2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[dirkfansince1998]

Hard pass on Playoff P...I want to win playoff games...

Porzingis 17/4/0.5 59.6% TS
George 25.5/9/5.5 58.6% TS

[DanSchwartzgan]

Depends on JRich.  If he opts in, we are almost definitely operating over the cap (and likely trading him).  If he opts out, then ideally we can S&T him and stay over the cap, keep WCS and sign a MLE player.  If JRich walks and we can't get an S&T worked out, then we are looking at ~15 mil in cap space after THJ signing (not sure what his market will be, but it is going up right now).  That may not be enough for guys like Powell or Holmes (or even Fournier).  Most of the next best options that might fit in that range are restricted (Graham, Trent, Markkanen).

Given the likelihood that we are keeping THJ and his price going up, I think it is going to be tough to get a starter quality player in free agency.  I would greatly prefer the JRich trade scenario, but I don't know how likely that would be if he opts out?

I put this in another thread, but probably more appropriate here.  


The JRich Matrix looks like this:

Option                     Path to Improvement
JRich Opt-in/Stays:   MLE
JRich Opt-in/Trade:   Trade Return for JRich + MLE

JRich Opt-out:          Cap Room + RMLE (cap room may be limited with recent play of THJ)
JRich Opt-out/S&T:   Trade Return for JRich + RMLE

1. What can you get in trade for JRich?
2. Who is more valuable than JRich among the MLE candidates? 

 

[ClutchDirk]

Porzingis 17/4/0.5 59.6% TS
George 25.5/9/5.5 58.6% TS

One has many years of playoff disappointment...the other has played several playoff games total...

[cjeter24]

I don't think KP is going anywhere. You aren't getting a star back for him. The solution to the KP problem is to make him the #3 or co #2. Maybe Mavs eventually move on from him but it's not going to be this summer IMO.

[dirkfansince1998]

One has many years of playoff disappointment...the other has played several playoff games total...

All about the narrative...right? One guy missed the playoffs. The other was going head to head with LBJ and reached the ECF.

[SleepingHero]

Porzingis 17/4/0.5 59.6% TS
George 25.5/9/5.5 58.6% TS

Paul George has disappeared consistently when it matters most. EVERY place he's been to he's laid an egg in the biggest moments. 

Dude is a loser. If the Clips want to give us Pandemic P for scraps ok sure he'd be a fine 3rd option, but I wouldn't give anything for him.

Kawhi Leonard is another story...

[ClutchDirk]

Paul George -6 and -18 so far...

KP +13 and +10...

[StepBackJay]

The JRich Matrix looks like this:

Option                     Path to Improvement
JRich Opt-in/Stays:   MLE
JRich Opt-in/Trade:   Trade Return for JRich + MLE

JRich Opt-out:          Cap Room + RMLE (cap room may be limited with recent play of THJ)
JRich Opt-out/S&T:   Trade Return for JRich + RMLE

1. What can you get in trade for JRich?
2. Who is more valuable than JRich among the MLE candidates? 

Ya not sure who is more valuable in terms of MLE, I feel like full MLE is his value so the fact that you can pay him a little more with an opt-in and extend is an advantage. You can probably get a decent rotation player for J Rich but I might rather have J Rich all things considered. I think there is a better than 50% chance that you can either keep J Rich or get a player back for him.

I just don't see this cap room thing playing out because of the rise of THJ. Once it became clear THJ was going to play out of his mind then there is just little incentive to try to monkey with cap space.

[dirkfansince1998]

Paul George has disappeared consistently when it matters most. EVERY place he's been to he's laid an egg in the biggest moments. 

Dude is a loser. If the Clips want to give us Pandemic P for scraps ok sure he'd be a fine 3rd option, but I wouldn't give anything for him.

Kawhi Leonard is another story...

If PG is a loser...what is KP? PG made the playoffs as the best player prior to his injury. ECF in his 3rd and 4th season. Broke his leg and missed an entire season, bounced back and returned to an allstar level (finished 3rd in MVP voting). I don´t like PG and he hade some really bad moments in the last few seasons but at least he was good enough to get his teams into the playoffs and out of the first round.

[RedFlag41]

What do you think THJ new contract would look like if he resigns with the Mavs? I think it will be upwards of 20M a year.

[dirkfansince1998]

Paul George -6 and -18 so far...

KP +13 and +10...

Single game plus minus of a two game series.  By the way. KP the 4th best starter. Luka is the worst. I guess DFS, THJ and Maxi are the best players on the floor.

