TRADE: Christian Wood (1yr/$14.3M) to DAL | #26+SB+Boban+Chriss+TB to HOU

[dynamicalVoid]

The question remains:

1) Are the Mavs in a position to develop a player with awful offensive feel for the game?

2) How long do you give said player and what are the parameters for deciding when its ok to keep developing said player?

Is it 3ball?  Ability to cash a blow-by?  

Define it?

I personally think the points Green gives up on potential blow-bys is more significant than his potential 3ball will ever provide.  Meaning an average finisher at the rim and 3ball shooter is probably better than a bad finisher at the rim and average at 3ball.

[Jommybone]

Speaking of Christian Wood, the subject of this thread . . . .

It really feels like he finishes the trifecta that took this team from really struggling offensively to very capable. Dinwiddie/Bertans/Wood moves give me all kinds of confidence on that side of the ball.

[dynamicalVoid]

Speaking of Christian Wood, the subject of this thread . . . .

It really feels like he finishes the trifecta that took this team from really struggling offensively to very capable. Dinwiddie/Bertans/Wood moves give me all kinds of confidence on that side of the ball.

And I agree with you.

I dont think you can contain GSW easily.  Better offense wins that matchup when you have Luka being a questionable defensive player in playoffs.

[Branduil]

And I agree with you.

I dont think you can contain GSW easily.  Better offense wins that matchup when you have Luka being a questionable defensive player in playoffs.

A huge part of our defensive failures in that series was getting the initial stop and then Looney trampling over Powell or Maxi and slamming home the putback. Wood will help the rebounding aspect at least.

[dirkfansince1998]

A huge part of our defensive failures in that series was getting the initial stop and then Looney trampling over Powell or Maxi and slamming home the putback. Wood will help the rebounding aspect at least.

Not sure if Wood is an impact rebounder. Team rebounding numbers with him on the floor in the last couple of seasons aren´t painting a clear picture. Watching him I see more of a quick leaper that chases rebounds. Not the kind of guy that is known for physical boxouts.

[SleepingHero]

I don't get why so many people seem so deadset on trading Green. He has more upside left than just about anyone on the roster but he probably doesn't have that much trade value at the moment because he wasn't ready for his first real playoff minutes. 

He went from 45.2% from the field and 16% from deep in his first season to 50.8% from the field and 35.9% from deep this last season. So he soiled the bed in the playoffs, so did Brunson the year before. He's got a lot more offensive upside than Frank the Clank, who has yet to shoot 40% from the field after 5 seasons. If you're patient Green might actually turn into one of those coveted two way guys

Green is 21. DFS shot 37.2% from the field and 29.3% from deep when he was 23, but he made slight improvements in each and every season after that. I'm willing to be patient with Green because he showed offseason improvement which shows his future trajectory is heading the right way

I don't believe I'm deadset on trading Green but rather, and I'm going to borrow from one of Dan's favorite phrases, you have to give something to get something.

I like Green A LOT. I think his impact is vastly underrated by people who don't peruse this board frequently. We all see his positives, some more believers than others. 

BUT, you have to ask yourself, does Green fit the timeline for a team that wants to win it all next year? If not, how many years will it take him to be that guy based on what we've seen so far? Does he ever get there? Of course he's improved vastly in his first 2 years, but I also recognize that Green basically started as low as one can from a career standpoint, being largely non-existent. He's now a fringe role player. 

These aren't guys that we should prioritize that much. Improvement is rarely linear in the NBA. There's a chance where Green comes out next season and plays awful for 35 games and then all of a sudden everything clicks and he's a 15ppg guy nightly with great defense. There's a chance he'll never crack 1000 points in the NBA. It's all a risk. 
One of Derek Harper's favorite saying's is "This is a 'what have you done for me lately' league." And it's obvious Green had some moments, but I'd trade him 100 times out of 100 if he's needed to complete a deal for a playoff ready wing and I don't/shouldn't think that's a controversial opinion.

[SleepingHero]

Not sure if Wood is an impact rebounder. Team rebounding numbers with him on the floor in the last couple of seasons aren´t painting a clear picture. Watching him I see more of a quick leaper that chases rebounds. Not the kind of guy that is known for physical boxouts.

I'd go so far as to say Wood isn't an impact rebounder. I don't think he's going to fix that side of the court. I don't really think the Mavs had an issue with rebounding though. Yes offensive rebounds were a killer against GSW, but I don't think they were a primary reason why the team lost.

