2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[ItsGoTime]

Are we talking about player options? I'm pretty sure you can't put a no-trade-clause in an offer-sheet. 

That's how they got Parsons from the Rockets. Maybe there has been a loop closed to not allow that since then, but it has been done. I believe there can be a large trade bonus put in is what I've seen since then with other contracts which isn't a "No" trade clause, it's just a tougher hurdle to jump. Basically, there are ways to make a max contract harder to swallow than just a straight max contract.

[loki]

I'd want Capella too and also we would need more salary anyway for salary matching.

I would too, but I see no chance of that happening. He's been amazing for Atlanta. They give up 11.5 pts/100 less with him on the floor.

[SleepingHero]

I'd want Capella too and also we would need more salary anyway for salary matching.

Was listening to a Hawks podcast and he said that the Collins-Capela fit hasn't been working out and that Collins needs someone ironically enough like KP to stretch the floor while Collins can roll. 

But finished it off with that there was no chance Dallas trades KP for Capela unless it includes Collins himself, and at that point it doesn't make much sense for either team.

[ItsGoTime]

I would too, but I see no chance of that happening. He's been amazing for Atlanta. They give up 11.5 pts/100 less with him on the floor.

That's why guaranteed future all star with the meteoric rise every year Jalen Brunson goes with KP! 

[DanSchwartzgan]

I'd look for something around KP to Chicago, Markkanen to Atlanta, and Collins to Dallas.

I think Markkanen to Atl. makes sense.  I think the idea from the Mav's perspective is to add Collins to KP, not replace KP with Collins.

I'm thinking more along the lines of:

Hawks get:  Markkanen/Valentine
Mav's get:  Snell/Collins
Bulls get:  Maxi/DFS

The cost of a premium level starter is two cost controlled above average starters.

[omahen]

The cost of a premium level starter is two cost controlled above average starters.

Maxi and DFS are not above average starters, imho. Above average rotation players yes. 

Collins is arguably better than Markkanen, so Hawks would need to get more. Maxi/DFS would be likely ok for Bulls, but assets would need to be attached. Green to Bulls, pick to Atlanta? Or the other way around.

[ItsGoTime]

I think Markkanen to Atl. makes sense.  I think the idea from the Mav's perspective is to add Collins to KP, not replace KP with Collins.

I'm thinking more along the lines of:

Hawks get:  Markkanen/Valentine
Mav's get:  Snell/Collins
Bulls get:  Maxi/DFS

The cost of a premium level starter is two cost controlled above average starters.

I think we'd have to throw in at least a second, if not our last remaining first to ATL. Possibly. I also think Maxi and DFS are not above average starters. At best...to me...they are average, and are probably below average. They are supreme bench players though!

[KillerLeft]

I think Markkanen to Atl. makes sense.  I think the idea from the Mav's perspective is to add Collins to KP, not replace KP with Collins.

I'm thinking more along the lines of:

Hawks get:  Markkanen/Valentine
Mav's get:  Snell/Collins
Bulls get:  Maxi/DFS

The cost of a premium level starter is two cost controlled above average starters.

I buy your sobering viewpoint on the price, but losing Kleber kills this, specific deal for me a bit. The point of adding a starting 4, to me, is to be able to play all four of your bigs, meaning you'd need Powell or WCS to be the outgoing party.

[Tyler]

Was listening to a Hawks podcast and he said that the Collins-Capela fit hasn't been working out and that Collins needs someone ironically enough like KP to stretch the floor while Collins can roll. 

But finished it off with that there was no chance Dallas trades KP for Capela unless it includes Collins himself, and at that point it doesn't make much sense for either team.

Looking at fit on the floor, the most obvious swap for me is Collins for Kleber. Maxi can stretch the floor alongside Capela, and Collins can rim-run next to KP. If I'm Atlanta and don't want to pay Collins the max, Kleber would be a terrific replacement. And Dallas would get a clear starter. Of course I think Dallas would have to include more than just Kleber to get Collins, but that's where I'd probably start. 

