to add what's missing for the stretch run and playoffs.

It does seem like that's the plan.  Powell will be more valuable as an expiring at the TDL, Timmy will probably be more valuable than he is right now and Green might generate some trade value.  They should also have a good idea in what they have with Wood by then.  I would still pull the trigger if we can get one of those guys at a reasonable price (like the proposal Terry had in the other thread), but its probably good if this is our default position so we are less likely to get fleeced by Ainge again.

[ItsGoTime]

I like Dinwiddie in a 5 out offense where he has more room to get to the rim.  When McGee is out there I would rather have Bullock than Dinwiddie because the offense is going to be centered around Luka/McGee P&R and I like his spacing and defense.  A McGee/Wood/Dorian/Bullock/Luka lineup would have Luka running P&R with 3 guys who shoot over 38% from 3.  Wood will add a little diversity on offense, and we have 3 high level defenders to cover for Luka and Wood.

If Wood actually becomes a true anchor, then you move McGee to the bench and run 5 out from the beginning, but I think that is unlikely.

So, this pretty much says what I said with the exception of ignoring what I said about Wood showing the ability to spell Luka on the court. If Wood starts and can’t spell Luka, that sounds like a pretty simple defensive strategy to shut down our offense. This is why I said what I said. If he isn’t good enough to do that SD has to start, IMO. I like Bullock’s D, but it can’t come at such a large cost. Especially since the caveat is that Wood has shown to be a good switchable defender.


It’s taken me a while to respond cause the post looked slightly off from what I said but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I would for sure rather have SD come off the bench, even if there was a lesser player/ball handler starting in front of him. I think the best there is to do that currently on the roster is Frank (after his Eurobasket success, maybe Dorsey?). However, the actual best option is on a few other teams’ rosters currently.

[Jason Terry]

Enjoyed reading this page of thoughts. Seems like we have a good plan. We can be open to trades now. But also wait for the right deal whereas other teams are more desperate. Until the TDL we have an opportunity to showcase our guys and increase their value. Plus we get a good look at Wood before we make our move. If nothing is out there that makes us better or if we like our team and overachieve again we can easily bring back everyone(so long as we don’t add to  future cap). 

The only thing that’s missing is Kemba. I’d rather wait for someone like that than adding Schroeder

We really could use Goran Dragic. Makes me wonder why he really said no. It’s puzzling when he would be perfect for the 15th spot

[Chicagojk]

Enjoyed reading this page of thoughts. Seems like we have a good plan. We can be open to trades now. But also wait for the right deal whereas other teams are more desperate. Until the TDL we have an opportunity to showcase our guys and increase their value. Plus we get a good look at Wood before we make our move. If nothing is out there that makes us better or if we like our team and overachieve again we can easily bring back everyone(so long as we don’t add to  future cap). 

The only thing that’s missing is Kemba. I’d rather wait for someone like that than adding Schroeder

We really could use Goran Dragic. Makes me wonder why he really said no. It’s puzzling when he would be perfect for the 15th spot

My thoughts on the 15th man changes almost daily.   The minutes crunch is real and I also hope to have minutes for Green as this is a big year for him.  On the other hand, a 2 week absence for Dinwiddie or Luka (lord help us) has a chance to really put us behind the 8 ball where we are playing catch up all year long with the roster currently as is.   If Dinnwiddie missed games, it even put greater weight on Luka's shoulders...and that may not be a great idea in November/December of the season.  In addition, with the games Luka is playing in the European championship it may be a good idea to gently ease him into the season the first few weeks of the year.   

I am not sure where Shroeder will be pick.  I read PHX has the MLE still.  That could be a good spot considering Chris Paul's age and their need for good backup pg minutes.  The Lakers could be interesting as well if they moved off Westbrook.   The Lakers could at least have the carrot of cap room next year that might give Schroeder some incentive.

[DanSchwartzgan]

McGee 18       Wood 30                   Powell

DFS 24           Maxi 24                     Bertans

Bullock 28       DFS 8/Green 12         Pinson

Dinwiddie 12   THJ 28/Green 8          Hardy

Luka 32           Dinwiddie 16              Frank

I was thinking about this some more and came up with (what I thought was) an interesting question.  If Luka could play both shirts and skins at the same time, which team would you take?

Luka/SD/Bullock/DFS/McGee

Luka/THJ/Green/Maxi/Wood

I’m not sure it is obvious either way, which either bodes well for the bench or poorly for the starters (or both).

[ballsrchr]

We really could use Goran Dragic. Makes me wonder why he really said no. It’s puzzling when he would be perfect for the 15th spot

I read on Twitter, or on one of the links somebody put up on this forum, that GD, "...didn't like the package put forth by the Mavericks..." and the Mavericks wouldn't move.  So...Dragic went to the...Bulls, I think.

I wonder if Luka will ever put his foot down for something...

[Hypermav]

I was thinking about this some more and came up with (what I thought was) an interesting question.  If Luka could play both shirts and skins at the same time, which team would you take?