I think FGump put it well and said the team ran out of gas. Having an elite offensive scorer can help that issue. 

But to your point, that's why I'm still interested in a bully-ball type center that can play spot minutes. Powell isn't that. I don't know if there is a guy on the market that can do that and be in budget. Maybe Dwight Howard but cow did bring up (correctly imo) how he's looked like a shell of his former self this last season.

[Branduil]

Not sure if Wood is an impact rebounder. Team rebounding numbers with him on the floor in the last couple of seasons aren´t painting a clear picture. Watching him I see more of a quick leaper that chases rebounds. Not the kind of guy that is known for physical boxouts.

I remember seeing another stat which did point to him being an impact rebounder but unfortunately can't remember where it was now.

[dynamicalVoid]

The question remains:

1) Are the Mavs in a position to develop a player with awful offensive feel for the game?

2) How long do you give said player and what are the parameters for deciding when its ok to keep developing said player?

Is it 3ball?  Ability to cash a blow-by?  

Define it?

I personally think the points Green gives up on potential blow-bys is more significant than his potential 3ball will ever provide.  Meaning an average finisher at the rim and 3ball shooter is probably better than a bad finisher at the rim and average at 3ball.

Is the easy answer: scheme?

Still not seeing answers on a tactical answer revolving around the Green issue.

[Winter]

I don't know how many players start on Green's trajectory and flame out, but there are clearly plenty of players who pan out (including the majority of our team).  

My point is this. What makes you think Josh Green gets to "average" NBA player? What has the coaching staff done to make you think that? His stats went up a bit because he got more minutes during the season. He got more minutes because Kidd put some effort into seeing what he had - which I agree with. But this coaching staff couldn't play him in the playoffs. He's a "defensive specialist" that's still learning the game, and I use "defensive specialist" kindly. Fans appear to eyeball him into being a rotation player, but the coaching staff hasn't given any indication that's actually the case.

This just isn't the team for him in my opinion. The Mavs are much better with a seasoned veteran who is a tested defensive specialist - not one 3-4 years away at best. We talk about boosting our talent level, but we turn around and keep paying him when we need better rotation players? We need to build this team with a serviceable player that you're not afraid to put in there in a playoff game. That's where the Mavs are now. They are likely one of the top 6-7 teams in the NBA. Having wins during the season is meaningful.

He's had two seasons under his belt, and the Mavs just competed for the Western Conference championship. If any team wants him in a decent trade for a veteran, we are supposed to turn them down?

[Jason Terry]

My point is this. What makes you think Josh Green gets to "average" NBA player? What has he done to make you think that? His stats went up a bit because he got more minutes during the season. He got more minutes because Kidd put some effort into seeing what he had - which I agree with. But this coaching staff couldn't play him in the playoffs. He's a "defensive specialist" that's still learning the game, and I use "defensive specialist" kindly. Fans appear to eyeball him into being a rotation player, but the coaching staff hasn't given any indication that's actually the case.

This just isn't the team for him. The Mavs are much better with a seasoned veteran who is a tested defensive specialist - not one 3-4 years away at best. We talk about boosting our talent level, but we turn around and keep paying him when we need better rotation players? Why would we keep him if we can use him to acquire a better player? We need to build this team with a serviceable player that you're not afraid to put in there in a playoff game. That's where the Mavs are now. They are likely one of the top 6-7 teams in the NBA. Having wins during the season is meaningful.

He's has two seasons under his belt, and the Mavs just competed for the Western Conference championship. If any team wants him in a decent trade for a veteran, we are supposed to turn them down?

I’m all about trading Green if that’s what it takes to improve the team. Especially now that pick 26 is gone. I think a major key in this thing is not trading any future assets(FRPs) yet still building a contender for next year. Our future picks need to be clean for the perfect all-in trade whenever that time comes. 

Green plus one of our large contracts for something useful would be an ideal finishing move for this version of the Mavs. It’s something we can be patient on though. We can afford to wait until in season or TDL to get the best deal. Our guys (Green,THJ, Bertans) value should increase as the season goes on anyways. 

The argument for keeping Green is mostly about value on a roster with 9 about to be 10 substantial deals. He’s a young unproven player so there’s a chance to lock up a good future player at a cheap rate. On the court he provides energy and defensive effort which is needed. 

