2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[StepBackJay]

Why wouldn't you be able to? Never heard of that being a problem as long as the salary matching/cap rules are followed.

Have we seen double S&T's?

[StepBackJay]

So looking at basketball reference it does look like Kemba/Rozier was a double S&T.

[Branduil]

Have we seen double S&T's?

The Kemba/Rozier trade would be a recent example.

[Scott41theMavs]

I would want both Collins and Holmes if we could trade KP in the process. Those two are our frontcourt starters, and KP and other space brings back a new backcourt mate for Luka.

[dynamicalVoid]

I like either except as you say Collins is more expensive, could cost an asset and thus seems like a riskier target. Holmes could get be had more easily and is less risky. We know the Mavs like both. Collins seems like Powell with more versatility, naming outside shooting which would definitely put pressure on the defense.

With Holmes you would have a more well-rounded player than Powell but potentially also have money for a legit starting caliber guard.

As long Holmes doesnt put us in a 4 vs 5 disadvantage on offense like JRich is doing.

Collins obviously prevents that with his 3 shot.

Holmes mobility/athleticism is hard to ignore on either side of the floor...but is there a spacing issue?  Or can you run the p-n-r(with Luka/Holmes) with option to kick out all game long?

[Scott41theMavs]

As long Holmes doesnt put us in a 4 vs 5 disadvantage on offense like JRich is doing.

Collins obviously prevents that with his 3 shot.

Holmes mobility/athleticism is hard to ignore on either side of the floor...but is there a spacing issue?  Or can you run the p-n-r(with Luka/Holmes) with option to kick out all game long?

JC would probably have a KP-like issue with that approach, but I'm good with it. I think you'd have to vary their minutes to give JC some good offensive opportunities.

[dynamicalVoid]

I would want both Collins and Holmes if we could trade KP in the process. Those two are our frontcourt starters, and KP and other space brings back a new backcourt mate for Luka.

I am not an NBA transaction historian...

Once one acquisition happens...would the team involved in the second trade veto due to Mavs becoming too powerful?  Regardless of need/trade value for second team?   Sort of along the lines of divisional teams dont trade with each other.

[SleepingHero]

Tonight 4 guys played over 30 mins for ATL.....and JC played 18 mins.

You tell me how you think he feels about that......

Just prefacing this with saying that I really like John Collins, but one does have to wonder WHY ATL feels so comfortable diminishing his role and moving on from him. 

He's a stud by all counting stats. He theoretically fits super well with Trae Young and he fits the mold of a modern stretch 4. So it begs to wonder why ATL is trying to move on?

Is it really just a locker room difference? Does Collins defense leave that much to be desired? Just puzzling why ATL would be eager to move on.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Enjoyed the KP/Charlotte proposals.  I'm a bit surprised that no one brought up the fact that Charlotte can simply sign their center through free agency.  They can get to about $25mm including the cost of their mid-first pretty easily if they are willing to let go of Monk.  So, they could bid for Collins.  Or, keep Monk and have $12mm for players like Holmes and Harrell.  This places a natural ceiling on what they might bid for KP.  If you assume they wouldn't land Collins, the decision is KP at some cost vs. some of the many bigs we discuss here for Dallas at something north of the MLE.  

Of course, there are things a healthy KP can do that these MLE-Plus centers can't.  There is also the possibility Charlotte doesn't think it can land any of those guys.  As we've seen here the last two summers, there is power in certainty rather than sitting around hoping this or that falls your way.  Charlotte has done a nice job of adding Rozier and Hayward the last two summers to the younger players they've accumulated the last few years. The picks of Graham, Ball, Washington,  Bridges and (finally) Monk look to be good ones.  Monk took some time, but looks like a future Lou Williams sixth man of the year type.  They do have some excess on the roster, but Hayward is the only player you'd call expensive and he and Rozier can fall off before you have to start paying all these good rookies.  The appeal of Charlotte is they will have to thin the herd at some point.  Will Rozier be happy backing up Graham and Ball?  If you are going to pay a sixth man, shouldn't it be Monk instead of Rozier who can walk in a year?  If you get a center, someone from among Washington, Bridges and Hayward is a bench player.  But all three look like starters.  Charlotte has excess talent in some areas and a huge hole in another and some of that excess talent is going to want to get paid soon.  Teams plan these things out 2-3 years in advance.

