2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[KillerLeft]

Federally Appointed KP Hater.. 

I don't hate him, I just hate his contract and what he has done to this team's timeline.

[Scott41theMavs]

I respect that many of y'all seem to want Lowry, that is your legit basketball opinion apparently (and I get that Lowry has been a good ball player)....


.....but this is how it makes me feel:

1) This season is showing that Luka wasn't ready to be handed the keys. We need veteran leadership that plays a sufficient on-court role to be listened to. 2) Mavs bad at defense. Lowry good at defense. 3) One of the things we've been fussing about all this season and before is that Luka needs another reliable playmaker next to him.

The only legitimacy to your gif, to be quite honest, is Brunson. He must not be outgoing in such a trade. Moreover, obtaining Lowry would crush his minutes anyway. But even if the Mavs commit to Brunson as our new playmaker, he's not good at defense, thus leaving us with a non-defense backcourt as well as of course the continued dearth of veteran leadership.

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That's how Drummond makes me feel. Tho I might be interested in him as a way to salary dump KP/Powell.

I've said over and over, you can't tank this year. You only do such a deal if Drummond is to be here longterm, which you don't want him to be. 

The only "KP salary dump" that makes sense is a trade involving NY (likely multi-team for obvious reasons) is one that gets us back our picks.

[KillerLeft]

I've said over and over, you can't tank this year. You only do such a deal if Drummond is to be here longterm, which you don't want him to be. 

The only "KP salary dump" that makes sense is a trade involving NY (likely multi-team for obvious reasons) is one that gets us back our picks.

I disagree. 

Imagine, for a moment, that NY gets a good pick from us, even if KP is here. This nightmare has a decent chance of happening in real life.

Now, imagine that KP (not just because of his play, but because of his contract) is a major road block to the prospect of being good three years from now. 

I fail to see any reason to wait to deal with this. 

Now, if you're in the camp that KP's poor defensive play has more to do with things like understanding his role, gaining confidence in his repaired knees, etc, and NOT due to a permanently declined (and still declining) capacity for movement, then you could argue that it's silly to give up on him now. I could understand that opinion. But, if the team is convinced that he's going to be a problem on defense (at a position around which their defense should be built) for the foreseeable future, then I think it's folly to hold onto him for one second longer than absolutely necessary. Yes, you'll give NY a good pick, but you might be waiting to get an even less exciting return than what you'd get now. The true value of such a deal is to open up possibilities for the future, imo.

[ItsGoTime]

I think it was Dan or Kamm that said let KP do his thing for the rest of this year. That keeps him happy, and the happier he is, in theory, the better he will play. In the offseason (if he isn't nursing yet another injury) you make a decision on if you want to keep making him happy, or trade him for a value that is on par with his potential. That, to me, is the only way to get max value out of him either way.

[Kammrath]

I think it was Dan or Kamm that said let KP do his thing for the rest of this year. That keeps him happy, and the happier he is, in theory, the better he will play. In the offseason (if he isn't nursing yet another injury) you make a decision on if you want to keep making him happy, or trade him for a value that is on par with his potential. That, to me, is the only way to get max value out of him either way.

Yep that's my plan.

1) Give in to KP's demands, make him happy and get him lots of great numbers.

2) See if you can figure out how to win while doing that.

3) If you win, great! Build around that! If you fail to win like you need to, then trade inflated numbers KP for the biggest return you can to give Luka better partners.

[KillerLeft]

I don't hate that plan, and that's probably a fairly accurate explanation of what the Mavs are doing right now. 

Having said that, we might all wish fairly soon that instead of "get the most out of a KP trade possible" the plan would've been "avoid getting stuck with KP when the music stops."

[ItsGoTime]

Having said that, we might all wish fairly soon that instead of "get the most out of a KP trade possible" the plan would've been "avoid getting stuck with KP when the music stops."

I'm fine with the first one after reading the recent article that showed what some writers thought KP's value was. Even if we're "stuck" with KP for the rest of his contract, he is still a 20 pt, 8-9 reb, 1.6-2 block player (if not more as he gains confidence and strength and happiness from playing however he wants to).

[KillerLeft]

Even if we're "stuck" with KP for the rest of his contract, he is still a 20 pt, 8-9 reb, 1.6-2 block player (if not more as he gains confidence and strength and happiness from playing however he wants to).

Oooooooh, I'm not so sure of that. 

He could get much worse. Or, he could be healthy for only 40 games over the next three seasons...or fewer. If I agreed that what you describe above is the worst case scenario, I'd be lockstep in line with your thinking, but...what if it's the BEST case scenario?

[ItsGoTime]

Also, the plan isn't "get the most value out of a KP trade". There is room in the plan to evaluate it and see that KP is still what we want on the roster after the dust clears.

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Oooooooh, I'm not so sure of that. 

He could get much worse. Or, he could be healthy for only 40 games over the next three seasons...or fewer. If I agreed that what you describe above is the worst case scenario, I'd be lockstep in line with your thinking, but...what if it's the BEST case scenario?

So can every player in the NBA. I also accounted for his injury history.

[KillerLeft]

So can every player in the NBA. I also accounted for his injury history.

True, but I feel like there are indications that make the "worst case scenario" seem much more likely in KP's case than for most other players. I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion, but pretending he has the same odds as anyone else is a major stretch. 