The battles for minutes will come down to Hardaway vs Bertans (similar skills and contract, one needs to go)…….Green vs Frank (want to keep both, but which will have more impact?)……….Wood vs. Powell (Wood plays well is Powell out? Wood lacks effort/fit is Wood out?)…….We seem to know what we’re getting from Luka/JB/SD/RB/DFS/Maxi core

[Winter]

Green plus one of our large contracts for something useful would be an ideal finishing move for this version of the Mavs. It’s something we can be patient on though. We can afford to wait until in season or TDL to get the best deal. Our guys (Green,THJ, Bertans) value should increase as the season goes on anyways. 

Sure. I have no problem with that at all.

As you said, it's all about improving a team - a playoff team.

[mvossman]

My point is this. What makes you think Josh Green gets to "average" NBA player? What has the coaching staff done to make you think that? His stats went up a bit because he got more minutes during the season. He got more minutes because Kidd put some effort into seeing what he had - which I agree with. But this coaching staff couldn't play him in the playoffs. He's a "defensive specialist" that's still learning the game, and I use "defensive specialist" kindly. Fans appear to eyeball him into being a rotation player, but the coaching staff hasn't given any indication that's actually the case.

This just isn't the team for him in my opinion. The Mavs are much better with a seasoned veteran who is a tested defensive specialist - not one 3-4 years away at best. We talk about boosting our talent level, but we turn around and keep paying him when we need better rotation players? We need to build this team with a serviceable player that you're not afraid to put in there in a playoff game. That's where the Mavs are now. They are likely one of the top 6-7 teams in the NBA. Having wins during the season is meaningful.

He's had two seasons under his belt, and the Mavs just competed for the Western Conference championship. If any team wants him in a decent trade for a veteran, we are supposed to turn them down?

Its very simple.  Young inexperience guys in the NBA don't generally play very well, but many get better each season.  The fact that he was significantly better in his second year (and not just in minutes, across the board better) than he was in his first is very encouraging.  If he makes the same jump next season he will already be a rotational player.

In the past I showed that Greens production and minutes in his second year was about average for the players on our team (at a younger age than just about all of them).  If you are super discouraged with his playoff performance, here are some comparisons:

Dinwiddie got 2 minutes a game in his second year in the playoffs
Timmy got 10 minutes a game in his third year in the playoffs
Bullock got 2 minutes a game in his first year in the playoffs
Bullock got 11 minutes a game in his third year in the playoffs

Greens 8 (ineffective) minutes in the playoffs in his second year seems right on pace.  

I don't know what the odds that Green continues improvement and becomes a valuable rotational piece, but that kind of progression happens all the time in the NBA and its not hard to see how he gets there.  His defense is already better than average and he simply needs to be less timid pulling the trigger on offense.

If he is a needed piece to land a top 8 player then I can definitely see the argument to send him out, but otherwise I think its worth the gamble to hold onto a potentially young cost controlled asset.

[Winter]

Young inexperience guys in the NBA don't generally play very well, but many get better each season.

I actually don't agree with "many get better each season." I think most players who come to play in the NBA will never be good enough to ever break into a team's rotation. Josh Green gets extra time because of where he was drafted, but most players drafted (or signed after the draft) simply don't last in the NBA. They get one or two contracts, and then they are forced to play elsewhere or are out altogether. A much smaller proportion stick. 

This is not worth much discussion as both of us will likely know all we need to know about Josh Green by the end of this season - whether he is with this team or not.

[mvossman]

I actually don't agree with "many get better each season." I think most players who come to play in the NBA will never be good enough to ever break into a team's rotation. Josh Green gets extra time because of where he was drafted, but most players drafted (or signed after the draft) simply don't last in the NBA. They get one or two contracts, and then they are forced to play elsewhere or are out altogether. A much smaller proportion stick. 

This is not worth much discussion as both of us will likely know all we need to know about Josh Green by the end of this season - whether he is with this team or not.

Both can be right.  Probably more than half the current NBA players went through a progression similar to green, so "many" is an accurate statement.  You can also say most non lottery draft picks don't pan out.  There is still plenty of risk he does not pan out, but if we give up on every draft pick that is not an established rotational player after 2 years we are giving ourselves almost no chance to improve through the draft.

[nash_funk]

I'd go so far as to say Wood isn't an impact rebounder. I don't think he's going to fix that side of the court. I don't really think the Mavs had an issue with rebounding though. Yes offensive rebounds were a killer against GSW, but I don't think they were a primary reason why the team lost.

I think FGump put it well and said the team ran out of gas. Having an elite offensive scorer can help that issue. 