[SleepingHero]

If PG is a loser...what is KP? PG made the playoffs as the best player prior to his injury. ECF in his 3rd and 4th season. Broke his leg and missed an entire season, bounced back and returned to an allstar level (finished 3rd in MVP voting). I don´t like PG and he hade some really bad moments in the last few seasons but at least he was good enough to get his teams into the playoffs and out of the first round.

KP's entire career can be summed up as blue balls because he always gets injured before anything can really happen.

So to answer your question to what is KP? I don't know yet. In his time for DAL there has been growing pains, but with him the Mavs have posted historically efficient offenses. In the playoffs with a largely injured roster last year the Mavs almost played spoiler with KP playing very well until he got injured. This year's playoffs, KP isn't producing in the counting stats department but his presence has been largely positive and the Mavs are once again playing well in the playoffs with him at 2nd fiddle.

PG has had the better career so far, no arguing that overall. But there's a reason why he's called Pandemic P. Or No OT tonight P. Dude has consistently laid eggs when it matters most. IND was happy to get rid of him. OKC had 2 unremarkable playoff runs. Now in LAC we see PG underperform last year and while he's playing much better this year it's not leading to wins. 

So I'd take KP over PG since we've seen KP average 30/10 and play great defense. The potential, as always with KP, is too tantalizing to pass up on. Meanwhile we know what PG is. A top 20 guy that may or may not lose you a game in the playoffs.

[SkenfromLMF]

I have looked at this team as asset building - keeping the band together and adding the full MLE level of player (Shout out to LM) seems to be the best improvement in assets. 

The 2 trade pieces to consider are a S&T of JJ Reddick and/or a Burke + WCS combo that could return another MLE salary slot.

[dirkfansince1998]

KP's entire career can be summed up as blue balls because he always gets injured before anything can really happen.

So to answer your question to what is KP? I don't know yet. In his time for DAL there has been growing pains, but with him the Mavs have posted historically efficient offenses. In the playoffs with a largely injured roster last year the Mavs almost played spoiler with KP playing very well until he got injured. This year's playoffs, KP isn't producing in the counting stats department but his presence has been largely positive and the Mavs are once again playing well in the playoffs with him at 2nd fiddle.

PG has had the better career so far, no arguing that overall. But there's a reason why he's called Pandemic P. Or No OT tonight P. Dude has consistently laid eggs when it matters most. IND was happy to get rid of him. OKC had 2 unremarkable playoff runs. Now in LAC we see PG underperform last year and while he's playing much better this year it's not leading to wins. 

So I'd take KP over PG since we've seen KP average 30/10 and play great defense. The potential, as always with KP, is too tantalizing to pass up on. Meanwhile we know what PG is. A top 20 guy that may or may not lose you a game in the playoffs.

KP has some unflatterting nicknames as well. Just like PG he had some off court issues and it´s not like the Knicks wanted to keep him. KPs presence this season hasn´t been largely positive. Clutch just used the +/- of the last two games to make a case for KP. For the entire season he has the 2nd worst +/- among all rotation players.
Agree that KP was really good in the bubble (including the four games he played against the Clippers). But the 30/10 you are using is  based on a six game sample size. Paul George on the other hand averaged 28/8/4 for an entire season Playing elite defense and leading the league in steals.

Again PG had some bad moments in the last couple of years but overall he hasn´t been as bad in the playoffs as people are making him out to be. The entire PG choker narrative is more about his incredible stupid post game interviews (see yesterday). By the way. I remember a certain player from Wurzburg with a similar reputation. George was really good in Indiana. Lost against peak LBJ and the Heat. Indiana wasn´t happy to get rid of him. He wanted out because they couldn´t get him any help. Reminds me of a few other players (inlcuding KP in NY).

PG is simply a better player. KP has never been a top 20 guy in his entire career. At his best he was a borderline allstar in NY. Looked like an allstar for ten games in the bubble. You mentioned it. KP is all about potential. Right now he is not even the 2nd fiddle on the Mavs and with all the injuries he is probably worse than he was last year. We are comparing a legit top 15-20 player that has been on that level for nearly 10 years to a player that might be something if he can improve and stay healthy.

Side note: I hate that I have to argue in PGs favor.

[dynamicalVoid]

I have looked at this team as asset building - keeping the band together and adding the full MLE level of player (Shout out to LM) seems to be the best improvement in assets. 

The 2 trade pieces to consider are a S&T of JJ Reddick and/or a Burke + WCS combo that could return another MLE salary slot.

Im not an NBA salary historian by any means...but if the Mavs have Front Court issues...and posters on here claim WCS has high +/- or defensive numbers...do you not want to keep him at 4M?  Maybe I am considering the DP contract too much here.

I get that its about value and what you can get in return.   But WCS seems like an asset at 4M.   

