2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[fifteenth]

He has been saying that Bob Voulgaris plays poker with him and has been feeding him the Mavs plan....

LOL. You know what, I'd dismiss that immediately, except that evidently HogMelon has played poker with Bob as well.

[omahen]

LOL. You know what, I'd dismiss that immediately, except that evidently HogMelon has played poker with Bob as well.

I have no problem believing they played poker with Bob. The question you should ask yourself is - does he know he played with them

[Kammrath]

I'm like 100% sure @Kammrath gave him that title. 

FIFY.

[SleepingHero]

Am I the only one who doesn't want Kawhi?

There is a good chance he misses all of next season.  There goes another wasted year for Luka.  There is some chance he's KP V-2 and we are constantly worried that every time he falls to the ground, this is the one.  He's not exactly been the epitome of health the last few years.

I find a Kawhi signing would be a 1 step back temporarily, 10 steps forward in the future type of move. 

Kawhi is all but certain to miss next year, but the year after that the Mavs will have paired 2 of the best playoff performers of the last 10 years together. Instant title favorites, even if Kawhi takes a step back.

Given how Luka is guaranteed to be here another 6 years, I don't mind punting 1 of them to make sure the next 5 we have a bonafide 2-way superstar next to him even with all the health concerns.

[SleepingHero]

This gives me an interesting question. Let's say you are a Clippers GM and Kawhi comes to you "screw you all, I am going to Dallas". Do you prefer a KP SnT or do you say good luck?

Given how absolutely ****** they'd be if Kawhi would leave, I think they'd grab KP and hope for the best. The Clips have ZERO picks to play for. They don't have their own first round pick till 2027. If Kawhi leaves they'd still be close to capped out. Getting KP allows them to still be somewhat competitive in the short term.

[Hypermav]

I find a Kawhi signing would be a 1 step back temporarily, 10 steps forward in the future type of move. 

Kawhi is all but certain to miss next year, but the year after that the Mavs will have paired 2 of the best playoff performers of the last 10 years together. Instant title favorites, even if Kawhi takes a step back.

Given how Luka is guaranteed to be here another 6 years, I don't mind punting 1 of them to make sure the next 5 we have a bonafide 2-way superstar next to him even with all the health concerns.

Even if Kawhi asked out of here after a couple of years, the haul the Mavs would get back, would make Presti blush.  Enough to keep Luka in nice things for his career here.

[ClutchDirk]

https://preview.redd.it/to2vd63brfb71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=41eda61972ea9e516b60eb3252795f1d81db6338

[cow]

I have no problem believing they played poker with Bob. The question you should ask yourself is - does he know he played with them

Naming an AI player "BobV" in an computer poker game is not the same thing as playing poker with Voulgaris.

[Jommybone]

I’m also unsure of Kawhi’s fit here. Dallas wants a second star. Kawhi has a history of refusing to accept that role. Refused to fill it with Duncan in SA. Refused in Toronto with Lowry. Refused in LA with George. Especially on the big stage, he consistently outshines his batmans, making him a likely unacceptable robin. 

You all are right to hesitate.

On a serious note, I had a “partial tear” of my ACL in high school (the 80’s). Charles Henning, who pioneered ACL/meniscus reconstruction, declined to operate, saying I could resume playing in 4 weeks. It hurt like crazy when it happened but felt pretty normal 3 weeks after the fact, making it hard to sit out the full 4.

Just over 3 years later, Henning was my team doctor at Friends University, where I never made varsity but nonetheless qualified for the free shoes. When the doc examined me preseason, I reminded him of the diagnosis and decision not to operate. “Good decision,” he said.

I tore the ACL 20 years later after getting semi fat. A year later (plus a few more pounds), I tore the replacement too. Dang it. Point I’m making, I guess, is that I wouldn’t assume Kawhi will be out all year with a partial ACL tear. I know he had surgery, but this is a different injury from the usual tear. His out-time could be a whole lot shorter than people are thinking. (Maybe I’m also saying he shouldn’t get fat.)

Re Henning, see https://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stor...ocus1.html 

“More than 17 years after his untimely death, there's no questioning the legacy left behind by Dr. Charles E. Henning.