Yes, we've seen double sign and trades.  BYC can still be an issue, especially when a player is getting a big raise.  That isn't a problem if the receiving team still has cap room after the deal (which would likely be the case if a S&T Graham or Monk was coming here with KP as part of the outgoing).  BTW, could we please use the right room number for Dallas.  It is $34.4mm without WCS.  Not $34mm and then another $4mm if you move on from Willie.  The stakes of such a trade and the additional work both teams need to do would seem to indicate this wouldn't be a S&T deal on either side.  Too much uncertainty as Free Agency opens.  It would best be accomplished as a draft day deal or a draft day (pre-moratorium) deal that is agreed to, but executed in the new NBA year.  Neither team would do a deal this big as a fall-back position or allow a S&T player to gum up the works on a deal this big.

It is hard to know what the actual components would look like.  I feel strongly it would be Rozier rather than Graham.  He's really a pretty good alternative for Dallas when you consider the free agent guards we'd be looking at for similar money.  I focused on Bridges mainly because some of the original conversation seemed to miss the fact he's really breaking out all of a sudden.  Truth is, Washington would probably be the better fit next to DFS.  Of course, the question really is what does Charlotte think would fit best next to KP?  I'm fine with either coming here as I think we would add Holmes and switch everything.  Charlotte can do either version under the cap and retain room for Monk's hold.  If Charlotte wants to stay over the cap, they'd need to add some outgoing salary and trade match KP's income salary.

I get that everyone wants us to get this seed and match up against some specific team and win a first round series.  It is arguably more important for long term team building that KP play well no matter the outcome.  To get the highest value for him (if you assume he will be traded), you have to have him play well on the bigger stage of the playoffs and finish said playoffs completely healthy.

[StepBackJay]

Related to Dan's point I am interested in Rozier as a stand-alone trade target. I wonder if he could be have via a S&T (JRicjh. THJ) or by some other means (Powell, Josh Green).

If Mavs could get Rozier and Holmes I like that starting lineup (assuming KP stays). Depending on what pieces move out you might have enough room for a decent shooter. Even if Mavs have a thinner bench I can live with that for one season. There's always the buyout market or TDL to try to add another bench piece.

This doesn't solve the KP-problem but maybe things improve after a full off-season and full 82 game season with less "rest games" needed.

I like that Rozier solves the scoring, playmaking gap in the starting lineup (shooting as well) and Holmes presents an upgrade over Powell in defense and scoring.

[Jason Terry]

Enjoyed the KP/Charlotte proposals.  I'm a bit surprised that no one brought up the fact that Charlotte can simply sign their center through free agency.  They can get to about $25mm including the cost of their mid-first pretty easily if they are willing to let go of Monk.  So, they could bid for Collins.  Or, keep Monk and have $12mm for players like Holmes and Harrell.  This places a natural ceiling on what they might bid for KP.  If you assume they wouldn't land Collins, the decision is KP at some cost vs. some of the many bigs we discuss here for Dallas at something north of the MLE.  