I really hope the Mavs aren't burying their heads in the sand on this. This is such a critical decision.

[ItsGoTime]

True, but I feel like there are indications that make the "worst case scenario" seem much more likely in KP's case than for most other players. I'm not saying it's a forgone conclusion, but pretending he has the same odds as anyone else is a major stretch. 

I really hope the Mavs aren't burying their heads in the sand on this. This is such a critical decision.

What happened to you? You've been the pinnacle of "be patient". I feel like KP did something to you personally.

[Scott41theMavs]

Did no one see my point that it only takes one of the other 29 teams with value interest (willing to pay what he ought to be worth in trade), and then you bring in the third team who has what you want? We get the players we want, team two gets Porzingis, and team three gets the value from team three. In the event that KL is right about KP (maybe KL is just jealous about KP honing in on the "K initial" market...), then it only takes one team in the entire league to make it worthwhile. Then it doesn't matter what the other 28 teams think about him. The only issue is making KP mad if you float him in trade and there isn't a team who will give value.

[ItsGoTime]

Did no one see my point that it only takes one of the other 29 teams with value interest (willing to pay what he ought to be worth in trade), and then you bring in the third team who has what you want? We get the players we want, team two gets Porzingis, and team three gets the value from team three. In the event that KL is right about KP (maybe KL is just jealous about KP honing in on the "K initial" market...), then it only takes one team in the entire league to make it worthwhile. Then it doesn't matter what the other 28 teams think about him. The only issue is making KP mad if you float him in trade and there isn't a team who will give value.

I agree, we would have to uncover that 1 team though (which is giving up some level of negotiation power and as you said, potentially angering KP for being shopped), and if you have multiple teams it's easier to drive up the price.

[KillerLeft]

What happened to you? You've been the pinnacle of "be patient". I feel like KP did something to you personally.

I just feel like I've seen enough to make up my mind about him. It's not personal, and I'd be thrilled to be wrong. I just don't see how the story has a happy ending for a team whose worst defender is their center.

[omahen]

Interesting dilemma at this point for me is: would you go "all in" for a semi star player if available?

By semi star player I consider players of Collins or LaVine level. By all in I mean 2025 and 2027 FRP, Brunson, salary filler and whatever assets needed.

[KillerLeft]

Interesting dilemma at this point for me is: would you go "all in" for a semi star player if available?

By semi star player I consider players of Collins or LaVine level. By all in I mean 2025 and 2027 FRP, Brunson, salary filler and whatever assets needed.

And, what's the verdict?

[ItsGoTime]

By semi star player I consider players of Collins or LaVine level. By all in I mean 2025 and 2027 FRP, Brunson, salary filler and whatever assets needed.

I've been on record for a while saying I'd trade the whole team minus Luka and KP for a player like that. I think one of those two would solve a lot of problems for us...probably. Honestly, with Luka and KP we don't need another full on all star (not saying KP is an all star, IMO he is a cusp all star, which if we got 1 or 2 more, that would be great). All star snubs and below is what we NEED IMO. Never bought into the superstar trio game. In Mia, Bosh wasn't worthy of being called a superstar, and having other higher quality players for his salary might have made them the "not 1, not 2, not 3..." team (of course, they weren't ever gonna beat the Mavs the first year, but they could have beaten the Spurs!).

[chaparral]

I just feel like I've seen enough to make up my mind about him. It's not personal, and I'd be thrilled to be wrong. I just don't see how the story has a happy ending for a team whose worst defender is their center.

Did not read this whole back and forth on KP.  But would like to know if you would trade him for Drummond?  And could we get draft picks in that deal?

[ItsGoTime]

I just feel like I've seen enough to make up my mind about him.

I think you've possibly gone down a path I've taken at times and worked yourself up about him and can't back down (I got that way about Powell at one time until I realized he was just being put in a role that wasn't best suited for his skill level). Now every little thing he does is a mistake, never getting the benefit of the doubt. 

I'm not saying you're wrong either in all honesty, he for real could be what you're saying (well, other than you thinking it can get lots worse as a player sans injury). I'd just prefer patience, and I don't think you have to think that way either for the record. Was just wondering why you've went from team patient to do everything to get rid of this guy before it's too late in the span of about a week.

[Scott41theMavs]

Did not read this whole back and forth on KP.  But would like to know if you would trade him for Drummond?  And could we get draft picks in that deal?

You definitely have to get way more than an expiring Drummond. KL would do it with the plan not to keep Drummond, but it's just a KP salary dump. I tend to agree with KL on Drummond (not on trading KP for peanuts/air) that he is not a winning player - never played for a winner, not a guy who will win you games, basically a super version of prime VAJ - and absolutely not someone you want with Luka long-term.

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I think you've possibly gone down a path I've taken at times and worked yourself up about him and can't back down (I got that way about Powell at one time until I realized he was just being put in a role that wasn't best suited for his skill level). Now every little thing he does is a mistake, never getting the benefit of the doubt. 

I'm not saying you're wrong either in all honesty, he for real could be what you're saying (well, other than you thinking it can get lots worse as a player sans injury). I'd just prefer patience, and I don't think you have to think that way either for the record. Was just wondering why you've went from team patient to do everything to get rid of this guy before it's too late in the span of about a week.

In his defense, he's been on the train for a lot longer than a week. Basically since the Portland games in the bubble.