I saw him make Leonard do a U-Turn in the lane...guards have a hard time driving on him when he is switched on them(it seems...I dont watch tape...just live game eye test).   There are a lot of tall, long quick footed guys these days...but a lot of them are like Bismack Biyombo.  Maybe Im wrong and need to study the league more.   

Is WCS's offense so bad...his bball IQ and awareness so bad that he isnt worth 4M?  Seems like his defense is worth something more than 4M.  Maybe I need to study more.

[DrMav]

Im not an NBA salary historian by any means...but if the Mavs have Front Court issues...and posters on here claim WCS has high +/- or defensive numbers...do you not want to keep him at 4M?  Maybe I am considering the DP contract too much here.

I get that its about value and what you can get in return.   But WCS seems like an asset at 4M.   

I saw him make Leonard do a U-Turn in the lane...guards have a hard time driving on him when he is switched on them(it seems...I dont watch tape...just live game eye test).   There are a lot of tall, long quick footed guys these days...but a lot of them are like Bismack Biyombo.  Maybe Im wrong and need to study the league more.   

Is WCS's offense so bad...his bball IQ and awareness so bad that he isnt worth 4M?  Seems like his defense is worth something more than 4M.  Maybe I need to study more.

Yeah I think he provides too much value at his contract size to just dump for a few million more in cap space unless it’s because the Mavs and him already have another deal set up.

[Omega_Supreme]

Im not an NBA salary historian by any means...but if the Mavs have Front Court issues...and posters on here claim WCS has high +/- or defensive numbers...do you not want to keep him at 4M?  Maybe I am considering the DP contract too much here.

I get that its about value and what you can get in return.   But WCS seems like an asset at 4M.   

I saw him make Leonard do a U-Turn in the lane...guards have a hard time driving on him when he is switched on them(it seems...I dont watch tape...just live game eye test).   There are a lot of tall, long quick footed guys these days...but a lot of them are like Bismack Biyombo.  Maybe Im wrong and need to study the league more.   

Is WCS's offense so bad...his bball IQ and awareness so bad that he isnt worth 4M?  Seems like his defense is worth something more than 4M.  Maybe I need to study more.

I like WCS at that price but I look at it like this, what players should we look to upgrade vs. what players should we keep. 

Players to Upgrade: 
JJ Reddick 
Nico Mellie 
Willie Cauley-Stein

What are the need areas: 
3 Point shooting 
High Motor Big 
Wing Defender in the 6-7 to 6-9 range 
Secondary ball handler 

What makes this tough is figuring out who needs to go. I actually like Josh Richardson long term as long as its on a Seth Curry like contract. I think he is a good piece and he fits in and meshes well in the locker room. 

I thin the key is grabbing guys that fit multiple holes on the team. For example, Goran Dragic adds shooting, iso scoring, and secondary ball handler and could come at a discount. 

Who do I target: 
Keep Tim Hardaway Jr. 
Keep Josh Richardson 
Sign Goran Dragic (Secondary ball handler, Shooter, iso scorer) 
Sign Richaun Holmes (High Motor Big) 
Sign Rudy Gay (Wing Defender in the 6-7 to 6-9 range)  
or 
Otto Porer Jr (Wing Defender in the 6-7 to 6-9 range)

[Mavs2021]

Wait what Zach Lavine sold his house in Chicago.

[StepBackJay]

Who do I target: 
Keep Tim Hardaway Jr. 
Keep Josh Richardson 
Sign Goran Dragic (Secondary ball handler, Shooter, iso scorer) 
Sign Richaun Holmes (High Motor Big) 
Sign Rudy Gay (Wing Defender in the 6-7 to 6-9 range)  
or 
Otto Porer Jr (Wing Defender in the 6-7 to 6-9 range)

I would probably keep WCS in any scenario. THJ will cost 20 so you can either add MLE, BAE to that or use 10 mil of cap space + rMLE. It's possible that you can get Dragic around 10 and wing depth (OPJ or Gay) for that 5 mil spot. That would be my game plan. Dragic gives you another ball handler. Mavs really need another wing in the rotation that can be relied on. Playing Melli in the playoffs is not good. Of course J Rich is a wildcard. You might be able to keep him or trade him for a wing rotation player. Mavs at this point should just try to fill in holes. I think their big rotation is already good with the 4-pack of KP, Maxi, Powell, WCS.

[StepBackJay]

Yeah I think he provides too much value at his contract size to just dump for a few million more in cap space unless it’s because the Mavs and him already have another deal set up.

Ya I mean you saw his impact last game in the 3rd quarter. He is locked in right now which is to be expected in a playoff game. I can tolerate some spacing out in the regular season bc you have Powell there. If he's going to give us these quality playoff minutes then he is a keeper.