One trade I've been thinking about is THJ/Kleber for Bogi/Collins. The teams swap one free agent they may not want to overpay and one under-contract player who they may want to upgrade. Bogi is hurt, but he wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in Atlanta before that and I'm not convinced the rushed marriage was more than an arrangement of convenience after the Milwaukee deal fell apart. Still, I think he'd be a nice fit next to Luka. Atlanta really needs a long-term solution at SG (Reddish just isn't that good), and THJ has a history with the Hawks. Maybe they'd be more interested in his price tag than the one coming for Collins.

[ItsGoTime]

I buy your sobering viewpoint on the price, but losing Kleber kills this, specific deal for me a bit. The point of adding a starting 4, to me, is to be able to play all four of your bigs, meaning you'd need Powell or WCS to be the outgoing party.

To me, IF this is a price they would accept, this trade is a no brainer. Kleber isn't dime a dozen, but we've found him off the scrap heap. THAT is a guy I have confidence that Donnie can find again!

[DanSchwartzgan]

I buy your sobering viewpoint on the price, but losing Kleber kills this, specific deal for me a bit. The point of adding a starting 4, to me, is to be able to play all four of your bigs, meaning you'd need Powell or WCS to be the outgoing party.

Good luck with that.  Neither Atlanta nor Chicago need either of them and any proposal that puts them at the center of a deal that brings back an upgraded starter here isn't a serious proposal.

Pretty clearly Collins is an upgrade over Maxi.  To me, that is the point of the trade.  The nice thing about both Atlanta and Chicago is they are trying to take the leap into relevancy.  So, they probably aren't a candidate for selling off good players for draft picks.  So, then you get into what this looks like in terms of on-court contributions right now.  Maxi has to be included in a deal for the other team's PF.  I think DFS can contribute nicely to either team.  Snell is a band aid to get us to the off season (or give Green more time to grow).  I agree we would be a little shy at backup PF, but Collin's O is diverse enough to play with any of KP, Powell and WCS.

[DanSchwartzgan]

One trade I've been thinking about is THJ/Kleber for Bogi/Collins.  

Now, that is interesting also.  You could also do JRich instead of THJ to help more with perimeter D next to Trae Burke-Young

[omahen]

One trade I've been thinking about is THJ/Kleber for Bogi/Collins.

I don't think they would give up on Bogi this fast. I also don't think there is equal value in this trade. Collins is basically near max player - neither THJ or Kleber are close to this and Bogi is not that negative of a value. But THJ could be interesting for them. If you would have Snell instead of Bogi, than yes. Reddish is crap. Either THJ or Bogi could be a 6th man, they can easily coexist. What I would be most scared of would be Atlanta forcing us to eat Rondo contract.

One possibility: THJ+Maxi+Terry for Collins+Snell+Rondo (I would do it, Mavs can just cut Rondo). It looks fair value wise but might be Atlanta would rather want more quality players than just dumping a bad contract.

Alternative could be THJ+Brunson+asset for Collins+Snell

Or: Kleber+DFS+Brunson for Collins+Snell

[KillerLeft]

and Collins can rim-run next to KP.

Great, except KP has literally said that he prefers to be the guy directly involved in the actions, setting screens, etc. 

If that weren't the case, I'd bet money Powell would've been given first crack at the spot Kleber is occupying right now, and if he played well enough, POOF - problem solved. 

I'm not even disagreeing with you - your plan works. I'm just saying that KP seems to want to play a more central role, paired with a floor spacer. And, to this point, Carlisle seems to be going along with that.

[StepBackJay]

I would for sure do Maxi+ for Collins. Maxi is one of my favorite players but you cash him in if you get a core top 3 guy on your team. Collins would be that. I think Mavs have some ammunition to make this deal happen. Another team might beat it but Mavs can be in the mix for sure.