The Wichita orthopedic surgeon, who died in a June 1991 glider accident, is considered a pioneer of reconstructive knee surgery.
"He should be credited with teaching many of us in the United States how to do these repairs," says Dr. Frank Noyes, a surgeon on staff at Cincinnati Sportsmedicine and Orthopedic Center.

But while surgeons such as James Andrews and Frank Jobe have earned national acclaim as the leading shoulder and elbow specialists -- they're considered the modern-day patron saints of second chances and broken-down pitchers -- Henning died before he got the same kind of notoriety.”

[cow]

I think you throw caution to the wind with Leonard.  I have a laundry list too, but he'd be a very easy asset to move if it came down to it.

[ClutchDirk]

Dame>>>>Kawhi...

[cow]

Dame>>>>Kawhi...

whynotboth.gif

[KillerLeft]

So...yeah, there are some ways Kawhi Leonard could be a mistake, and the injury stuff is particularly valid. 

But, he's a top 5 player in the game. Possibly the best, when he's going well. Some might not want to admit this, but he's (currently) a better player than Luka, even. I don't think there's any rational conversation to be had about possibly choosing not to add him, if there even is a possibility he'd come here. 

Some things you can debate, but sometimes this stuff is so obvious there's no need. If you think the MBT wouldn't cut their own toes off to get that guy on this team, I believe you might be overthinking it a bit.

[TXBamanut]

I'm going to fall into the camp of iffy on Kawhi.  After multiple injuries, one chronic and now this major injury at 30.....with a year recovery....then probably a year of getting back to normal confidence.  If he is right, we may not really see the old Kawhi before he's 32....

Man, I just dont know....it's Kawhi, but if he can't play like Kawhi, it's not Kawhi.

I think where we are, the Mavs are more suited to handle his subdued (weird) leadership style, with Luka being good enough and leader enough to be the team alpha....but Kawhi has to be able to play.

We'll see.

[dynamicalVoid]

So...yeah, there are some ways Kawhi Leonard could be a mistake, and the injury stuff is particularly valid. 

But, he's a top 5 player in the game. Possibly the best, when he's going well. Some might not want to admit this, but he's (currently) a better player than Luka, even. I don't think there's any rational conversation about choosing not to add him to be had, if there even is a possibility. 

Some things you can debate, but sometimes this stuff is so obvious there's no need. If you think the MBT wouldn't cut their own toes off to get that guy on this team, I believe you might be overthinking it a bit.

Kawhi:

If he was to leave LA...would that not raise a red flag with you all?

I get that Mavs are trying to get out of a 10+ year talent rut...and need Dallas to be a destination...but man oh man do I consider Kawhi the off-court person risky...the basketball player is phenomenal.

Are the Mavs really at the point they need to invite a $34M+ mystery box on board that has a history of causing drama(intentional or not) at his other stops?

Here is what you risk with Leonard:

1) Him telling you he is not ready to return from an injury (even if given double the time others return from same injury)

2) Him being Ultra Family man and taking time away from team to deal with Family issues(what happens if a family member go sick and was sick and extended period of time?).  I dont fault him for being a family man...but he is paid large sums of money to................play basketball.   He is not being asked to go into a coal mine every day or being asked to parachute down into the middle of Fallujah.  

3) He forced his way out of 2 cities.   

There is an article(if true) online I read last year after their Bubble ousting that documented the supposed turmoil behind closed doors with the Clips and how Leonard and George were issues.   Body guards...Leonard refusing to live near practice facility...Leonard calling off practices...blah blah blah.

The guy seems to rub people a weird way.  Im not saying he is a bad person or wrong for getting to Cali.   He just seems to bring a lot of weird drama.

I would rather defeat him than win with him.   And I am a huge fan of his basketball.

[cjeter24]

Am I the only one who doesn't want Kawhi?

There is a good chance he misses all of next season.  There goes another wasted year for Luka.  There is some chance he's KP V-2 and we are constantly worried that every time he falls to the ground, this is the one.  He's not exactly been the epitome of health the last few years.