Of course, there are things a healthy KP can do that these MLE-Plus centers can't.  There is also the possibility Charlotte doesn't think it can land any of those guys.  As we've seen here the last two summers, there is power in certainty rather than sitting around hoping this or that falls your way.  Charlotte has done a nice job of adding Rozier and Hayward the last two summers to the younger players they've accumulated the last few years. The picks of Graham, Ball, Washington,  Bridges and (finally) Monk look to be good ones.  Monk took some time, but looks like a future Lou Williams sixth man of the year type.  They do have some excess on the roster, but Hayward is the only player you'd call expensive and he and Rozier can fall off before you have to start paying all these good rookies.  The appeal of Charlotte is they will have to thin the herd at some point.  Will Rozier be happy backing up Graham and Ball?  If you are going to pay a sixth man, shouldn't it be Monk instead of Rozier who can walk in a year?  If you get a center, someone from among Washington, Bridges and Hayward is a bench player.  But all three look like starters.  Charlotte has excess talent in some areas and a huge hole in another and some of that excess talent is going to want to get paid soon.  Teams plan these things out 2-3 years in advance.

Yes, we've seen double sign and trades.  BYC can still be an issue, especially when a player is getting a big raise.  That isn't a problem if the receiving team still has cap room after the deal (which would likely be the case if a S&T Graham or Monk was coming here with KP as part of the outgoing).  BTW, could we please use the right room number for Dallas.  It is $34.4mm without WCS.  Not $34mm and then another $4mm if you move on from Willie.  The stakes of such a trade and the additional work both teams need to do would seem to indicate this wouldn't be a S&T deal on either side.  Too much uncertainty as Free Agency opens.  It would best be accomplished as a draft day deal or a draft day (pre-moratorium) deal that is agreed to, but executed in the new NBA year.  Neither team would do a deal this big as a fall-back position or allow a S&T player to gum up the works on a deal this big.

It is hard to know what the actual components would look like.  I feel strongly it would be Rozier rather than Graham.  He's really a pretty good alternative for Dallas when you consider the free agent guards we'd be looking at for similar money.  I focused on Bridges mainly because some of the original conversation seemed to miss the fact he's really breaking out all of a sudden.  Truth is, Washington would probably be the better fit next to DFS.  Of course, the question really is what does Charlotte think would fit best next to KP?  I'm fine with either coming here as I think we would add Holmes and switch everything.  Charlotte can do either version under the cap and retain room for Monk's hold.  If Charlotte wants to stay over the cap, they'd need to add some outgoing salary and trade match KP's income salary.

I get that everyone wants us to get this seed and match up against some specific team and win a first round series.  It is arguably more important for long term team building that KP play well no matter the outcome.  To get the highest value for him (if you assume he will be traded), you have to have him play well on the bigger stage of the playoffs and finish said playoffs completely healthy.

Looking at their common lineups they almost always have 2 of PJ, Bridges and Hayward on the court at all times. Seems they’ve used PJ as the 4 often. And yes they can keep everyone and sign a 5 for ~12 million and then use the room exception on a player like WCS. That seems like a great option for them. 

The only player it makes sense to trade is Rozier. Maybe draft day Rozier, 2021 FRP, and 2023 FRP for KP. It would allow them to operate over the cap to keep the full MLE for a high quality backup 4/5. Do it draft day to match salaries

Ball
Graham/Monk
Hayward/Bridges
Washington
KP

Plus Full MLE, McDaniels, Carey and the Martin brothers to fill out the roster. Good deep young team

[StepBackJay]

As long Holmes doesnt put us in a 4 vs 5 disadvantage on offense like JRich is doing.

Collins obviously prevents that with his 3 shot.

Holmes mobility/athleticism is hard to ignore on either side of the floor...but is there a spacing issue?  Or can you run the p-n-r(with Luka/Holmes) with option to kick out all game long?

Collins definitely adds another dimension in that he can roll and shoot outside. So he brings something that Powell doesn't in that way. Holmes to seems like he would bring more defensively but also be a better version of Powell on offense.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Related to Dan's point I am interested in Rozier as a stand-alone trade target. I wonder if he could be have via a S&T (JRicjh. THJ) or by some other means (Powell, Josh Green).

If Mavs could get Rozier and Holmes I like that starting lineup (assuming KP stays). Depending on what pieces move out you might have enough room for a decent shooter. Even if Mavs have a thinner bench I can live with that for one season. There's always the buyout market or TDL to try to add another bench piece.