[ItsGoTime]

Or: Kleber+DFS+Brunson for Collins+Snell

I think this is closer to the value for Collins. It actually might be a bit high for him, but if there are a lot of bidders, I might be willing to go there. Maybe Kleber/JRich for Collins/Snell. That might be exactly what both teams need. Big downgrade from Collins to Kleber for a big upgrade of Snell to JRich.

[omahen]

The nice thing about both Atlanta and Chicago is they are trying to take the leap into relevancy.

I am not so sure about Chicago. They brought a serius coach this season, but result is basically same as last one. Perhaps a minor tweak or two could make them much better, but I am not so sure. They brought two very solid vets last season in Young and Sato which did absolutely nothing to them in terms of more wins. They lack a good wing. Rookie Williams is more of a PF, at least if he doesn't improve his shot. But they have Markkanen at PF. They also need a good PG. White is not it, imho, he is a SG. LaVine might score a lot but the team is not really profitting from that in terms of more wins. Perhaps a really good floor general would sort their problems. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if their management pull some serious rebuilding moves, once they make their plan. I think owner would allow them a rebuild too, if that is what they think its best.

[SleepingHero]

It'd be tough to lose Maxi's defense versatility. 

Sure Collins is a better overall player, but Maxi to me is a glue of sorts. We'd need to be 1000% sure Collins will work out if we're giving up Maxi.

[ItsGoTime]

Great, except KP has literally said that he prefers to be the guy directly involved in the actions, setting screens, etc. 

This is exactly what I thought about when he said that too.

[KillerLeft]

Good luck with that.  Neither Atlanta nor Chicago need either of them and any proposal that puts them at the center of a deal that brings back an upgraded starter here isn't a serious proposal.

Pretty clearly Collins is an upgrade over Maxi.  To me, that is the point of the trade.  The nice thing about both Atlanta and Chicago is they are trying to take the leap into relevancy.  So, they probably aren't a candidate for selling off good players for draft picks.  So, then you get into what this looks like in terms of on-court contributions right now.  Maxi has to be included in a deal for the other team's PF.  I think DFS can contribute nicely to either team.  Snell is a band aid to get us to the off season (or give Green more time to grow).  I agree we would be a little shy at backup PF, but Collin's O is diverse enough to play with any of KP, Powell and WCS.

Yeah, I don't disagree, and so I'm not sure there IS a trade fit with Atlanta I'd like. 

I totally agree that Collins is a MASSIVE upgrade over Kleber, but the result of a deal involving DFS and Kleber leaves you in need of way more tinkering. I suppose it's possible that Collins is worth that. I'm not sure. 

I'm 100% not trying to make Richardson/THJ combo work in the starting/closing lineups anymore, if I can help it. I would be TRYING to push one of them in a package, rather than DFS, if it was up to me. My preference would be Richardson going and THJ staying. You can't tell me that either of them is less valuable than DFS, other than the contract, maybe.

---

I am not so sure about Chicago. They brought a serius coach this season, but result is basically same as last one. Perhaps a minor tweak or two could make them much better, but I am not so sure. They brought two very solid vets last season in Young and Sato which did absolutely nothing to them in terms of more wins. They lack a good wing. Rookie Williams is more of a PF, at least if he doesn't improve his shot. But they have Markkanen at PF. They also need a good PG. White is not it, imho, he is a SG. LaVine might score a lot but the team is not really profitting from that in terms of more wins. Perhaps a really good floor general would sort their problems. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if their management pull some serious rebuilding moves, once they make their plan. I think owner would allow them a rebuild too, if that is what they think its best.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was trying to say yesterday. It's tough to tell who's available there and who's not. You could tell me they're going in any one of 3-4 directions and I'd believe you. That probably means that your "I think they're ALL available" was right on target, but my point is that if THEY know who they want to move, it's not clear to me.