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2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]
(01-10-2022, 03:01 PM)Jym Wrote: I don't why everyone hates the idea of pairing KP and Turner
Isn't he just a better version of Maxi?

Don't think he can defend the perimeter like Maxi (or even Powell) can.  Its a little more awkward fit defensively.
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(01-10-2022, 02:44 PM)aguiar95 Wrote: He's another 3&D player that can't put the ball down and make a play. Will probably be a negative on offense, unless he shows something we haven't seen so far in IND. Can't playmake, mediocre rim-running ability. We're reliying on his 35% career 3-pt shooting for him to become something here.


Not saying that he could sustain the percentages on a higher volume but compared to KP his efficiency is on another level.

13.1ppg vs 20.6ppg
51.8% FG, 35.7% from 3, 74.7% FT vs 45.1% FG, 28.2% from 3, 88.3% FT
62.8% TS vs 56.3% TS

Gets even more interesting when we look at shooting splits from the field. Turner is the more efficient shooter from any distance (0-3, 3-10, 10-16, 16-3pt line and from 3).
Turner also ranks in the 90.7 percentile for post ups. KP in the 52.3 percentile. Once again KP with a higher volume.
KPs big advantage is the FTr. He is getting to the line.

Big question. Is Turner really worse or is he just getting less opportunities? Could KP replicate Turner´s efficiency if the Mavs would reduce his iso/midrange volume? Would that benefit the team?
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(01-10-2022, 03:07 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Not saying that he could sustain the percentages on a higher volume but compared to KP his efficiency is on another level.

13.1ppg vs 20.6ppg
51.8% FG, 35.7% from 3, 74.7% FT vs 45.1% FG, 28.2% from 3, 88.3% FT
62.8% TS vs 56.3% TS

Gets even more interesting when we look at shooting splits from the field. Turner is the more efficient shooter from any distance (0-3, 3-10, 10-16, 16-3pt line and from 3).
Turner also ranks in the 90.7 percentile for post ups. KP in the 52.3 percentile. Once again KP with a higher volume.
KPs big advantage is the FTr. He is getting to the line.

Big question. Is Turner really worse or is he just getting less opportunities? Could KP replicate Turner´s efficiency if the Mavs would reduce his iso/midrange volume? Would that benefit the team?

Its interesting because based on every advanced stat, they are not close in KPs favor.  Turner has been a below offensive player most of his career, but has been much better this year (possibly the Rick effect) at roughly .5 to 1 above average in offensive plus minus (OBPM, OEPM, O-Lebron) whereas KP has been roughly 2 above average most of his career and roughly 3 this year.

It seems regardless of whether you are looking at boxscore or on/off KP is way better.  From an advanced boxscore perspective, it seems that volume trumps efficiency, at least to a degree.  It also appears that KP has a much better on/off impact offensively.
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(01-10-2022, 02:44 PM)aguiar95 Wrote: My 2 cents on Turner: 

He's another 3&D player that can't put the ball down and make a play. Will probably be a negative on offense, unless he shows something we haven't seen so far in IND. Can't playmake, mediocre rim-running ability. We're reliying on his 35% career 3-pt shooting for him to become something here.

Defensively he's a beast. Oviously great shotblocking ability (bites on a lot of fakes and gives up tons of offensive rebounds chasing stats) but need a rebounder next to him to be effective. Have seen him guard 1-5 effectively and he's a lot better on switches than our man KP. Pairing KP-Turner would be far from ideal (except it's a major upgrade in talent). 

To me he's not a game-changer and not a guy i'd pursue with our current asset/roster situation. Unless KP is going somewhere, it's really hard to see him being here. And if Kp's going somewhere, we definetely need to address another good offensive piece out of our lineup (we'd be left with only Luka/JB as our offensive pieces).
I agree with most of this.

The kind of roster turnover (3-4 starter/rotation players) that is being discussed will kill any momentum DAL is developing if it's done at this point in the season. Maybe the team could get something re-established at the ASB, but good luck with a deeper playoff run. We've seen just this season how hard it is to get everyone bought in to a new scheme. Changing half the rotation is going to restart the process no matter what the upgrades are.

Personally, I'm finally starting to feel a little confidence in the MAVs. I'd want to be careful about blowing that up without some confidence there will be quick improvements.
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(01-10-2022, 03:27 PM)michaeltex Wrote: I agree with most of this.

The kind of roster turnover (3-4 starter/rotation players) that is being discussed will kill any momentum DAL is developing if it's done at this point in the season. Maybe the team could get something re-established at the ASB, but good luck with a deeper playoff run. We've seen just this season how hard it is to get everyone bought in to a new scheme. Changing half the rotation is going to restart the process no matter what the upgrades are.

Personally, I'm finally starting to feel a little confidence in the MAVs. I'd want to be careful about blowing that up without some confidence there will be quick improvements.

I agree with this to a degree, but it seems like a lot of the really big accomplishments and "gelling" for this team has been without KP and with limited contribution from THJ.  Feel like you could maybe send those two out without rocking the boat too much, and in that case Turner would be an excellent replacement for KP.
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(01-10-2022, 02:36 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: BTW, When they discussed Brooklyn as a Turner destination, they mentioned Dallas…but as a recipient of Irving.  They think some of the Dallas role players would be really helpful to the Nets and they are basically getting nothing from Irving now.  THJ, S. Brown and Willie is basically an exact money match for Irving.