I've not seen much talk about what this would cost us.  His Max is $39,340,000.  We are 5 million short if we lose THJ, JRich and WCS if we are doing this with cap room.  So, we wipe out four guys to get a guy who can't play?  We can't trade match the $31.4mm needed directly with LAC without causing a hard-cap issue for them (I'm assuming you'd need S&T THJ as part of the deal, though he could go to a third team).  In fact, a three team trade is probably the best way to make this work, but you are still needing to send out at least $31.4mm

KP is a trade match at $31.6mm.  Does LAC want him?  If not, we have to find a third team that wants KP AND has stuff LAC wants.  That will probably require the third team either be a cap room team or have $25.2mm worth of outgoing.  Mark is going to need a spreadsheet for this.  Now we've traded one injury issue for another and wiped out $8 million of the space we have to fill out the roster for the year we are playing without Leonard.  I'm just not seeing it.

probably not the only one. but definitely minority. 
I get the idea of not wanting to have two players with injury question marks. So the solution is to trade the one that's isn't all nba player if thats the issue lol. 
It's a short term issue. He may miss all of next season and if he does, he'll be completely fine having almost 18 months to recover off an acl. 

The cap space is a non issue if he wants to come. We have Kleber we can move easily. We won't have a problem offloading the cap space since it's really small deals and/or good players. 

You'll get Kawhi at 32 so he should have several really solid years left. He's probably going to be past his prime but he's still going to be an elite player once he's returned. You do the move because you'll have a year to prepare for his return and your championship window gets blown wide open for the next 3-4 years.

[Hogmelon]

LOL. You know what, I'd dismiss that immediately, except that evidently HogMelon has played poker with Bob as well.

Huh?

I have played in two or three poker tournaments in which Voulgaris also played, but I have NEVER EVER played at the same table with him (neither in tournaments nor in cash games).

[omahen]

Let's say Mavs need to trade Brunson because he wants to leave next season. I also assume he is packaged with Powell and nothing else from our side. What options do you see?

Here are a couple of my ideas:
- Boston for Thompson, Nesmith and Grant Williams. Boston gets a better center and back up PG, Mavs get two young role players on cheap contracts
- Brooklyn - SnT for Dinwiddie. BKN is "awarded" Brunson to take Powell contract. Mavs keep most of cap space
- Indy for Lamb and Bitadze. Mavs get a cheap prospect center on cost controlled contract and a solid wing, Indy gets two RC guys
- Clippers for Kennard and 2021 FRP. Not really sure if this one makes sense for Clippers. They would have to love Brunson, I doubt they have any need for Powell
- Sacramento for Hield. Mavs get a shooter and keep a lot of cap space, Sacramento saves enough cap to resign Holmes and gets a third guard

[ItsGoTime]

Let's say Mavs need to trade Brunson because he wants to leave next season. I also assume he is packaged with Powell and nothing else from our side. What options do you see?

Here are a couple of my ideas:
- Boston for Thompson, Nesmith and Grant Williams. Boston gets a better center and back up PG, Mavs get two young role players on cheap contracts
- Brooklyn - SnT for Dinwiddie. BKN is "awarded" Brunson to take Powell contract. Mavs keep most of cap space
- Indy for Lamb and Bitadze. Mavs get a cheap prospect center on cost controlled contract and a solid wing, Indy gets two RC guys
- Clippers for Kennard and 2021 FRP. Not really sure if this one makes sense for Clippers. They would have to love Brunson, I doubt they have any need for Powell
- Sacramento for Hield. Mavs get a shooter and keep a lot of cap space, Sacramento saves enough cap to resign Holmes and gets a third guard

My thought was going the opposite direction. Adding money for us in this offseason. Looking at teams like OKC or NY to totally rid us of Powell's contract by adding JB as the prize. Something like Knox for Powell and JB. Roby for JB and Powell or something like that with OKC.

I think the difference in Powell's contract is a second rounder (he's still a useful player, just not worth the contract for 2 more years), so adding JB into the mix still leaves value to be realized.

Hield isn't a bad idea if we aren't going to resign THJ (although if we can resign THJ to a $12-13M contract, I'd rather have him), but his contract is worse than Powell's so they would need to add lots more to that trade IMO.

The rest of the trades are lower than optimal realized value IMO, maybe the IND one is good. Dinwiddie isn't too bad either. The Boston one just completely hampers us in many ways unless those prospects are really good (and that still hampers us cause we currently have 3 prospects on the team), which I don't think is the case although don't know enough to know.

[JamesConway]

https://twitter.com/ianbegley/status/141...63296?s=21