Luka/SD/Bullock/DFS/McGee

Luka/THJ/Green/Maxi/Wood

I’m not sure it is obvious either way, which either bodes well for the bench or poorly for the starters (or both).

Shirt and Skin Luka's would fight.  Get tossed for complaining.  Luka always needs to be wearing a shirt.

A more serious answer would be that is a good question.  I would lean toward the Wood/Maxi team overall.  They would both be good.

[Chicagojk]

I read on Twitter, or on one of the links somebody put up on this forum, that GD, "...didn't like the package put forth by the Mavericks..." and the Mavericks wouldn't move.  So...Dragic went to the...Bulls, I think.

I wonder if Luka will ever put his foot down for something...

Who knows what the real story is and there are probably different versions by different people.  Here is what Tim Cato wrote in his latest Q&A.

*****************
This is an impossible question to answer because it can vary based on the decisions being made. Cuban remains involved in every decision, but Nico Harrison has brought top-down structure to a front office that didn’t exist in the past. Jason Kidd has significant influence, and it’s no surprise that the roster resembles the Lakers’ title team — in the additions of Javale McGee and assistant coach Quinton Crawford — more than it did last season. I also heard that the team’s disinterest in Goran Dragic this summer was centered on Kidd, which was recently discussed on an ESPN podcast. Michael Finley has a significant voice in the room, as well.

There are certainly those within the Mavericks’ organization who felt like the Jalen Brunson situation was mishandled. I don’t think that’s breaking any news; we all saw how it played out. But I’m comfortable saying that the front office seems more structured and unified in its belief about building this team for the future. Whether that means they can successful achieve that is, well, that’s another question.

[mvossman]

I was thinking about this some more and came up with (what I thought was) an interesting question.  If Luka could play both shirts and skins at the same time, which team would you take?

Luka/SD/Bullock/DFS/McGee

Luka/THJ/Green/Maxi/Wood

I’m not sure it is obvious either way, which either bodes well for the bench or poorly for the starters (or both).

I would say they are similar and the answer your second question is both.  We can't put together a contending starting/finishing lineup right now.

I have probably posted something similar before, but I would swap SD and THJ and have Dorian be both shirts/skins as well.

Luka/THJ/Bullock/DFS/McGee

Luka/SD/Dorian/Wood/Maxi

I think the second lineup would be best and our finishing lineup, but that first lineup should be good for 15 to 20 minutes a game.  The Luka and Dorian breathers would likely come out of that second unit.

[Kammrath]

This is an impossible question to answer because it can vary based on the decisions being made. Cuban remains involved in every decision, but Nico Harrison has brought top-down structure to a front office that didn’t exist in the past. Jason Kidd has significant influence, and it’s no surprise that the roster resembles the Lakers’ title team — in the additions of Javale McGee and assistant coach Quinton Crawford — more than it did last season. I also heard that the team’s disinterest in Goran Dragic this summer was centered on Kidd, which was recently discussed on an ESPN podcast. Michael Finley has a significant voice in the room, as well.

There are certainly those within the Mavericks’ organization who felt like the Jalen Brunson situation was mishandled. I don’t think that’s breaking any news; we all saw how it played out. But I’m comfortable saying that the front office seems more structured and unified in its belief about building this team for the future. Whether that means they can successful achieve that is, well, that’s another question.

This is fantastic. Thanks for this.

[F Gump]

Cuban remains involved in every decision ....

We have been getting this sense of things, and it's now confirmed in print. Very unfortunate that the Mavs ceiling is still "Cuban's personal level of expertise (or lack of same)." I had hoped that Nico's statements and apparent belief that he was being hired to be the decision-maker on GM things was going to be true, but alas.

[ItsGoTime]

In all honesty, the setup doesn’t sound much different from when Donnie was here. Of course underlings are playing nice right now until things have been tested. Finley has a stronger voice, Kidd has a voice. At some point someone is going to disagree with Nico and THAT will be the test of Nico’s leadership snd Cuban’s allowance for it. If Cuban allows Finley to directly influence a decision, that undermines Nico’s authority. Give that a few years and it will undoubtedly turn out the same with the team suffering. Please Silver, retroactively ban Mark for at least Luka’s contract length!

[chaparral]

In all honesty, the setup doesn’t sound much different from when Donnie was here. Of course underlings are playing nice right now until things have been tested. Finley has a stronger voice, Kidd has a voice. At some point someone is going to disagree with Nico and THAT will be the test of Nico’s leadership snd Cuban’s allowance for it. If Cuban allows Finley to directly influence a decision, that undermines Nico’s authority. Give that a few years and it will undoubtedly turn out the same with the team suffering. Please Silver, retroactively ban Mark for at least Luka’s contract length!

Looks like we are SOL when it comes to Cuban ever being band, per Silvers comments on the Suns owner.

Silver said so many of the quiet parts out loud: That it takes "gotcha!" audio to make a difference, that the owners are above the rules the rest of us abide by, and that you can cover up YEARS of horrific behavior as long as you check off diversity hires and charitable donations