But to your point, that's why I'm still interested in a bully-ball type center that can play spot minutes. Powell isn't that. I don't know if there is a guy on the market that can do that and be in budget. Maybe Dwight Howard but cow did bring up (correctly imo) how he's looked like a shell of his former self this last season.

Wood has a 31.7 round rating last year.  That puts him among the elite and at least 6 above any of our bigs last year.

[Kammrath]

As I have rekindled my love affair with Christian Wood (I REALLY wanted him before HOU signed him), I am fully on "The Wood Wagon." 

I anticipate him being the starting center for the Mavs for the next four years. Of course he may not work out in DAL, but I am very hopeful and confident that he will. And I think we will look back at this trade in awe of how one sided it was.

[mvossman]

As I have rekindled my love affair with Christian Wood (I REALLY wanted him before HOU signed him), I am fully on "The Wood Wagon." 

I anticipate him being the starting center for the Mavs for the next four years. Of course he may not work out in DAL, but I am very hopeful and confident that he will. And I think we will look back at this trade in awe of how one sided it was.

I hope you are right.  I have a little worry that he is going to ball out in a contract year (like he did in Detroit), get paid, and then start exhibiting some of his red flags.  I was worried about Dinwiddie too, so hopefully this is just as unfounded (although I think the flags are more numerous in this case).

[MrGoat]

I don't believe I'm deadset on trading Green but rather, and I'm going to borrow from one of Dan's favorite phrases, you have to give something to get something.

I like Green A LOT. I think his impact is vastly underrated by people who don't peruse this board frequently. We all see his positives, some more believers than others. 

BUT, you have to ask yourself, does Green fit the timeline for a team that wants to win it all next year? If not, how many years will it take him to be that guy based on what we've seen so far? Does he ever get there? Of course he's improved vastly in his first 2 years, but I also recognize that Green basically started as low as one can from a career standpoint, being largely non-existent. He's now a fringe role player. 

These aren't guys that we should prioritize that much. Improvement is rarely linear in the NBA. There's a chance where Green comes out next season and plays awful for 35 games and then all of a sudden everything clicks and he's a 15ppg guy nightly with great defense. There's a chance he'll never crack 1000 points in the NBA. It's all a risk. 
One of Derek Harper's favorite saying's is "This is a 'what have you done for me lately' league." And it's obvious Green had some moments, but I'd trade him 100 times out of 100 if he's needed to complete a deal for a playoff ready wing and I don't/shouldn't think that's a controversial opinion.

Well for one I don't think Green has very much trade value, he's not a blue chip draft pick and he doesn't particularly stand out, there are plenty of young guys around that fit that description, but not plenty that already have two years of experience in our system. The 3 million he's owed next season is the last guaranteed money on his contract because the last year is a team option and he's not even one of our top 10 most highly paid players. 

Let's get back to the guy this thread is about. Wood is an expiring right now which leaves us in a flexible position, for now. If Wood works out he's going to be owed a big contract, though, and thanks to drawing Utah in the first round Brunson's contract is not going to be easy on our books either. This is where Green really has value to us, best case scenario is he continues to develop but not too quickly. If he develops a bit more this next season but not so much that he becomes expensive then you could probably decline his team option and get him back on a very reasonably priced longer term deal that has a chance to turn into a very valuable contract if he continues to keep getting a little better.

There's also a chance Wood doesn't work out, the guy has zero playoff experience so to be honest it is a bit risky to count on him so much for a playoff run this upcoming season. That opens up free agency or a trade deadline move but that is also when you could potentially later regret not trying to develop the one guy on the team who is younger than Luka. Not trying to develop guys like Green is the kind of mentality that got Dirk shackled to some dreadful teams later in his career. Playoff lineups don't run 15 deep. Golden State had two 19 year olds and a 22 year old this season, aside from Poole they didn't get very much from them in the playoffs. Josh Green is the only player we have under the age of 23. We can afford to keep one of those guys. There's more upside to keeping him than there is to his trade value, and I'm thinking more than just for next season

[hakeemfaan]

I like Green. He has shown improvement.  I don’t agree with a lot of what Winter is saying on this thread wrt Green or how the Mavs have to have a win now mentality. The Mavs are not guaranteed to get past even the first round next year. They are a one star team in a tough conference.  Adding retread veterans thinking they will put you over the top is how a lot of franchises have got into trouble. 

Having said that, there are players who are untouchables, players who mgmt will trade only for the right price, and players who will always be part of any trade conversation. Whatever we say or feel, Green is going to be in the last category.