This doesn't solve the KP-problem but maybe things improve after a full off-season and full 82 game season with less "rest games" needed.

I like that Rozier solves the scoring, playmaking gap in the starting lineup (shooting as well) and Holmes presents an upgrade over Powell in defense and scoring.

Powell Green is an interesting concept for them.  It would add to cap space compared to Rozier and give them  some cheap defensive help off the bench in Green.  It leaves them to solve their own starting center issue and we’d be directly competing for Holmes potentially.  I think they are a more logical home for Collins than we are and have some nice assets to offer Atlanta (or can just offer the max and hope Atlanta doesn’t match).

I’d do DP/JG for Rozier and McDaniels as Rozier can walk in a year.  We lose $5.6mm in cap room in that deal, but that is still enough to offer a 0-6 max or two nice contracts averaging $14mm-ish.  Use some on Holmes to get Holmes/KP/DFS/Rozier/Luka.  Then, get a true sixth man type at SF/SG to go with a bench of WCS/Maxi/Brunson.  Fills three holes without going nuts on spending for any one player and improves O and D.  I like it.

[omahen]

So, they could bid for Collins.  Or, keep Monk and have $12mm for players like Holmes and Harrell.  This places a natural ceiling on what they might bid for KP.

Charlotte is looking for a longterm solution. Robinson and Allen are RFA and unlikely. Collins is not really a center, very similar to what they have in Washington. This basically leaves Holmes, unless Charlotte is stupid enough to go after Drummond. Everything else is not really starting material.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Charlotte is looking for a longterm solution. Robinson and Allen are RFA and unlikely. Collins is not really a center, very similar to what they have in Washington. This basically leaves Holmes, unless Charlotte is stupid enough to go after Drummond. Everything else is not really starting material.

They often get associated with Harrell too.

[KillerLeft]

Just making sure you've actually seen Bridges play in the last month or so...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE7JCBEXbtw

I've seen him a ton. His catch and shoot game might be better than TBey's ever will be, but what makes him famous is the rim-running. I think Bey is potentially able to do that stuff a little easier with his superior size and physicality.

[michaeltex]

Can I get some JRich clarity?

As I understand, he has a PO for next year at ~$11.6M. My questions of the experts here are:

• Would we expect him to opt in for another big payday or opt out in hopes of getting a longer deal at a lower salary, but for more overall?
  
• I see comments about letting JRich go, but it's really his decision correct? I mean he can be cut, but there is a financial cost if he opts in?
  
• Is he SnT eligible if he opts in?
  
• If he opts out, DAL can still sign him to a more friendly deal, correct? If so, is he SnT eligible then. (I know there is a years limit on SnT deals)
  

To me he's a bust here. Seems like a good guy. Hasn't really complained. But he is not the stopper DAL sold him as. Certainly not a reliable scorer next to Luka. I think he'll end up hurting DAL in the playoffs as teams sag off to double Luka.

Personally, I hope he declines then finds a home somewhere else. Kind of in the same boat with THJ.

[Mavs2021]

Okay Charlotte, Sacramento and Golden State are the obvious teams.

Who else could be in for Porzingis?

Wizards, Spurs, Raptors, Celtics?

[dirkfansince1998]

Okay Charlotte, Sacramento and Golden State are the obvious teams.

Who else could be in for Porzingis?

Wizards, Spurs, Raptors, Celtics?

Maybe the Pelicans? A real stretch five that can protect the rim and space the floor is basically the perfect fit next to Zion.

[Mapka]

Okay Charlotte, Sacramento and Golden State are the obvious teams.

Who else could be in for Porzingis?

Wizards, Spurs, Raptors, Celtics?

It's easy - if KP is healthy every team is in for a Kings ransom.

He is not. So teams will offer no real value.

We can gift away him or keep him as a lottery ticket ourself.