They'd want DFS and not WCS.  Still a salary match.
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https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...6637851654
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(01-10-2022, 03:35 PM)mvossman Wrote: I agree with this to a degree, but it seems like a lot of the really big accomplishments and "gelling" for this team has been without KP and with limited contribution from THJ.  Feel like you could maybe send those two out without rocking the boat too much, and in that case Turner would be an excellent replacement for KP.

I felt like Kidd was sub-optimizing on KP to start the season. Maybe that raised KPs value, but it made for ugly basketball. Certainly, recent results indicate the team doesn't need AS-performance from KP to win. 

On the other hand, I don't know about Turner. A lot of people here, who sound like they have the skills to evaluate talent, seem to be high on him, but I'm wondering if he passes the eye test. Either way, it would take time to develop a rapport with Luka.
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(01-10-2022, 03:24 PM)mvossman Wrote: Its interesting because based on every advanced stat, they are not close in KPs favor.  Turner has been a below offensive player most of his career, but has been much better this year (possibly the Rick effect) at roughly .5 to 1 above average in offensive plus minus (OBPM, OEPM, O-Lebron) whereas KP has been roughly 2 above average most of his career and roughly 3 this year.

It seems regardless of whether you are looking at boxscore or on/off KP is way better.  From an advanced boxscore perspective, it seems that volume trumps efficiency, at least to a degree.  It also appears that KP has a much better on/off impact offensively.

Raw on/off is really noisy but favors Turner. Overall I tend to agree with you. Boxscore numbers aren´t everything and they aren´t telling us anyting about things like defensive attention/gravity. Would argue that KP is drawing more attention from the defense.
Just talking about the maths that are used in most boxscore based metrics Turner is getting punished for a negative ast/tov ratio. An area where KP improved a lot. So far he is having the best passing season of his career.

But just like I mentioned. It leads to the question if Turner could produce similar or even better numbers on similar volume in a more featured role (without Sabonis next to him). And even more important for the Mavs. Also looking back at the last season under RC. Would the Mavs offense be better with a reduced role for KP. on/off numbers suggest as much.
KPs role in the offense remains one of the most interesting topics. Maybe the easiest solution is a better balance. KP still getting some opportunities but not ranking among the top 5 in post up volume. Personally I am starting to think of him as the 3rd option behind Luka and Brunson.

Or as discussed in this thread. Find a replacement with other strengths (and weaknesses). A better fitting piece. Maybe Turner´s superior defense and efficient shooting is exactly that if it means that Doncic and especially Brunson get more opportunities with better spacing.
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Some nice things about Myles are his age and he'd probably be easy to retain long term.
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All of Turner weak points are a product of him playing next to Sabonis. Sabonis is a near the rim player and the main option in the PnR. He would look much better without Sabonis and with a competent ballhandler like Luka.
Also he is one of the best defensive bigs in the league, and as all of you can see, defense is what makes the Mavs soo good at the moment. Bringing in a defensive stud like Turner would be amazing. 
Also imagine trying to score in the paint agaist KP and Turner
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(01-10-2022, 01:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think he was always playing that kind of defense (at least pre-injury). It's just that it has been mixed into an overall team system that capitalizes on it more lately.
I'm not so sure it's always been the case, but he is good at those little things and is why I've always wanted to have him off the bench with Maxi. However, not many other teams in the NBA PAYS for that sort of production. DP's last 2 contracts are far more than other teams would pay for his services. Honestly, I'd prefer DFS getting DP's salary because I think he does more, I still think that would be an overpay for DFS, just not as much.
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https://twitter.com/mavspr/status/148064...41383?s=21
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(01-10-2022, 04:10 PM)Tyler Wrote: https://twitter.com/mavspr/status/148064...41383?s=21

It is tough to know what they saw in practice.    He was a bigger guard and supposedly a good shooter.  But he didn't show much in preseason and his stats in G-league were pretty average.    

I think both Feron Hunt and Carlik Jones had better upside.   I wonder if they go with either?    BTW, Tyler Bey has been putting up pretty good numbers for Houston's G-league team.
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It seems like Houston’s main team is their G-league which would make their G-League more like a summer camp. But I hear ya. Smile
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(01-10-2022, 04:25 PM)Tyler Wrote: It seems like Houston’s main team is their G-league which would make their G-League more like a summer camp. But I hear ya. Smile

Hell their d-league team might just beat them with the defense their main team has been playing lately
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Still confused as to how all of Turner's flaws are because of Sabonis (which I don't necessarily disagree with) but somehow those would go away if he's playing next to another guy who wants the ball in the post like KP....

Would love Turner, but only if KP is not here.
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(01-10-2022, 04:10 PM)Tyler Wrote: https://twitter.com/mavspr/status/148064...41383?s=21

Hmmmm.... hope they're not thinking about signing Chriss to the two-way. But if not him, who?
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I have no idea if this is legal, but it would make good sense. https://twitter.com/mavsfilmroom/status/...58883?s=21
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(01-10-2022, 04:27 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Still confused as to how all of Turner's flaws are because of Sabonis (which I don't necessarily disagree with) but somehow those would go away if he's playing next to another guy who wants the ball in the post like KP....

Would love Turner, but only if KP is not here.

Think you answered your own question.

The best things about Turner over KP are 1) salary, and 2) not having to be force-fed. Turner is injured about as frequently as Mr. Kleenex Physique, but doesn't have the "too tall" contact injury concerns. And yes, I said contact, not non-contact.
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